The Mauricio Pochettino thread

[dontcallme]

I thought our team was mentally weak?

I kind of feel like the film Inside Out was based on Yankspur.

Just one emotion at a time takes over.

 

[dontcallme]

I don’t prescribe to the view he has lost the entire dressing room. I do believe he has lost support from a few players though and there is a split.

I do think Poch has possibly taken us as far as he can. It makes me sad to think that, but the league cup exit was dreadful and for a club like us, to continually miss out on winning domestic trophies isn’t good enough.

I do hope Poch stays this season and takes us into the top 3, but for me it will then be time to says our goodbyes and get another coach in. He’d have been at the club for 6 years by then and not won a single trophy. I don’t think that’s good enough really.
There’s no reason why we can’t get top 4 and win a trophy. They aren’t mutually exclusive but we keep missing out and you just feel that under Poch it is just never going to happen.

Agree with your first point but on the fence with Poch staying.

If Poch is up for the challenge of a rebuild then I hope he stays.

We simply don’t know if his heart is still in it or if he has it in him to rebuild.

Not winning a trophy is disappointing but the consistency of performances until recently has been more important.

Consistent CL qualification allows the funds required for a rebuild and not having to rely as heavily on sales.

 

[Shadydan]

I don’t prescribe to the view he has lost the entire dressing room. I do believe he has lost support from a few players though and there is a split.

I do think Poch has possibly taken us as far as he can. It makes me sad to think that, but the league cup exit was dreadful and for a club like us, to continually miss out on winning domestic trophies isn’t good enough.

I do hope Poch stays this season and takes us into the top 3, but for me it will then be time to says our goodbyes and get another coach in. He’d have been at the club for 6 years by then and not won a single trophy. I don’t think that’s good enough really.

There’s no reason why we can’t get top 4 and win a trophy. They aren’t mutually exclusive but we keep missing out and you just feel that under Poch it is just never going to happen.

I think he has taken this group of players as far as he can, or some of them namely the ones that were meant to leave in the summer and will probably leave next season but I don't agree that he's done at the club, no way! Despite all the turmoil and doom and gloom this week which has been typically over exaggerated he still has players fighting for him and wanting to put a shift in.

 

[Primativ]

I would be surprised if Levy is backing him in the transfer market so strongly if it isn't without some firm commitment from Poch. Levy has had enough it seems of spending money just to have to change the coaching team and then have another complete overhaul of the squad.

The players we’ve signed last summer any top coach would want in their team...

 

[BedfordshireSpud]

If my Boss at work said he was going to have a clear out and I was in the firing line l’m sure i’d be disgruntled too. A lot of the mischief going round smacks of the outgoing players and their agents (they are paid well to) making noise on the way out. It gets worse as the players staying get their deals. We were warned by Poch that it was going to be painful, and performance is bound to dip in the short term as we go through the transformation. The bits of bad luck we have had with injuries hasn’t helped either.

The whingers who think major change can happen without pain are just not being realistic. Poch is an emotional soul, and a lot of his rhetoric has been him steeling himself for the pain. I’m glad he has stayed and we need to get behind him so that he can see things through.

 

[The Doc]

If my Boss at work said he was going to have a clear out and I was in the firing line l’m sure i’d be disgruntled too. A lot of the mischief going round smacks of the outgoing players and their agents (they are paid well to) making noise on the way out. It gets worse as the players staying get their deals. We were warned by Poch that it was going to be painful, and performance is bound to dip in the short term as we go through the transformation. The bits of bad luck we have had with injuries hasn’t helped either.

The whingers who think major change can happen without pain are just not being realistic. Poch is an emotional soul, and a lot of his rhetoric has been him steeling himself for the pain. I’m glad he has stayed and we need to get behind him so that he can see things through.

Yep. Note Jenas saying that Poch needed the players out, and more in (than he actually got). Not sure about that second bit. Trying to integrate 5 or more in one window is too much imo. If we're genuinely backing him then I would hope DL is aware it's 2-3 windows work. No short-term fixes.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

The players we’ve signed last summer any top coach would want in their team...

It's hard to say that so far Lo Celso has hardly kicked a ball for us - Sessegnon hasn't - Ndombele is alright going forward but struggles a bit defensively at the moment. Early days for them all but they haven't ripped any trees between them as yet

 

[Mr Pink]

I thought we played well against Leicester and should of won the game. That was incredibly unfair/unlucky the way that game turned on a couple of mm's.

They wernt coming back from 2-0 and we should of had the benefit of the doubt.

So there's been improvement in the last two games, in the league at least, and with Ndombele getting better by the week I think we'll kick on from here even if certain issues need 'managed'.

Yesterday can only of helped in that regard.

 

[Primativ]

It's hard to say that so far Lo Celso has hardly kicked a ball for us - Sessegnon hasn't - Ndombele is alright going forward but struggles a bit defensively at the moment. Early days for them all but they haven't ripped any trees between them as yet

That’s not what I meant. On paper they are three good players with potential so levy signing them isn’t just for the benefit of Poch. If a new manager came in he is hardly going to be bothered that we have those three in our squad.

 

[spids]

It really shows how keeping nearly all of the the first team squad the same for so long under the same manager is not healthy. For example, yesterday's team and subs, nearly all of them have been here since Poch started.

Pochettino (in 6th season)

Lloris (in 8th season)
Rose (in 13th year with club, in 7th season in first team)
Alderweireld (in 5th season)
Vertonghen (in 8th season)
Aurier (in 3rd season)
Winks (in 6th year as a pro with club, in 3rd season in the first team)
Sissoko (in 4th season)
Ndombele (in 1st season)
Eriksen (in 7th season)
Son (in 5th season)
Kane (in 10th year as a pro with club, 6th season in the first team)

Dier (in 6th season)
Lamela (in 7th season)
Wanyama (in 4th season)

Sir Alex Ferguson used to refresh his teams every 3 or 4 years. Hughes, Ince, Staam, Keane, Van Nistelrooy, Beckham - mostly sold when they were at the end of their peak and no longer 100% behind the manager. Excluding Winks and Kane - home grown in a similar way to the United 'Fergie Fledglings' - Lloris, Rose, Eriksen and maybe Vertonghen are all due a change. They are all in their 6th season under Poch. Surely the message, the training, the tactics, the shock methods, etc. all become stale. We should have got rid of Eriksen last summer when he wasn't committing to a new contract. Lloris could have gone a year ago too, and he had a very inconsistent season last year.

​

 

[daveduvet]

I thought we played well against Leicester and should of won the game. That was incredibly unfair/unlucky the way that game turned on a couple of mm's.

They wernt coming back from 2-0 and we should of had the benefit of the doubt.

So there's been in improvement in the last two games, in the league at least, and with Ndombele getting better by the week I think we'll kick on from here even if certain issues need 'managed'.

Yesterday can only of helped in that regard.

Agree. Yesterday we were far from our best but overcoming 5-10 of self inflicted football would’ve done us some good...

 

[For the love of Spurs]

It really shows how keeping nearly all of the the first team squad the same for so long under the same manager is not healthy. For example, yesterday's team and subs, nearly all of them have been here since Poch started.

Pochettino (in 6th season)

Lloris (in 8th season)
Rose (in 13th year with club, in 7th season in first team)
Alderweireld (in 5th season)
Vertonghen (in 8th season)
Aurier (in 3rd season)
Winks (in 6th year as a pro with club, in 3rd season in the first team)
Sissoko (in 4th season)
Ndombele (in 1st season)
Eriksen (in 7th season)
Son (in 5th season)
Kane (in 10th year as a pro with club, 6th season in the first team)

Dier (in 6th season)
Lamela (in 7th season)
Wanyama (in 4th season)

Sir Alex Ferguson used to refresh his teams every 3 or 4 years. Hughes, Ince, Staam, Keane, Van Nistelrooy, Beckham - mostly sold when they were at the end of their peak and no longer 100% behind the manager. Excluding Winks and Kane - home grown in a similar way to the United 'Fergie Fledglings' - Lloris, Rose, Eriksen and maybe Vertonghen are all due a change. They are all in their 6th season under Poch. Surely the message, the training, the tactics, the shock methods, etc. all become stale. We should have got rid of Eriksen last summer when he wasn't committing to a new contract. Lloris could have gone a year ago too, and he had a very inconsistent season last year.

​

Don’t disagree with that. I am not a Levy out man, however his need to it seems always get a bargain and sell at the highest price I feel helps to enable this situation of getting a stale squad.

If Poch wants a player gone they need to be gone even if we lose 5-10m in the process to what we might get potentially at maximum price because the damage it does to the team.

Next two windows we have to be moving players and getting new players at a good pace so we can finish rebuilding by the time next season comes.

 

[Phomesy]

There’s no reason why we can’t get top 4 and win a trophy. They aren’t mutually exclusive but we keep missing out and you just feel that under Poch it is just never going to happen.

This seems counter intuitive to me. Under Poch we've got to a point where we are consistently putting ourselves in positions to win these things. Not just Top 4 placings but actually in title races for long periods. Not just making CL but making a CL Final. A League Cup semi-final last year. FA Cup semis before that.

Is it your contention that our squad is so good that we automatically should be reaching these things and it's Pochettino who is to blame for us not making the final step?

 

[soflapaul]

I don’t prescribe to the view he has lost the entire dressing room. I do believe he has lost support from a few players though and there is a split.

The reduction of cohesion over the years certainly makes it look like it is probable that there is some kind of split in the dressing room. What isn't clear is whether Poch caused the split, was incapable of bridging it or didn't care to fix it. there have been enough issues (running down contracts, his lack of commitment during interviews) to rumors (players thinking the training to hard, training ground bust ups, and others that won't get mentioned) that it is speculative to lay blame the cohesion issue on him but it is his to fix with DL. If he can't fix the problem by any method then his days are numbered. I'm in the camp that he can fix it enough to bring us back to attractive, winning football. But i'm far from certain on that. What is pretty clear though is that he is still learning on the job and isn't the finished article. That's okay as long as he is learning.

 

[Gassin's finest]

The Star writers clearly read this forum.

Maybe someone could float the idea that Ian Holloway might be lined up to take over in case Poch leaves. What a 3 month stint that would be ...

Campaign starts here

 

[sausage]

It really shows how keeping nearly all of the the first team squad the same for so long under the same manager is not healthy. For example, yesterday's team and subs, nearly all of them have been here since Poch started.

Pochettino (in 6th season)

Lloris (in 8th season)
Rose (in 13th year with club, in 7th season in first team)
Alderweireld (in 5th season)
Vertonghen (in 8th season)
Aurier (in 3rd season)
Winks (in 6th year as a pro with club, in 3rd season in the first team)
Sissoko (in 4th season)
Ndombele (in 1st season)
Eriksen (in 7th season)
Son (in 5th season)
Kane (in 10th year as a pro with club, 6th season in the first team)

Dier (in 6th season)
Lamela (in 7th season)
Wanyama (in 4th season)

Sir Alex Ferguson used to refresh his teams every 3 or 4 years. Hughes, Ince, Staam, Keane, Van Nistelrooy, Beckham - mostly sold when they were at the end of their peak and no longer 100% behind the manager. Excluding Winks and Kane - home grown in a similar way to the United 'Fergie Fledglings' - Lloris, Rose, Eriksen and maybe Vertonghen are all due a change. They are all in their 6th season under Poch. Surely the message, the training, the tactics, the shock methods, etc. all become stale. We should have got rid of Eriksen last summer when he wasn't committing to a new contract. Lloris could have gone a year ago too, and he had a very inconsistent season last year.

​

I think you've taken the data and found the opposite of the reality.

Ferguson refreshed his teams, but the key was that the core team stayed the same. The peak of the SAF reign was when he had a pretty settled and consistent team, and added a first-team player into an area of requirement.

Schmeichel, Neville, Neville, Pallister, Scholes, Butt, Keane, Giggs, Beckham, Solskjaer, van Nistelrooy etc. were key to success - things went the other way when they weren't replaced in the correct way.

The exact same thing happened with Wenger - for the most part, Wenger had the most success using the team that he inherited from Graham/Rioch, sprinkled with the likes of Bergkamp and Viera. When Adams, Dixon, Seaman etc. retired and weren't replaced for the long term, that's when it started to go wrong.


The only consistency in our problems is that we are still relying on a quarter of our starting 11 who have imminently expiring contracts.

 

[spids]

I think you've taken the data and found the opposite of the reality.

Disagree. Fergie refreshed his side many, many times. Every 3 years he changed two or three core first team players to keep the group fresh. We haven't done that. If Fergie had been in charge of us I am convinced he would have changed at least three of the players who have been here as long as Poch has. I'm not saying you cannot have players stay and be successful, I am saying the group needs to be freshened up every so often. We've done it this summer, once Lo Celso, Sessegnon and Ndombele are playing regularly then I think we'll see renewed energy in the team. But we haven't done it the last few years and it shows.

 

[allatsea]

I think you've taken the data and found the opposite of the reality.

Ferguson refreshed his teams, but the key was that the core team stayed the same. The peak of the SAF reign was when he had a pretty settled and consistent team, and added a first-team player into an area of requirement.

Schmeichel, Neville, Neville, Pallister, Scholes, Butt, Keane, Giggs, Beckham, Solskjaer, van Nistelrooy etc. were key to success - things went the other way when they weren't replaced in the correct way.

The exact same thing happened with Wenger - for the most part, Wenger had the most success using the team that he inherited from Graham/Rioch, sprinkled with the likes of Bergkamp and Viera. When Adams, Dixon, Seaman etc. retired and weren't replaced for the long term, that's when it started to go wrong.


The only consistency in our problems is that we are still relying on a quarter of our starting 11 who have imminently expiring contracts.

We now have the problem of replacing in short order Toby, Vertonghen and Rose. Our efforts so far of replacing the CDs remain to be polite a work in progress. I don’t think it is possible to get like for like with Toby and Vertonghen so we are bound to go backwards in that area. I do believe however we should be able to improve at fullback. Rose can get forward OK but his crosses and attacking passes into the opposition penalty area are usually fails. Aurier is an accident waiting to happen and KWP has not shown he can compete consistently at this level.

With the ridiculous contracts the players have these days they are becoming very hard to move on when the club would like or they simply refuse to move waiting for their contract to run down. SAF didn’t really have to deal with these issues. As you mention in your post both of the most successful managers of the PL era failed miserably to update their squads towards the end of their riens. I have always suspected that to some degree SAF did this deliberately.

 

[sausage]

Man U under Fergie were successful for the best part of 20 years. He refreshed the squad many times. Only a few stayed for more than 5 years, and typically the home grown ones.

Schmeichel: Joined age 27, left age 35 (8 years)
Denis Irwin: Joined age 25, left age 37 (12 years)
Gary Neville: First game at 17, left age 36 (19 years)
Phil Nevile: First game at 17, left age 28 (11 years)
David May: Joined at 24, left age 33 (9 years)
Ronny Johnsen: Joined at 30, left age 36 (6 years)
Wes Brown: First game at 17, left age 32 (15 years)

David Beckham: First game at 17, left aged 28 (11 years)
Nicky Butt: First game at 17, left age 29 (12 years)
Roy Keane: Joined at 22, left age 34 (12 years)
Ryan Giggs: First game at 17, left aged 40 (23 years)
Paul Scholes: First game at 19, left aged 37, then came back again for one season (19 years)

Past this point it's just boring. It's the majority of them who he kept as long as he could.

 

[Gb160]

Past this point it's just boring.

The entire conversation is just boring.