The ousting of Daniel (COYS)

[vegassd]

There was a conversation in another thread a few weeks back which pretty much explains how people can continue defending Levy and the way we operate.

They treat every situation as a brand new event and completely ignore history and patterns.

Yes, there's still a day left. Yes, it makes sense saying to wait for the window to close. Yes, they can conjure up some reason why every deal that falls through can't get done.

But look at it with the context of of modus operandi for the past 20 years and people can reasonably predict how this ends. We've seen the story so many times before. This window isn't any different - we're likely to leave ourselves short, we're playing a game of brinkmanship that we'll likely lose.

Some can remain optimistic if they wish but given history, others are right to be skeptical.

But we'll be here again next window. The same posters will get agitated at the way we operate and voice their frustrations, the same posters will talk down to them and tell them stop bed wetting and wait until the window is closed and we'll rinse and repeat, treating each window as if we don't know how it'll end.

I've said before this club will ever be united under this chairman. He clearly won't change the way he operates. Some fans will never trust him. Some fans will defend him to the end. And it'll be a constant battle of the BSODL vs the Bed Wetters -on here and in other parts of the internet.

It's a shame and it's tiresome.

I think part of the problem is that there are some pretty reasonable posters like yourself, but then there are some extreme outliers as well. I think lots of people create an "us vs. them" scenario between those two groups of more extreme views, and it's like nobody is allowed to exist anywhere between.

There's also a problem when people make a leap from somebody defending an individual decision/point of view, to that person defending everything that Levy has ever done. It's a complete conversation killer and should be obvious that it isn't true.

I agree with you that we can look at the past to inform opinions about the present, but that shouldn't be done as an exclusive thing. It typically makes me smile when people use the "20 years" line because I think that ignores the change of status at Spurs over that time, and the huge changes that have happened in the PL during that time as well.

I personally think that we act very differently now than even 10 years ago, but I also think that the landscape has changed drastically. If anything, I think we are less well suited to the current football climate than we were 10 years ago. So to me, if somebody says "we have acted the same way for 20 years" I would disagree with that. Doesn't mean I'm defending Levy... if anything the opposite would be true.

As a final observation, I totally agree that we will be in the same situation next window. I actually find it really bizarre that people work themselves up so much each time! But something that annoys me (and I'm sure others) is when people post Levy stuff every time anything remotely bad happens between now and then - even when there is decent evidence that contradicts them.

I'm not saying there should be no discussion of Levy outside of transfer windows of course - but I think it's those constant "stick beatings" that form a back drop to lots of the frustration that people have. For me at least. I don't think that's ever going to change, but I hope it might illuminate the situation a little for people who are surprised by what they see as a "Levy defence".

I don't think it's always defending Levy... sometimes it's trying to decrease the amount of anti-Levy spam that can clog up threads. I think it's very rational to be skeptical of our transfer business - I am myself - but we all know there are some who go very overboard.

Here's hoping we get some good news today one way or another.

 

[eViL]

It feels like Christmas Eve in here tonight - the night before the big meltdown.
Is everyone looking forward to it?.....1 more sleep

It's like Santa comes and rather than gives presents, takes away your hopes and dreams.

Apologists need to focus on the scum, our closest rivals, not the doped clubs. We don’t compare well at all.

We've finished above them six of the past seven seasons.

Great bants.

My love/hate for this forum has never been stronger than it is this year.

The real fans, (that get where we are at right now), are more fed up of the plastic fans (that wish we were Man City), than they are of Levy.

 

[Colonel Dax]

We've finished above them six of the past seven seasons.

Indeed, instead of solidifying our dominance, we've inadvertently permitted them to narrow the gap and potentially even surpass us. Our lack of progress and a series of questionable decisions have brought us to this point. While they secured a Champions League qualification after many years, they haven't rested on their achievements. Instead, they've proactively recognized their shortcomings and taken steps to address them. This is in contrast to our approach, where we seemingly didn't make the same effort despite years of consistent Champions League revenue.

 

[RuskyM]

Great bants.

My love/hate for this forum has never been stronger than it is this year.

The real fans, (that get where we are at right now), are more fed up of the plastic fans (that wish we were Man City), than they are of Levy.

I’m mostly just exhausted that after four years of watching dour football to “win”, where we kept spending loads of money on players that we now can’t shift, we finally seem to have turned a corner into being a club I look forward to watching again, and our fans are complaining that we’re not spending loads of money on players.

I don’t want us to be Chelsea or City or Newcastle. I want us to be us. Ange is our best way of doing that, yet the negativity seems to be everywhere again.

 

[eViL]

I’m mostly just exhausted that after four years of watching dour football to “win”, where we kept spending loads of money on players that we now can’t shift, we finally seem to have turned a corner into being a club I look forward to watching again, and our fans are complaining that we’re not spending loads of money on players.

I don’t want us to be Chelsea or City or Newcastle. I want us to be us. Ange is our best way of doing that, yet the negativity seems to be everywhere again.

Love it mate. Completely agree.

 

[alamo]

I thought yesterday was deadline day, saw no signings and poked my nose in here expecting an absolute shitstorm.

Right, see you same time tomorrow......

 

[RuskyM]

Indeed, instead of solidifying our dominance, we've inadvertently permitted them to narrow the gap and potentially even surpass us. Our lack of progress and a series of questionable decisions have brought us to this point. While they secured a Champions League qualification after many years, they haven't rested on their achievements. Instead, they've proactively recognized their shortcomings and taken steps to address them. This is in contrast to our approach, where we seemingly didn't make the same effort despite years of consistent Champions League revenue.

‘Potentially surpass us’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. We’ll see how their addressing of shortcomings goes by the end of the season, because I really wouldn't be surprised if they're below us by the end.

The last four years were entirely us trying to address our shortcomings by hiring expensive managers and completely sacrificing how we want to play to try and win. I'm not saying this is what you're doing at all but this is my issue with the anti-ENIC wave: despite the obvious mistakes they've made (there's been plenty), they seem to be this shapeless entity that can be blamed for everything (usually after we lose a game). Levy can't both have rested on his laurels *and* hired Mourinho/Conte; he can't have not invested in the club *and* bought in Ndombele, Reguilon, Lo Celso etc who are now the "deadwood" we can't shift because their wages are too high.

 

[cliff jones]

We've finished above them six of the past seven seasons.

History. They finished above us for much longer than that/ have won trophies / fully backed their latest manager

 

[Styopa]

‘Potentially surpass us’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. We’ll see how their addressing of shortcomings goes by the end of the season, because I really wouldn't be surprised if they're below us by the end.

The last four years were entirely us trying to address our shortcomings by hiring expensive managers and completely sacrificing how we want to play to try and win. I'm not saying this is what you're doing at all but this is my issue with the anti-ENIC wave: despite the obvious mistakes they've made (there's been plenty), they seem to be this shapeless entity that can be blamed for everything (usually after we lose a game). Levy can't both have rested on his laurels *and* hired Mourinho/Conte; he can't have not invested in the club *and* bought in Ndombele, Reguilon, Lo Celso etc who are now the "deadwood" we can't shift because their wages are too high.

I think part of the problem with ENIC is they do things by half measures.

For example they bring in Mourinho/Conte but hiring that type of manager is no good unless you give them exactly the kind of players they want. If they wanted to stick to the system of buying young, high potential players why hire coaches like Mourinho and Conte?

 

[funkycoldmedina]

I think part of the problem with ENIC is they do things by half measures.

For example they bring in Mourinho/Conte but hiring that type of manager is no good unless you give them exactly the kind of players they want. If they wanted to stick to the system of buying young, high potential players why hire coaches like Mourinho and Conte?

That to me is a perfectly valid stick to beat them with. It was an incoherent and poorly thought out strategy which has set us back 5 years

 

[RuskyM]

History. They finished above us for much longer than that/ have won trophies / fully backed their latest manager

It's in the past so it doesn't matter, but their accomplishments in the past do matter?

 

[thelak]

We've finished above them six of the past seven seasons.

Do you think we will finish above them in 6 of the next 7 seasons?

 

[thelak]

I think part of the problem is that there are some pretty reasonable posters like yourself, but then there are some extreme outliers as well. I think lots of people create an "us vs. them" scenario between those two groups of more extreme views, and it's like nobody is allowed to exist anywhere between.

There's also a problem when people make a leap from somebody defending an individual decision/point of view, to that person defending everything that Levy has ever done. It's a complete conversation killer and should be obvious that it isn't true.

I agree with you that we can look at the past to inform opinions about the present, but that shouldn't be done as an exclusive thing. It typically makes me smile when people use the "20 years" line because I think that ignores the change of status at Spurs over that time, and the huge changes that have happened in the PL during that time as well.

I personally think that we act very differently now than even 10 years ago, but I also think that the landscape has changed drastically. If anything, I think we are less well suited to the current football climate than we were 10 years ago. So to me, if somebody says "we have acted the same way for 20 years" I would disagree with that. Doesn't mean I'm defending Levy... if anything the opposite would be true.

As a final observation, I totally agree that we will be in the same situation next window. I actually find it really bizarre that people work themselves up so much each time! But something that annoys me (and I'm sure others) is when people post Levy stuff every time anything remotely bad happens between now and then - even when there is decent evidence that contradicts them.

I'm not saying there should be no discussion of Levy outside of transfer windows of course - but I think it's those constant "stick beatings" that form a back drop to lots of the frustration that people have. For me at least. I don't think that's ever going to change, but I hope it might illuminate the situation a little for people who are surprised by what they see as a "Levy defence".

I don't think it's always defending Levy... sometimes it's trying to decrease the amount of anti-Levy spam that can clog up threads. I think it's very rational to be skeptical of our transfer business - I am myself - but we all know there are some who go very overboard.

Here's hoping we get some good news today one way or another.

Some good points here

I think the basic issue is Levy has been unable to get his head around the inflation in transfer fees and what “value” represents in the current market

yet he he is happy to massively overvalue the club and our own players

which suggests despite his academic pedigree he doesn’t grasp basics like Supply and demand when acting as a buyer and only as a seller

 

[chas vs dave]

Do you think we will finish above them in 6 of the next 7 seasons?

No one knows. If we get our act together, then yes. We have the finances to, they can't keep splurging.

I doubt we will this season. However, it's a complete unknown.

Some good points here

I think the basic issue is Levy has been unable to get his head around the inflation in transfer fees and what “value” represents in the current market

yet he he is happy to massively overvalue the club and our own players

which suggests despite his academic pedigree he doesn’t grasp basics like Supply and demand when acting as a buyer and only as a seller

Hasn't he got a degree in land economics from Cambridge? You'd think they'd teach the basics

 

[spurs-r-us]

If we really don't spend any of the Kane money, I'm fully on board with what you lot are preaching. Unforgivable if he thinks some nice football at last will make the fans forget.

 

[jimbo]

‘Potentially surpass us’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. We’ll see how their addressing of shortcomings goes by the end of the season, because I really wouldn't be surprised if they're below us by the end.

The last four years were entirely us trying to address our shortcomings by hiring expensive managers and completely sacrificing how we want to play to try and win. I'm not saying this is what you're doing at all but this is my issue with the anti-ENIC wave: despite the obvious mistakes they've made (there's been plenty), they seem to be this shapeless entity that can be blamed for everything (usually after we lose a game). Levy can't both have rested on his laurels *and* hired Mourinho/Conte; he can't have not invested in the club *and* bought in Ndombele, Reguilon, Lo Celso etc who are now the "deadwood" we can't shift because their wages are too high.

I think the idea that Arsenal haven't overtaken us is pretty optimistic, but I also think that appointing a manager like Big Ange is a step in the right direction.

The issue for me is that we don't seem to have a strategy that we're working to. Our squad is disjointed because we've employed different styles of managers and signed a mix of players that match those styles and some opportunistic punts. The contrast with Arsenal is that they seem to target players they've identified as improving their first XI, then they go and get that player if they can - only moving on to a different target if they absolutely have to. Whereas we seem to value signings for a host of non-football reasons, we look at squad players and we get ourselves in a mess. It seems we're never quite willing to fully commit to a style, a manager, or a plan.

It's not about how much we've spent or not spent, who we've signed or not signed, it's the lack of coherence in strategy - such a lack of coherence that it points to the board not having a strategy for the football club at all. Again, hopefully Big Ange is a step in the right direction, but we still have to back him properly and that's the part this board tend to be bad at.

 

[faymantaray]

I keep reading stuff like this but why should we stop showing our love of being Spurs fans because we dislike our owners. I don’t think I’d be able to tell my 12 year old son that he can’t have a Spurs shirt because we’re trying to show the owners that we want them to leave!

Try this instead: You can’t have a Spurs shirt because it’s cheap tack that you pay 90 pounds for, just for the privilege of walking around with a bunch of ads plastered all over you. It’s a scam.

 

[alfie103]

I’m mostly just exhausted that after four years of watching dour football to “win”, where we kept spending loads of money on players that we now can’t shift, we finally seem to have turned a corner into being a club I look forward to watching again, and our fans are complaining that we’re not spending loads of money on players.

I don’t want us to be Chelsea or City or Newcastle. I want us to be us. Ange is our best way of doing that, yet the negativity seems to be everywhere again.

What is 'us' though? Is it where the main focus is on playing entertaining football?

 

[Colonel Dax]

‘Potentially surpass us’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. We’ll see how their addressing of shortcomings goes by the end of the season, because I really wouldn't be surprised if they're below us by the end.

The last four years were entirely us trying to address our shortcomings by hiring expensive managers and completely sacrificing how we want to play to try and win. I'm not saying this is what you're doing at all but this is my issue with the anti-ENIC wave: despite the obvious mistakes they've made (there's been plenty), they seem to be this shapeless entity that can be blamed for everything (usually after we lose a game). Levy can't both have rested on his laurels *and* hired Mourinho/Conte; he can't have not invested in the club *and* bought in Ndombele, Reguilon, Lo Celso etc who are now the "deadwood" we can't shift because their wages are too high.

You've made a valid observation, and I believe this ties into the issue with Levy's approach, or the absence of a clear one. It appears to be consistently reactive. For instance, making significant investments in Ndombele and Lo Celso during the final stages of the Pochettino era after enduring dry transfer windows, and subsequently appointing pragmatic coaches like Jose and Conte who could extract the last ounces of performance from a fatigued and stagnant squad. It seems like a response to circumstances rather than a well-thought-out plan. In my view, it's not so much about being frugal, but more about what appears to be a somewhat chaotic and haphazard decision-making process.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

You've made a valid observation, and I believe this ties into the issue with Levy's approach, or the absence of a clear one. It appears to be consistently reactive. For instance, making significant investments in Ndombele and Lo Celso during the final stages of the Pochettino era after enduring dry transfer windows, and subsequently appointing pragmatic coaches like Jose and Conte who could extract the last ounces of performance from a fatigued and stagnant squad. It seems like a response to circumstances rather than a well-thought-out plan. In my view, it's not so much about being frugal, but more about what appears to be a somewhat chaotic and haphazard decision-making process.

I 100% agree with this but where we probably differ is that I see a move to rectify that with Paratici, Munn and most importantly Ange. The transfers seem to have moved more towards what we've done well in the past