The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

[nicdic]

It just doesn't work like that and you know it. It's never a case of just outperforming in training, and in this case it's definitely not that simple. Aurier is a good RB, but he's as good as he is now because he started playing regular first team football when he was 17. If Aurier performs well in games it doesn't matter who plays best in training KWP will not get picked ahead of him. Just like if Kane had a bad week and Janssen was great in training, Kane isn't getting dropped for the PL game at the weekend.

I don't expect KWP to outperform Aurier in training or in matches most weeks right now, or for a year or two. But what needs to happen is he needs the time that Aurier got when he was at the same development stage, and during that time I expect KWP to be a mixed bag of not as good as Aurier is right now some weeks, as good as he is right now occasionally and a couple of times showing glimpses of being better, but at no time do I think he will be a liability. he's a better FB now than Davies is, and Davies hasn't cost us much. And gradually I expect those ratios to switch, and after a couple of seasons I expect him to be as good as Aurier at least most weeks, better than him quite a few games and not as good as him the odd game.

It's never going to be as simple for development kids that they will just magically one day be so much "better in training" that they will oust a good senior player ahead of them. Because it's loads of regular match experience that's made that senior player the rounded player he is.


And Sissoko was still given much more game time than Onomah or Edwards despite being a vastly, and I mean vastly inferior footballer, and he's another player I have seen a shitload of, inc way before he got to England.

So what do you suggest we actually do. Scrap the academy? Let them play elsewhere? Loan them all out?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So what do you suggest we actually do. Scrap the academy? Let them play elsewhere? Loan them all out?

Much simpler than that, when we think they are of a high calibre, just just start integrating them into the first team, and see how they progress. No different to what we do with every player we sign, many of whom look erratic and inconsistent and often take at least a season to show their best form etc. And who often don't pan out to be of the required top level standard.

I'm only talking about 3/4 players over the course of the last 4/5 years. Not a wholesale merging of youth and first team.

And by integrating, i don't mean play every first team game, i mean s gradual stepping up of exposure, sub, minor cup, major cup, league etc

 

[Blake Griffin]

uefa youth league squad (via @thfcacademy):

edit: just noticed that binks, madueke and white(all u16) are also in. though i can't see there being any need for them given the numbers involved already.

my ideal matchday squad from that lot would be along the lines of -

austin
eyoma tanganga brown
hinds skipp tob tsaroulla
edwards shashoua
sterling

subs: de bie, lyons-foster, marsh, bennetts, patterson, roles, griffiths​

 

[BC11]

uefa youth league squad (via @thfcacademy):

edit: just noticed that binks, madueke and white(all u16) are also in. though i can't see there being any need for them given the numbers involved already.

my ideal matchday squad from that lot would be along the lines of -

austin
eyoma tanganga brown
hinds skipp tob tsaroulla
edwards shashoua
sterling

subs: de bie, lyons-foster, marsh, bennetts, patterson, roles, griffiths​

Would like to see that team too, but they've selected Marsh as an overage player so reckon they'll play him (and probably as captain too).

 

[Bulletspur]

I understand your frustration but as I mentioned a good few pages back in this thread there is a possibility for KWP to still play a good few games this season. If we make it to the CL final, the FA cup final & the League Cup final then we'll play 59 games (assuming no replays). We know that Poch likes to rotate his fullbacks so if he split them evenly between Trippier & Aurier then its 29/30. But I can see a scenario where KWP could be given a carefully selected 5th of the games, giving him 11/12 games. Which still leaves 23/24 for Aurier and Tripper. Obviously for every knockout round that we miss out on that reduces the pool of games. Optimistic, maybe but possible.
As big a fan as I am of KWP its hard for me to be negative about the Aurier signing. Terrific player.

I agree with this point. .I see KWP as having a much higher ceiling and I'm confident of seeing improvements from him in the coming months/years.. However, I dont see much further improvement from Trippier.

When Aurier gets up to speed and if there are no on/off field issues with him, then I see us moving Trippier on next season.

I am betting that KWP will feature more prominently as he will take the No 2 spot from Trippier, a player I always thought as average, playing in a good team (us). KWP got this, I would more worry about Trippier, which I am not!

Agreed. The challenge for KWP is to move ahead of Trippier this season. Surplant him and become Aurier's deputy.

 

[nicdic]

Much simpler than that, when we think they are of a high calibre, just just start integrating them into the first team, and see how they progress. No different to what we do with every player we sign, many of whom look erratic and inconsistent and often take at least a season to show their best form etc. And who often don't pan out to be of the required top level standard.

I'm only talking about 3/4 players over the course of the last 4/5 years. Not a wholesale merging of youth and first team.

And by integrating, i don't mean play every first team game, i mean s gradual stepping up of exposure, sub, minor cup, major cup, league etc

Is that different to what goes on? Is it just you want them doing that from an earlier age?

 

[Bulletspur]

Is that different to what goes on? Is it just you want them doing that from an earlier age?

Yes it is different. While agree with most of what you say, I understand @Bus-Conductor stance as there were a few matches last season where we were 3, 4 and even 5 goals up in matches where we couldn't lose, we had Onomah on the bench, and instead of using the opportunity to give him a good run out, Poch chose to put on Sissoko instead. The same applied to N'koudou (I know he is not a young player from the academy). Opportunities were missed a few times to give them credible playing times, in their preferred positions.

 

[chinaman]

After a couple of good seasons, it is highly likely somebody bigger than us will turn Aurier's head, and he'll do a Walker on us. Hope that by then, KWP will be ready to step up.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

After a couple of good seasons, it is highly likely somebody bigger than us will turn Aurier's head, and he'll do a Walker on us. Hope that by then, KWP will be ready to step up.

I think its more likely that we sell Trippier next summer - assuming KWP shows he's ready.

 

[Sweech]

I understand your frustration but as I mentioned a good few pages back in this thread there is a possibility for KWP to still play a good few games this season. If we make it to the CL final, the FA cup final & the League Cup final then we'll play 59 games (assuming no replays). We know that Poch likes to rotate his fullbacks so if he split them evenly between Trippier & Aurier then its 29/30. But I can see a scenario where KWP could be given a carefully selected 5th of the games, giving him 11/12 games. Which still leaves 23/24 for Aurier and Tripper. Obviously for every knockout round that we miss out on that reduces the pool of games. Optimistic, maybe but possible.
As big a fan as I am of KWP its hard for me to be negative about the Aurier signing. Terrific player.

KWP can also play on the left and I would t be surprised if we saw him there several times this season. I'm essentially looking at him as our "swing wingback" who will slide in on either side to spell players for rest and injury this season.

Then as others have said he should become the backup RB and Trippier be moved on.

 

[Sweech]

Yes it is different. While agree with most of what you say, I understand @Bus-Conductor stance as there were a few matches last season where we were 3, 4 and even 5 goals up in matches where we couldn't lose, we had Onomah on the bench, and instead of using the opportunity to give him a good run out, Poch chose to put on Sissoko instead. The same applied to N'koudou (I know he is not a young player from the academy). Opportunities were missed a few times to give them credible playing times, in their preferred positions.

This is just personal opinion but I never agree with giving youth a run out during games where we're that far ahead. It's a non-realistic playing situation. Your players often aren't playing as hard as they normally would and neither are the opposition. Or if they are they're leaving such massive gaps and spaces by pushing players forward that it again creates an unrealistic game state for the player. If that's their only experience then they're not really learning what an actual game is like. Then if they had to come on in a real situation passing lanes that they thought were normally open, the time and space they think they have on the ball etc. would be so massively different. It would be like prepping someone for an advanced calculus test by running them through 1-10 multiplication tables.

I much prefer Pochs method with how he's handled Winks and given him tough situations, whether as a sub or a starter. If you're pushing for a first team spot then coddling time is over -you either live up to the pressure or you won't make it.

 

[Ben1]

Bit of patience needed with the right back situation and KWP. Aurier and KWP have played 90 minutes for the club between them, lets not be over hasty with kicking trippier out in 12 months already.

 

[Ben1]

This is just personal opinion but I never agree with giving youth a run out during games where we're that far ahead. It's a non-realistic playing situation. Your players often aren't playing as hard as they normally would and neither are the opposition. Or if they are they're leaving such massive gaps and spaces by pushing players forward that it again creates an unrealistic game state for the player. If that's their only experience then they're not really learning what an actual game is like. Then if they had to come on in a real situation passing lanes that they thought were normally open, the time and space hey thing they have on the ball etc. would be so massively different. It would be like prepping someone for an advanced calculus test by running them through 1-10 multiplication tables.

I much prefer Pochs method with how he's handled Winks and given him tough situations, whether as a sub or a starter. If you're pushing for a first team spot then coddling time is over -you either live up to the pressure or you won't make it.

He sometimes seems to purposely avoid chucking them in with easy situations. I quite like that, if the mix is right.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is just personal opinion but I never agree with giving youth a run out during games where we're that far ahead. It's a non-realistic playing situation. Your players often aren't playing as hard as they normally would and neither are the opposition. Or if they are they're leaving such massive gaps and spaces by pushing players forward that it again creates an unrealistic game state for the player. If that's their only experience then they're not really learning what an actual game is like. Then if they had to come on in a real situation passing lanes that they thought were normally open, the time and space they think they have on the ball etc. would be so massively different. It would be like prepping someone for an advanced calculus test by running them through 1-10 multiplication tables.

I much prefer Pochs method with how he's handled Winks and given him tough situations, whether as a sub or a starter. If you're pushing for a first team spot then coddling time is over -you either live up to the pressure or you won't make it.

I disagree. It's not about getting them experience of playing regular patterns of football per se, we know they can do that, it's about introducing and exposing them to that playing environment that they've never experienced before, but at the same time taking a tiny bit of the pressure off them because they know they are not going to cost us points etc. It's a rare opportunity for them to face a whole new pressure but at the same time face it slightly more relaxed than normally, which should enable them to not just function but hopefully perform a little. I don't think it's about purely football in these circumstances, it's as much about a mental conditioning in these early steps.

 

[WindyCOYS]

Much simpler than that, when we think they are of a high calibre, just just start integrating them into the first team, and see how they progress. No different to what we do with every player we sign, many of whom look erratic and inconsistent and often take at least a season to show their best form etc. And who often don't pan out to be of the required top level standard.

I'm only talking about 3/4 players over the course of the last 4/5 years. Not a wholesale merging of youth and first team.

And by integrating, i don't mean play every first team game, i mean s gradual stepping up of exposure, sub, minor cup, major cup, league etc

I am #TeamBeatsAndBC on this and wrote about it a month ago: http://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/news/spurs-must-integrate-academy-players-13465575

There has to be a middle ground -- I'd argue that last year we should have given youngsters all of the bench minutes given to Nkoudou/Sissoko, and I'd say that this year Edwards should nearly always be on the bench as he could genuinely change a game in our favour.

 

[coy-spurs1882]

with janssen leaving on loan hope we will see harrison or sterling involved in first team

 

[nicdic]

I am #TeamBeatsAndBC on this and wrote about it a month ago: http://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/news/spurs-must-integrate-academy-players-13465575

There has to be a middle ground -- I'd argue that last year we should have given youngsters all of the bench minutes given to Nkoudou/Sissoko, and I'd say that this year Edwards should nearly always be on the bench as he could genuinely change a game in our favour.

I'd agree with that. Sissoko and GK seem to be a complete waste. And I'd rather give their minutes to youth players.

But, I also understand the desire to bring them on in pressure moments instead. The way Poch used Onomah two seasons ago, and Winks last year is far more encouraging and beneficial I'd say than bringing them on at 5-0 with 10 minutes of keep ball.

What we don't know however is whether these guys are performing enough in training to warrant the position on the bench or the opportunity to get on. I'd LOVE to see them play more, but I want to trust Poch and his methods too, and I don't want it handed to them on a plate.

 

[McArchibald]

I am #TeamBeatsAndBC on this and wrote about it a month ago: http://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/news/spurs-must-integrate-academy-players-13465575

There has to be a middle ground -- I'd argue that last year we should have given youngsters all of the bench minutes given to Nkoudou/Sissoko, and I'd say that this year Edwards should nearly always be on the bench as he could genuinely change a game in our favour.

I largely agree with this, especially regarding Edwards. The only thing that can be said in Poch's defense is that when you are in a title scrap, the pressure on the coach and players is massive. Almost everyone would be tempted to go for tried and trusted players in this situation.
We just don't play enough unimportant games to truly blood these youngsters... Temporary Tim could because when he appeared on the scene, we were already out of contention for a top 4 finish.

 

[faze_coys]

I largely agree with this, especially regarding Edwards. The only thing that can be said in Poch's defense is that when you are in a title scrap, the pressure on the coach and players is massive. Almost everyone would be tempted to go for tried and trusted players in this situation.
We just don't play enough unimportant games to truly blood these youngsters... Temporary Tim could because when he appeared on the scene, we were already out of contention for a top 4 finish.

There are 10s of games where we are not scrapping though... Pochs contrived decision to throw onomah on in the 84th+ min in a unnatural position when we are 3-0 up was baffling (or even worse throw sissoko on)

 

[coys200]

Kids will defo get a chance this season ,we are already down to 17 fit outfield players.