The Y Word

[McFlash]

Edit. Apologies. I've no idea how the quotation system got messed up here @ralphs bald spot , so I thought I should tag you with my reply...

I'll be honest, I don't even link it with that nonsense anymore.
I'm 46 and for me, it's just a part of us and who we are as a club. As I said before, it feels like a part of our identity now.

I have no desire to offend anyone, nor do I wish to incite hate but I've been a Yid for all my life and I can't see that changing anytime soon.

Maybe that's an ignorant, or selfish standpoint but it's how I feel.
I've grown up calling myself a yiddo.

mate I have no axe to grind and I would have said the same a while back - look I don't think things will change straight away but I do think there is a conversation to be had - I don't think most if any Spurs fan link it with that nonsense but for me the problem is you giving other morons a chance to be greater morons by encouraging bigotry by carrying on something that maybe belongs in the past a bit
[/QUOTE]
I guess that my view is that bigots and arseholes, will be bigots and arseholes whatever we do.
So I don't get why we should stop our display of unity because it might flush out more hate.
We should look at punishing the hate, not those who are standing up to it.


Edit. I'm pretty sure it was you that fucked up this whole quoting thing in the first place! ?

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

I think this is definitely the beginning of the end of this chant. Its going to take a while for it to disappear though.

 

[gio747]

It's now very common to hear people say

It was made during a very specific discussion regarding blasphemy. I’m sure Stephen fry fucking hates hearing it now especially in context like this.

 

[McFlash]

It was made during a very specific discussion regarding blasphemy. I’m sure Stephen fry fucking hates hearing it now especially in context like this.

And that's why I said I'd love to hear someone like his opinion on this subject.
He's all for the evolution of language and the re-appropriation of words, so it would be interesting to hear his views on this, emotive subject.
You say you're sure he'd hate it, myself, I'm not so sure he would.

 

[HodisGawd]

And surely, we've taken ownership of the word and changed the narrative?

The word has existed for centuries. We have NOT taken ownership of the word and it is arrogant and ignorant to think so (btw, I'm not saying you are either of those things ?).

 

[McFlash]

The word has existed for centuries. We have NOT taken ownership of the word and it is arrogant and ignorant to think so (btw, I'm not saying you are either of those things).

Mate, that's not what I meant and if you think it is, well that's down to your interpretation.
We re-appropriated the word and used it against those who tried to use it against us.
That's how we've taken ownership of the phrase, in this context.

Of course the 'word' has existed for centuries, if not longer but that really doesn't have any bearing on the current context of its use, does it?
We're not debating the historical use of the word Yid, we're debating how it relates to us as Spurs fans and our use of it.
Again. Context.

 

[HodisGawd]

If you don't like it don't watch it and If you don't like the yid chants don't join in. It can't be hard to live with something that is now ingrained in the club history and is sung for decades.

The problem is if you don't like the chant, you still have to stand there and listen to it.

As said before, I'm not Jewish and I don't have skin in the game (so to speak) except that I don't want to make other people uncomfortable if I can help it. So I don't - and I don't understand why anyone else would want to.

Does the freedom to sing the chant override someone else's freedom not be, in their view, abused? I don't know, I'm not a moral philosopher. But why even raise that question by chanting it? Why not just refrain through the respect of others? It's not like it makes any difference to you or anyone.

 

[HodisGawd]

Mate, that's not what I meant and if you think it is, well that's down to your interpretation.
We re-appropriated the word and used it against those who tried to use it against us.
That's how we've taken ownership of the phrase, in this context.

Of course the 'word' has existed for centuries, if not longer but that really doesn't have any bearing on the current context of its use, does it?
We're not debating the historical use of the word Yid, we're debating how it relates to us as Spurs fans and our use of it.
Again. Context.

The context is people are offended by it both in the ground and outside. Members of our own support and members of the wider public. When there's no doubt about that I don't see where else there is to go with the argument. That's the context.

 

[McFlash]

The context is people are offended by it both in the ground and outside. Members of our own support and members of the wider public. When there's no doubt about that I don't see where else there is to go with the argument. That's the context.

But we've got so many of our own supporters, many of which are Jewish, saying they have no problem with it.
In fact, we've got a fair few saying that they love it and the unity it brings.

Is this another case that the vocal minority are just swaying the view because they're loudest.
Even you yourself say that you've no dog in the fight, yet you seem to be most vocal in here in you quest against its use.

Are you just feeling the need to stick up for people that you think may be offended?
We've had many members, properly practising Jews stating that they love the fact we stand with them but you seem to be wanting to stand with the Baddiels of the world. The minority that get offended by everything but are loudest to shout about it.

Basically, I've stated why I think it's become part of our club and our history, you just keep saying "but it might offend people".

 

[JW72]

Is this another case that the vocal minority are just swaying the view because they're loudest.

Totally understand your argument, however… throughout history haven’t minorities had to shout loudest to bring about change?Especially in the context of persecution. The Suffrage movement, civil rights activists, Stonewall, anti apartheid etc. Not everyone on the move on side of the debate is a ‘Baddiel of this world’ or is someone who takes offence at the Y word. It doesn’t offend me but I do feel uncomfortable using it - always have even in the full Spurs reclaiming context. It seems that the club has taken a very sensible and intelligent approach to the debate rather than shutting anyone down or refusing to engage.

 

[JW72]

There's an opinion piece on this in the Guardian that's worth a read…

As a Jewish Spurs fan, I saw Y-word chants as a form of solidarity. But they have to go | Mark Solomons

I never joined those chants, but I understood the motives of our fans who did, says journalist and PR specialist Mark Solomons

www.theguardian.com

The writer states: “It’s because I sit in the section reserved for grumpy old men who spend the whole game kvetching about players and their inadequacies.”
I know that exact section. It’s called the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium…

 

[mil1lion]

The problem is if you don't like the chant, you still have to stand there and listen to it.

As said before, I'm not Jewish and I don't have skin in the game (so to speak) except that I don't want to make other people uncomfortable if I can help it. So I don't - and I don't understand why anyone else would want to.

Does the freedom to sing the chant override someone else's freedom not be, in their view, abused? I don't know, I'm not a moral philosopher. But why even raise that question by chanting it? Why not just refrain through the respect of others? It's not like it makes any difference to you or anyone.

It does make a difference though because a lot people enjoy singing these songs. A lot of people take pride in the song. OK if we have more chants that everyone can join in with then great. I just find it hard to accept that "people have to listen to it" because it's only a word and they know full well the context in which it used. Are we going to not swear too in case people don't like it? It's going to be difficult to avoid offending people if they can't live with something not aimed at them. I'm not going to chant the word on my own but if others are and it creates a great atmosphere then I'm joining in. I won't join in the negative shouting and booing the players off though. Spurs games should be a place to feel welcome by all means but the context in which we use the word yid is of unity and support.

The whole language thing is complex anyway. I see comments about how it's not our word to claim. Well sorry but it's also not a word for anti semitic pricks to claim either. It works both ways. I don't know how the word yid came about but a word can only become offensive with the context that its used with. If people were nicer to Jews and said the word yid in a friendly way many years ago maybe the word is seen more positive than negative. We started to use the word in support so now when you come to Spurs games you know it's used in a positive way. It would be difficult to use the word outside of the club though. Surely if they remove any positive use of the word yid then it only leaves the door open for the negative use of the word. I bet if we stopped using the word then certain fans will start to use it even more often because they will feel they've won. If they know the word is purely offensive they'll use it more.

 

[midoNdefoe]

Maybe the idea is if we stop chanting it, it will become easier to charge those who use it against us??

All I know is as a south London based non-Jewish person, having grown up around chelsea fans, I’ve always been referred to as ‘yid-boy’ by these surly, thick-necked fucks. That hasn’t ever changed. And so I’ve always been on board with the reclamation aspect of it to be able to turn around and ‘own it’ (so to speak).
I’m not surprised people are offended by its use, it has always been used in a manner intended to offend - at us. All of us. Whether Jewish or not we’ve all been called a ‘fucking yid’ or something similar. So my confusion comes from being asked to stop using it in the positive unifying sense that we all use it, rather than those who use it to cause offence being reprimanded.
It has also muddied the waters terribly having bellend-Baddiel suggest that we are the ones perpetuating it, when that has never been the case, it’s always been a reactionary, unifying, defence-mechanism.
All in my honest opinion.

 

[Duke of Northumberland]

Maybe the idea is if we stop chanting it, it will become easier to charge those who use it against us??

All I know is as a south London based non-Jewish person, having grown up around chelsea fans, I’ve always been referred to as ‘yid-boy’ by these surly, thick-necked fucks. That hasn’t ever changed. And so I’ve always been on board with the reclamation aspect of it to be able to turn around and ‘own it’ (so to speak).
I’m not surprised people are offended by its use, it has always been used in a manner intended to offend - at us. All of us. Whether Jewish or not we’ve all been called a ‘fucking yid’ or something similar. So my confusion comes from being asked to stop using it in the positive unifying sense that we all use it, rather than those who use it to cause offence being reprimanded.
It has also muddied the waters terribly having bellend-Baddiel suggest that we are the ones perpetuating it, when that has never been the case, it’s always been a reactionary, unifying, defence-mechanism.
All in my honest opinion.

It's a concern, but lets not forget it has already gone to a court of law and was thrown out. The club might ban people if it made its own rules on it however.

 

[midoNdefoe]

It's a concern, but lets not forget it has already gone to a court of law and was thrown out. The club might ban people if it made its own rules on it however.

Is this in reference to something specific? I’m not sure I follow

 

[Duke of Northumberland]

Is this in reference to something specific? I’m not sure I follow

I misread your first point- I thought you were saying the club might be pushing on this to isolate OUR fans who sing it.

Maybe you're right, that would be some comfort against the thought of being ritually abused and we just have to sit there with our mouths shut. I'm sure rival fans will double down on it if they keep hearing how the club is embarrassed about it and we can't use it as a positive...

 

[midoNdefoe]

I misread your first point- I thought you were saying the club might be pushing on this to isolate OUR fans who sing it.

Maybe you're right, that would be some comfort against the thought of being ritually abused and we just have to sit there with our mouths shut. I'm sure rival fans will double down on it if they keep hearing how the club is embarrassed about it and we can't use it as a positive...

I agree. I think if we had seen the abuse stop from other fans, the chant may become redundant and the conversation become a lot more relevant- about how some fans feel about the continued use - but until that occurs I think it remains a unifying chant of defiance and will live on.

 

[McFlash]

Totally understand your argument, however… throughout history haven’t minorities had to shout loudest to bring about change?Especially in the context of persecution. The Suffrage movement, civil rights activists, Stonewall, anti apartheid etc. Not everyone on the move on side of the debate is a ‘Baddiel of this world’ or is someone who takes offence at the Y word. It doesn’t offend me but I do feel uncomfortable using it - always have even in the full Spurs reclaiming context. It seems that the club has taken a very sensible and intelligent approach to the debate rather than shutting anyone down or refusing to engage.

I get the point your making and to a degree you're correct.
I'm just not sure that any of your examples are comparable to this situation.

 

[dontcallme]

I agree. I think if we had seen the abuse stop from other fans, the chant may become redundant and the conversation become a lot more relevant- about how some fans feel about the continued use - but until that occurs I think it remains a unifying chant of defiance and will live on.

Another question I have is if we have a larger Jewish following or connection than the likes of Arsenal. Genuinely wondering.

There is a large Jewish population in north London and I have to believe there is a fair amount of support for Arsenal. We are on the receiving end of anti-semitic songs and abuse and they're not.

So it can be argued that in modern time our usage of the term is not successful in fighting against anti-semitism.

 

[Sloop]

Another question I have is if we have a larger Jewish following or connection than the likes of Arsenal. Genuinely wondering.

There is a large Jewish population in north London and I have to believe there is a fair amount of support for Arsenal. We are on the receiving end of anti-semitic songs and abuse and they're not.

So it can be argued that in modern time our usage of the term is not successful in fighting against anti-semitism.

An article in the Jewish Chronicle gave an estimate of a maximum of 5% of the crowd at Spurs being Jewish and that Arsenal have at least as many Jewish fans. The piece is an extract from "A People's History Of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club: How Spurs Fans Shaped the Identity of One of the World's Most Famous Clubs"

https://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/features/how-tottenham-became-the-jewish-football-team-1.53784