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Top four? Recent past says only United, City, Chelsea, Spurs or WBA will do it By Brian Sears

whitestreak

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Dec 8, 2006
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Top four? Recent past says only United, City, Chelsea, Spurs or WBA will do it

By Brian Sears
7 December 2012
In the past five seasons in the Premier League, no club with fewer than 26 points at this stage of the season – 15 games – has risen to a top-four finish.
On that statistical reckoning, only the two Manchester clubs, plus Chelsea, Tottenham and West Bromwich Albion are in line for the top four this time round. They are the only ones with 26 points or more after 15 games.
While a few others outside the current top five might argue “We can still do it”, with Everton and Arsenal having the strongest historical claims, the rest can make no realistic case at all.
And Liverpool, whose manager Brendan Rodgers was adamant last week when saying a top four finish is still possible, would need a truly unprecedented feat to get there.
Three points at home against an out-of-sorts Southampton last weekend was certainly a step in the right direction but no team in the 20-year history of the League has managed a top-four finish having gained fewer than 21 points from their first 15 games. Liverpool at the moment have 19 points.
As our table below shows, Manchester United have twice risen from the ashes of 21 points after 15 games to climb the table. Twenty years ago they were 10th after 15 games but in May 1993 they were crowned as the first Premier League champions, and by 10 clear points from Aston Villa.
In those days you had a season of 42 games in which to recover and not the 38 of these days. Then again in 2001-02 at this stage of the season United were ninth with 21 points from 15 games and they rose to 3rd by season’s close.
Leeds were another Premier League club that could start a season slowly and finish strongly. In 2000-01 they languished 11th after 15 games with 22 points and finished 4th; two seasons earlier they had achieved the same placed finish from 23 points after 15 games.
And Rodgers can gain some inspiration from Liverpool’s own history. Nine seasons ago, 6 wins, 4 draws and 5 defeats had gained Liverpool 22 points and they did go on to finish 4th. And six seasons ago they went one better to finish 3rd from 22 points after 15 games.
But 19 points after 15 games? A top-four finish this time would be a historic achievement.
From Sporting Intelligence
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jimbo

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Dec 22, 2003
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This means fuck all, Arsenal can still finish top four, West Brom won't. So, yeah.
 

whitestreak

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Dec 8, 2006
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WOW PAST 5 SEASONS!!!

SIGNIFICANT SAMPLE SIZE!!!
Well Omar in relation to a size of 20 years (since the inception of the premier league) or 16 since it was reduced to 20 teams,
In strict mathematical terms a 30% sample is regarded as being highly significant.and in statistical sense extremely reliable.so what you shouting about
Gallup, and Mori polls sample a few thousand people in relation to millions...as do most market research firms ....but shit Ive only have a couple of degrees in this stuff...
I am always happy to learn something new!
 

whitestreak

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Dec 8, 2006
838
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Well Omar in relation to a size of 20 years (since the inception of the premier league) or 16 since it was reduced to 20 teams,
In strict mathematical terms a 30% sample is regarded as being highly significant.and in statistical sense extremely reliable.so what you shouting about
Gallup, and Mori polls sample a few thousand people in relation to millions...as do most market research firms ....but shit Ive only have a couple of degrees in this stuff...
I am always happy to learn something new!
PS I think West Brom will fall away as did Newcastle last year.....
 

OmarsComing

Mentally Disturbed Individual!
Jan 2, 2011
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The no-one has beaten the drop sitting at the bottom of the league at xmas day was a good one. This however sucks. 5 fucking seasons ffs.
 

jimbo

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Dec 22, 2003
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Well Omar in relation to a size of 20 years (since the inception of the premier league) or 16 since it was reduced to 20 teams,
In strict mathematical terms a 30% sample is regarded as being highly significant.and in statistical sense extremely reliable.so what you shouting about
Gallup, and Mori polls sample a few thousand people in relation to millions...as do most market research firms ....but shit Ive only have a couple of degrees in this stuff...
I am always happy to learn something new!

That's the difference between marketing and research. 5 years is nothing in scientific or historical terms, but obviously in marketing you have much shorter trends. The problem is, this is really a history question so a 5 season sample isn't large enough to draw a meaningful conclusion.
 

RichieS

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Dec 23, 2004
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PS I think West Brom will fall away as did Newcastle last year.....
Newcastle didn't fall away - they could still have come 4th if results had gone their way on the last day of the season I think!

I agree that West Brom don't have a realistic chance though.
 

Ironskullll

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Nov 15, 2010
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Well Omar in relation to a size of 20 years (since the inception of the premier league) or 16 since it was reduced to 20 teams,
In strict mathematical terms a 30% sample is regarded as being highly significant.and in statistical sense extremely reliable.so what you shouting about
Gallup, and Mori polls sample a few thousand people in relation to millions...as do most market research firms ....but shit Ive only have a couple of degrees in this stuff...
I am always happy to learn something new!
But surely you wouldn't pick the last five seasons any more than you would pick a few thousand all from one town or the last 30 people to walk past a bus stop? Surely the sample has to be picked at random?
 

Flightrisker

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Jan 15, 2006
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It's just one of those reverse engineered stats used to make a non-point. XKCD did a good post on this type of statistics during the US election.

electoral_precedent.png
 

HotspurFC1950

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Feb 6, 2011
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PS I think West Brom will fall away as did Newcastle last year.....


Usually do fall away because squad strength is not so good. It was unfortunate we played West Brom, Norwich, Wigan early on rather than towards the half way point in the season.
 

whitestreak

SC Supporter
Dec 8, 2006
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Usually do fall away because squad strength is not so good. It was unfortunate we played West Brom, Norwich, Wigan early on rather than towards the half way point in the season.
True but we get to play em again next half season...hopefully we'll have a fully fit first team by then

In terms of my stat points 5 seasons in relation to the existence of the premier league as a 20 club league (16 years) or 30% of its existence is highly significant.
 

OmarsComing

Mentally Disturbed Individual!
Jan 2, 2011
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Well Omar in relation to a size of 20 years (since the inception of the premier league) or 16 since it was reduced to 20 teams,
In strict mathematical terms a 30% sample is regarded as being highly significant.and in statistical sense extremely reliable.so what you shouting about
Gallup, and Mori polls sample a few thousand people in relation to millions...as do most market research firms ....but shit Ive only have a couple of degrees in this stuff...
I am always happy to learn something new!

JTVII.gif
 

whitestreak

SC Supporter
Dec 8, 2006
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In case you missed my reply on the other thread (AVB) i'll repost it here!
Omar weird how the bookies seem to agree with me!
If youve got the stomach put your money where your mouth is ....
I'll bet over 64 points you bet under...we dont have to bet one another ......we can both bet individually...and both make money if we are right....
In fact Ive just done it at 10/11 per point.....

sure, its a spread bet I get paid for every point over 65 points! If he felt that we would not get 65 points he gets paid for every point under...
It is I guess putting your money where your mouth is, and to depersonalise it you dont have to gamble against one another..
You can bet at the bookies... He has been pretty disparaging ........so let him have the courage of his convictions...I have!
I believe (and have since AVB has arrived)we will finish in the top 4. I believe we will get around 70 points.
I have now bet that and will win handsomely if we do!
Let him do the opposite thing (if he has the inclination and or courage of his convictions)
BTW the bookies initially price this bet based on the Stats and the sample he tells me is too small
which in my view is B*ll*cks so I have called him on it!
 

jimbo

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Dec 22, 2003
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In case you missed my reply on the other thread (AVB) i'll repost it here!
Omar weird how the bookies seem to agree with me!
If youve got the stomach put your money where your mouth is ....
I'll bet over 64 points you bet under...we dont have to bet one another ......we can both bet individually...and both make money if we are right....
In fact Ive just done it at 10/11 per point.....

sure, its a spread bet I get paid for every point over 65 points! If he felt that we would not get 65 points he gets paid for every point under...
It is I guess putting your money where your mouth is, and to depersonalise it you dont have to gamble against one another..
You can bet at the bookies... He has been pretty disparaging ........so let him have the courage of his convictions...I have!
I believe (and have since AVB has arrived)we will finish in the top 4. I believe we will get around 70 points.
I have now bet that and will win handsomely if we do!
Let him do the opposite thing (if he has the inclination and or courage of his convictions)
BTW the bookies initially price this bet based on the Stats and the sample he tells me is too small
which in my view is B*ll*cks so I have called him on it!

I'll bet you £10 to SC that Arsenal finish above West Brom?
 

jimbo

Cabbages
Dec 22, 2003
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I agree with you!
But how about we both Give £10 or more to SC if we finish top 4 or above Arsenal!

I'll go £10 to SC if we finish top four, as much as I'd like to finish above Arsenal, if they're 6th and we're 5th it wouldn't feel like a victory in the way us finishing 4th and them 5th would, if you know what I mean.
 
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