Was the appointment of Ryan Mason racist?

[Sputic]

It specifically describes a skin colour and it is intended as a slur. These are indisputable facts.

I disagree that Dickens used it in exactly the same way as it is used now. Not least because England is a very different place now. It is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world but, in Dickens’ time, it was overwhelmingly white. Therefore, the notion that “gammon” could have been construed as having racial overtones would have been absurd back then. Not so now. The fact that we are even having this discussion confirms as much.

There are all manner of words and expressions that were acceptable in the past - or even that had a subtly different meaning in the past - that are no longer considered acceptable. Among them are myriad words and phrases related to skin colour. Why should “gammon” not be included just because it refers to white people?

It doesn't describe skin colour (maybe you should go to see your doctor), it describes a mindset and attitude. You could call a non-white person a gammon and everyone would know exactly it would mean.

Dickens used it to describe a way of thinking and that is exactly how it's used now.

If people don't like being called a gammon, then they can stop being a gammon. It's that easy.

 

[Niko]

If you listen to what he actually said he didn't say it was a "racist appointment". The point - a very valid one - he raises is that on a purely objective level, Powell is more qualified than Mason. So why didn't he get the job?

There are of course a multitude of factors that contributed to Mason getting it - his redemption story, a longer standing relationship with the club, potentially his good work with the reserves. Powell might not have wanted it - we don't really know.

But there is a pattern, and a long standing pattern, that black managers are regularly passed over for jobs. Whether this is a deliberate "racist" act or one that comes from unconscious bias is never clear.

However, there is significant research and evidence that on blind CV tests, the more white and middle class a name sounds the more likely their CV is to get through, even when the qualifications are the same. How do you explain that? (some academic evidence here if you fancy: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1468-4446.12676)

It's also clear that black players are never praised in the media for their intelligence (an attribute that easily translates into management), and always for pace, power and brawn - even if that's not a key part of their game (eg Pogba).

It doesn't take a genius to join the dots and see that there is a structural problem with racism in society and that extends to football. The shameful lack of black managers compared to black players in the game is more evidence that there may be an issue.

So instead of simply shutting down and calling Windy a c*** for raising an interesting argument, it's worth looking at the facts and wider trends. Football reflects society - society has a racism problem, so it figures that football will as well.

 

[DarwinSpur]

Has it occurred to you that Chris Powell may not have wanted the tag of “interim manager” on his CV? I fucking hate stuff like this, it’s complete bullshit when people literally look for things to call racism on SMH

Erm... you do realise I was reporting what Chris Miller said and specifically stated that I disagreed with his assessment?

 

[dontcallme]

If you listen to what he actually said he didn't say it was a "racist appointment". The point - a very valid one - he raises is that on a purely objective level, Powell is more qualified than Mason. So why didn't he get the job?

There are of course a multitude of factors that contributed to Mason getting it - his redemption story, a longer standing relationship with the club, potentially his good work with the reserves. Powell might not have wanted it - we don't really know.

But there is a pattern, and a long standing pattern, that black managers are regularly passed over for jobs. Whether this is a deliberate "racist" act or one that comes from unconscious bias is never clear.

However, there is significant research and evidence that on blind CV tests, the more white and middle class a name sounds the more likely their CV is to get through, even when the qualifications are the same. How do you explain that? (some academic evidence here if you fancy: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1468-4446.12676)

It's also clear that black players are never praised in the media for their intelligence (an attribute that easily translates into management), and always for pace, power and brawn - even if that's not a key part of their game (eg Pogba).

It doesn't take a genius to join the dots and see that there is a structural problem with racism in society and that extends to football. The shameful lack of black managers compared to black players in the game is more evidence that there may be an issue.

So instead of simply shutting down and calling Windy a c*** for raising an interesting argument, it's worth looking at the facts and wider trends. Football reflects society - society has a racism problem, so it figures that football will as well.

You raise interesting points and many like myself see the bigger picture.

But the problem is calling out individual appointments as potentially racist. If we had any evidence that Powell wanted the job and was passed over we could discuss it. But without basic information like that it is a shot in the dark.

 

[HedgieSpur]

We really don't need this conversation

Of all the responses on this thread, as a black man, I found yours to be the most illuminating. Whats your concern with having the conversation?

 

[HedgieSpur]

If you listen to what he actually said he didn't say it was a "racist appointment". The point - a very valid one - he raises is that on a purely objective level, Powell is more qualified than Mason. So why didn't he get the job?

There are of course a multitude of factors that contributed to Mason getting it - his redemption story, a longer standing relationship with the club, potentially his good work with the reserves. Powell might not have wanted it - we don't really know.

But there is a pattern, and a long standing pattern, that black managers are regularly passed over for jobs. Whether this is a deliberate "racist" act or one that comes from unconscious bias is never clear.

However, there is significant research and evidence that on blind CV tests, the more white and middle class a name sounds the more likely their CV is to get through, even when the qualifications are the same. How do you explain that? (some academic evidence here if you fancy: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1468-4446.12676)

It's also clear that black players are never praised in the media for their intelligence (an attribute that easily translates into management), and always for pace, power and brawn - even if that's not a key part of their game (eg Pogba).

It doesn't take a genius to join the dots and see that there is a structural problem with racism in society and that extends to football. The shameful lack of black managers compared to black players in the game is more evidence that there may be an issue.

So instead of simply shutting down and calling Windy a c*** for raising an interesting argument, it's worth looking at the facts and wider trends. Football reflects society - society has a racism problem, so it figures that football will as well.

Youve saved me having to post the very same thing. Great post!

 

[Nebby]

If you listen to what he actually said he didn't say it was a "racist appointment". The point - a very valid one - he raises is that on a purely objective level, Powell is more qualified than Mason. So why didn't he get the job?

There are of course a multitude of factors that contributed to Mason getting it - his redemption story, a longer standing relationship with the club, potentially his good work with the reserves. Powell might not have wanted it - we don't really know.

But there is a pattern, and a long standing pattern, that black managers are regularly passed over for jobs. Whether this is a deliberate "racist" act or one that comes from unconscious bias is never clear.

However, there is significant research and evidence that on blind CV tests, the more white and middle class a name sounds the more likely their CV is to get through, even when the qualifications are the same. How do you explain that? (some academic evidence here if you fancy: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1468-4446.12676)

It's also clear that black players are never praised in the media for their intelligence (an attribute that easily translates into management), and always for pace, power and brawn - even if that's not a key part of their game (eg Pogba).

It doesn't take a genius to join the dots and see that there is a structural problem with racism in society and that extends to football. The shameful lack of black managers compared to black players in the game is more evidence that there may be an issue.

So instead of simply shutting down and calling Windy a c*** for raising an interesting argument, it's worth looking at the facts and wider trends. Football reflects society - society has a racism problem, so it figures that football will as well.

Some facts would be great. Like, was Powell offered the post and turned it down? Does he even possess the necessary skillset or accreditation to do the job? It's highly irresponsible for somebody to start chucking around unfounded claims of racism.

 

[HedgieSpur]

Racism this and racism that... I'm so tired of this.

Youre tired of racism? Trying living with it pretty much everyday of your life mate.....

 

[Shadydan]

Of all the responses on this thread, as a black man, I found yours to be the most illuminating. Whats your concern with having the conversation?

I didn't want to shut this down but at the time I felt that people weren't ready to have this conversation but judging by the responses clearly I was wrong.

 

[HedgieSpur]

Some facts would be great. Like, was Powell offered the post and turned it down? Does he even possess the necessary skillset or accreditation to do the job? It's highly irresponsible for somebody to start chucking around unfounded claims of racism.

A short Google search would give you the answers as to whether Powell is qualified or not (I doubt there is anybody seriously saying he isnt qulaified to be an interim manager). On the other point, as the process is so opaque, its virtually impossible to "know" whether race played a part or not, but the stats dont stack up very well and hence people are surely entitled to ask the question right?

 

[HedgieSpur]

I didn't want to shut this down but at the time I felt that people weren't ready to have this conversation but judging by the responses clearly I was wrong.

Ta bueno...I was genuinely interested mate

 

[Albertbarich]

It won't last, he loves the sound of his own voice too much.

Also has a patreon to sell

 

[Albertbarich]

If you listen to what he actually said he didn't say it was a "racist appointment". The point - a very valid one - he raises is that on a purely objective level, Powell is more qualified than Mason. So why didn't he get the job?

There are of course a multitude of factors that contributed to Mason getting it - his redemption story, a longer standing relationship with the club, potentially his good work with the reserves. Powell might not have wanted it - we don't really know.

But there is a pattern, and a long standing pattern, that black managers are regularly passed over for jobs. Whether this is a deliberate "racist" act or one that comes from unconscious bias is never clear.

However, there is significant research and evidence that on blind CV tests, the more white and middle class a name sounds the more likely their CV is to get through, even when the qualifications are the same. How do you explain that? (some academic evidence here if you fancy: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1468-4446.12676)

It's also clear that black players are never praised in the media for their intelligence (an attribute that easily translates into management), and always for pace, power and brawn - even if that's not a key part of their game (eg Pogba).

It doesn't take a genius to join the dots and see that there is a structural problem with racism in society and that extends to football. The shameful lack of black managers compared to black players in the game is more evidence that there may be an issue.

So instead of simply shutting down and calling Windy a c*** for raising an interesting argument, it's worth looking at the facts and wider trends. Football reflects society - society has a racism problem, so it figures that football will as well.

Racism is everywhere, bigotry is everywhere.

Just not sure it's the great conspiracy many like to paint. People are selfish, people have their own bias and that's people of all colours.

The issue is in this country is its majority white so the white bias is far more prevalent.

Wherever there will be human beings there will be someone judging others and being a bit of a tit. It's called insecurity.

Not sure really sure what my point is other than I don't for one second think levy made a conscious decision due to skin colour and if we were all a bit less judgemental and a bit kinder the world would be a nicer place.

 

[Amo]

Racism is everywhere, bigotry is everywhere.

Just not sure it's the great conspiracy many like to paint. People are selfish, people have their own bias and that's people of all colours.

The issue is in this country is its majority white so the white bias is far more prevalent.

Wherever there will be human beings there will be someone judging others and being a bit of a tit. It's called insecurity.

Not sure really sure what my point is other than I don't for one second think levy made a conscious decision due to skin colour and if we were all a bit less judgemental and a bit kinder the world would be a nicer place.

No one has claimed it was a consciously racist decision.

What you just posted is the exact thing people are discussing and questioning. You're saying it isn't racist and then offering an "alternative" explanation that is the exact thing you're saying it isn't.

 

[Albertbarich]

No one has claimed it was a consciously racist decision.

What you just posted is the exact thing people are discussing and questioning. You're saying it isn't racist and then offering an alternative explanation that is the exact thing you're saying it isn't.

Where did I say it wasn't racist? You literally just made that up to fit your closing paragraph.

I dont know what it was because I'm not Daniel levys brain and neither do you. Could he have unconsciously chosen Mason as he looks more like the invogue managers? Sure. Could he have chosen him because he has a long relationship with him and doesn't know Powell that well? Absolutely. Nobody knows.

I just offered up some thoughts on racism in general. Not everything is a great conspiracy. Spend enough time around different races and nationalities and you come to realise that were all the same. I've met racists in all colours and nationalities, I've heard immigration rants from all colours and nationalities. It's all the same , people being insecure about their lot in life and using bad individual experiences to judge millions.

If you want a conversation about unconscious bias then have fun, just not sure a spurs forum is the place to solve the human races mental weakness'

 

[Amo]

Where did I say it wasn't racist? You literally just made that up to fit your closing paragraph.

I dont know what it was because I'm not Daniel levys brain and neither do you. Could he have unconsciously chosen Mason as he looks more like the invogue managers? Sure. Could he have chosen him because he has a long relationship with him and doesn't know Powell that well? Absolutely. Nobody knows.

I just offered up some thoughts on racism in general. Not everything is a great conspiracy. Spend enough time around different races and nationalities and you come to realise that were all the same. I've met racists in all colours and nationalities, I've heard immigration rants from all colours and nationalities. It's all the same , people being insecure about their lot in life and using bad individual experiences to judge millions.

If you want a conversation about unconscious bias then have fun, just not sure a spurs forum is the place to solve the human races mental weakness'

You misunderstood me. Or perhaps I could have been clearer.

I meant the example you gave is the thing that people are calling racist.

That is the structural racism people are deeming the issue in these cases.

People are selfish, people have their own bias and that's people of all colours.

The issue is in this country is its majority white so the white bias is far more prevalent.

That is the definition of what people are calling racist hiring practices.

We're decades past the point of people openly rejecting black candidates because of their colour. So there is no "conspiracy" in that regard because no one is credibly suggesting this to be the case

 

[Albertbarich]

You misunderstood me. Or perhaps I could have been clearer.

I meant the example you gave is the thing that people are calling racist.

That is the structural racism people are deeming the issue in these cases.



That is the definition of what people are calling racist hiring practices.

We're decades past the point of people openly rejecting black candidates because of their colour. So there is no "conspiracy" in that regard because no one is credibly suggesting this to be the case

My take on it is then people have bias whether it be conscious or unconscious.

These come in all shapes and sizes. I think people associate racism with this aggressive wordplay that leads into discrimination and worse but of course if the majority of the country is white and a percentage of those white interviewers have a bias against people from minority communities then its a problem. But I'm not sure how you solve that.

Every interviewer has a bias. I've worked alongside people from Asian communities before and they have full on built their team with people from their own community. Does that make them racist? I don't think so, I think they trust what and who they know. It's certainly bigoted but they have been lovely people just going with their own bias.

My point really is this conversation is so so deep and I think it goes far beyond racism =bad. It is the human psyche , because we're in the UK white people obviously don't feel it anywhere near as much so it's important to talk about but I don't think their is a place or people's in the world that have it sussed.

 

[Nebby]

A short Google search would give you the answers as to whether Powell is qualified or not (I doubt there is anybody seriously saying he isnt qulaified to be an interim manager). On the other point, as the process is so opaque, its virtually impossible to "know" whether race played a part or not, but the stats dont stack up very well and hence people are surely entitled to ask the question right?

Racism, rightly, can no longer be brushed under the carpet, so I have no problem with the matter being discussed and the very toughest sanctions being taken. But such a serious accusation shouldn't just be bandied about. There needs to be evidence that something wrong has happened, not just some guy's opinion.

 

[Gassin's finest]

How is this thread still going?

 

[freeeki]

How is this thread still going?

Fuck knows. Nuke it from orbit.