The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - The Day After

cwhite02 · Feb 1, 2011

Don't know about anyone else but I'm glad the window has shut, I did wish we had signed a top forward but am glad I can get on with working again and not spending every 5 minutes on here looking for a small glimpse of hope that one of the ITK was becoming true!

We can't do anything now apart from supporting the players we have and believing we can start clicking again.

Up the Spurs!!

vonn · Feb 1, 2011

arnoldlayne said:
This was posted by Dragon1 (ITK on COYS) just now. Could explain conflicting info from various itk's (who I still think I would rather have than be driven out by the unwarranted abuse):

there was one transfer last week where,harry,bond and the chief scout changed there minds continually until in end we were gazumped it was shambolic.

This infomation ties up with what adiepf said about H continually changing his opinion about players. I really hope that the transfer in question was not Suarez. :bang:

trasores · Feb 1, 2011

vonn said:
The thing is we knew players like Forlan were on top money and would want top money to come and play for us, so why even bother targetting them if we can't pay that sort of wage. It just doesn't make sense.

THIS.

identify the players that you want and can afford... For example Vucinic is of around £65k per week so an offer of £80k may suit.

but when we are looking at players who are already on £80k - £100k per week (and especially those who play in spain who benefit from the club paying the players tax) we are going to have to offer them a large wedge to get them to uproot their family etc.

Suarez - overpriced, good in holland but not sure if he'd have suited our system.
Carroll - overpriced, great this year and would have been great for us (people forget that he did score in the PL a few seasons back too)
Torres - Overpriced and waaaay out of our league regarding pay
Rossi - overprice, great in spain and against us in pre season but would he have fitted into our system?
Fabiano - overpriced, on the decline - bullet dodged
Forlan - overpriced, 32 now and has faded since world cup.
Adam - unsure of price, good player who would have been a short term solution for a long term price.
Aguero - Publicity stunt, to expensive, wages to high, he wouldnt come to us.
Neville - too old but would have given us cover and experience. derisory offer means levy didnt really want him.

Its over now and we need to move on

Harry has to grow a pair and play VDV on the left against Blackburn and play 2 upfront or play Pav and VDV up front.:shrug:

steveb · Feb 1, 2011

Whilst we can all be dissapointed with how the last couple of days have unfolded, i think we have to take a step back and realize that will still have a great squad of which many would be proud off.

Yes my only critisism would be our apparent scattergun approach to try to sign a world class striker and then our bizarre last minute bid for Charlie Adam, but i have to be honest and feel that most of us are upset for two reasons.

1. We have sat back and watched Chelsea and Liverpool spend a fortune and we are obviously a little jealous of this fact, its like being at school and seing you friends have the latest mountain bike and wondering why your own parents won't splash that kind of cash on you.

2. The failings of our strikers this season is obviously not been great hence our craving for a top class guy to come in and save the day, but these do not grow on trees.

Chelsea and Liverpool have spend a fortune and with that comes a risk, will Carroll and Suarez hit it off, and will the the man from Ajax actually cut it in this league.

What we have to look at is this. We have great players we should be proud off, Bale, Modric, VDV would get in most teams. Huddlestone will be back soon, Woodgate could be back, and i am sure that once Defoe gets a run of games and he will be scoring for fun again,we have to remember he has been out with injury and suspension a lot this season. In Walker and Caulker we have two really top drawer youngsters who will go on a play for England.On our day we are a match for anyone, and a few months ago we took Inter to the cleaners, beat Arsenal away and all was rosy, so what has changed? nothing but our own frustration to want the best for our team and buy a player that maybe was not in our reach just yet. Keep the faith and we will see what happens in the Summer

arnoldlayne · Feb 1, 2011

sidford said:
is it safe to come in here??? i thought a mass suicide like wako (sp) was going to happen

the one thing that has me more worried than anything is the lack of a clear plan of who we want/wanted. i do believe that we put in bids for rossi, fabiano, forlan, llorente and also enquired about suarez and carroll. looking at that list of players they are very different in sytle and what they would bring to a team. If we just went after a similar type of player then fine but to go after strikers that are very different is worrying and shows a lack of a strategic plan.

the summer window was worse (vdv apart) for us because that is the time to be signing your marque striker not in january when 4 month wonders go for 35m so im not too gutted now i was more gutted in the summer. a pool friend of mine said that this is harrys chance to prove he can really take spurs to the next level (reaching CL once is not really taking us to the next level, getting us there consistently is) and that he didnt think he has the strategic mind to do that, have to say after this window and the bids we made im tending to agree. what harry did for us since hes come here deserves another 2/3 seasons at least but after the summer with no striker and now this window i do have questions about his ability to manage consistently at the top 4 level

I'm not convinced that he actually wants to stay that long

arnoldlayne · Feb 1, 2011

trasores said:
THIS.

identify the players that you want and can afford... For example Vucinic is of around £65k per week so an offer of £80k may suit.

but when we are looking at players who are already on £80k - £100k per week (and especially those who play in spain who benefit from the club paying the players tax) we are going to have to offer them a large wedge to get them to uproot their family etc.

Suarez - overpriced, good in holland but not sure if he'd have suited our system.
Carroll - overpriced, great this year and would have been great for us (people forget that he did score in the PL a few seasons back too)
Torres - Overpriced and waaaay out of our league regarding pay
Rossi - overprice, great in spain and against us in pre season but would he have fitted into our system?
Fabiano - overpriced, on the decline - bullet dodged
Forlan - overpriced, 32 now and has faded since world cup.
Adam - unsure of price, good player who would have been a short term solution for a long term price.
Aguero - Publicity stunt, to expensive, wages to high, he wouldnt come to us.
Neville - too old but would have given us cover and experience. derisory offer means levy didnt really want him.

Its over now and we need to move on

Harry has to grow a pair and play VDV on the left against Blackburn and play 2 upfront or play Pav and VDV up front.:shrug:

OK so now all the strikers have been classed as poor, who would you have gone for? Or do you believe we have better in Crouch et al?

dirtydave · Feb 1, 2011

Saw this on twitter can anybody verify it?
Clubs net spend since 1992.
#mcfc - £455m, #cfc - £452m, #lfc - £240m, #thfc - £197m, #mufc - £139m, #avfc - £134m.

JD82 · Feb 1, 2011

Just like to add my thanks to the mods/RRs/ITKs and the general posters for making it an interesting window yet again.

Not the best window for Spurs, but some of the anti Harry/Levy comments. As well as the "we're doomed" merchants on here are quite frankly embarrasing and I can't read any more of it.

Now lets get our season back on track at Blackburn! COYS!!!

brasil_spur · Feb 1, 2011

dirtydave said:
Saw this on twitter can anybody verify it?
Clubs net spend since 1992.
#mcfc - £455m, #cfc - £452m, #lfc - £240m, #thfc - £197m, #mufc - £139m, #avfc - £134m.

If you change that to since 2005 then we come 2nd (actually 3rd now i would imagine after Chelsea's spending yesterday).

southparkspurs · Feb 1, 2011

trasores said:
THIS.

identify the players that you want and can afford... For example Vucinic is of around £65k per week so an offer of £80k may suit.

but when we are looking at players who are already on £80k - £100k per week (and especially those who play in spain who benefit from the club paying the players tax) we are going to have to offer them a large wedge to get them to uproot their family etc.

Suarez - overpriced, good in holland but not sure if he'd have suited our system.
Carroll - overpriced, great this year and would have been great for us (people forget that he did score in the PL a few seasons back too)
Torres - Overpriced and waaaay out of our league regarding pay
Rossi - overprice, great in spain and against us in pre season but would he have fitted into our system?
Fabiano - overpriced, on the decline - bullet dodged
Forlan - overpriced, 32 now and has faded since world cup.
Adam - unsure of price, good player who would have been a short term solution for a long term price.
Aguero - Publicity stunt, to expensive, wages to high, he wouldnt come to us.
Neville - too old but would have given us cover and experience. derisory offer means levy didnt really want him.

Its over now and we need to move on

Harry has to grow a pair and play VDV on the left against Blackburn and play 2 upfront or play Pav and VDV up front.:shrug:

This post sums it up really, I think apart from getting Benzema on loan we couldve really made a mistake paying ridiculous amounts!
Maybe we have a wonderkid on our books ready to be tried- Kane?!?

We have to really put faith in our strikers now, let's remember we still are top scorers in champs league

Alfieconnman · Feb 1, 2011

I'm another one of the minority who are not part of the suicide squad. The "knockers" always seem to think that making excellent signings is a piece of cake. It clearly is not, particularly in the January window when selling clubs hold out for the highest possible price from buying clubs that have to make a signing to either aviod relegation or push for a top spot. It is not only a case of paying top dollar, it is also meeting the players wage demands. Because we are an exceptionally well run club, in excellent shape financially, we can go out and make expensive signings but it is usually the wages that are the problem. The new rules on wages against turnover will always put us at a disadvantage in this respect until we have a new, much larger, stadium. A 36,000 capacity club cannot compete with a club that can fill a 60,000+ ground. The loans of players that we have made have taken approximately £10 million a year off our wage bill which will be a big help in negotiating future contracts.

In the days running up to the end of the window loads of posters were demanding that we buy Torres at any price, Carroll at any price, in fact anyone at any price. All these rants were sheer lunacy and people must accept that we simply can't match the deals in terms of wages that Chelsea/Liverpool/Arsenal/Man Utd/Man Citeh etc. can pay even if we can match the purchase prices. I would have liked Carroll but not at £35 million.

We have a great squad, possibly the best in depth in the EPL and are punching well above our weight for a small stadium club. Until we have the income that a big stadium can generate we will just have to make do. Once the new ground is up and running we will be in a position to take on most of our competitors on more equal terms.

My only gripe is that Harry does not seem to be making the best use of the squad he has at his disposal and persists playing out of form favourites. VDV has lost a bit of his early promise, Crouch is continually played when he clearly is not up to the job as a sole striker and we have nobody else that can perform that role. I'm sure that this will be addressed in the summer but in the meantime I'm surprised that HR does not go back to the two up front system that produced far more goals last season.

al_pacino · Feb 1, 2011

arnoldlayne said:
OK so now all the strikers have been classed as poor, who would you have gone for? Or do you believe we have better in Crouch et al?

I think this is the problem we have, if you ignore the form they're in we have good if not topclass forwards.

Look at the strikers we could get that play in the PL and its a pretty uninspiring bunch(Rodallega, Elmander, Zamora, C Cole,Doyle), these players aren't a clear improvement above what we have and all those bar Elmander would cost well above £10 mill.

WE're stuck in a middle round with the ambition to go forward but not the funds to do it (i'm not sure who does outside of Chelsea and Man C). Peole have said it before but I think we need to take a gamble on a few younger players from a smaller league but this is an even bigger risk than sticking with what we have.

Big AL Hoddle · Feb 1, 2011

Motivation

In my company, if an employee under-performs, a set process kicks in, where the first stage in a dismissal process is an official warning, giving the employee a chance to improve. The employee will either pull up socks and get on with it, or say sod it, and wait it out until given the boot.

If one applies this to running a club, where the employees are players, I guess one can presume that trying (like deranged madmen and failing) to bring in another striker, is that first official warning, and even in Pav's case, lining up a deal to move him on... BUT, how will they react, our strikers, pull the finger out and get on with what they are being paid a fortune to do, and redeem themselves or feel unwanted and sink to new depths?

SamR · Feb 1, 2011

To be fair we did a fantastic job to get champions league last year. It's going to be even tougher to qualify for next year's competition, so i guess we just have to enjoy the little taster that this year has brought.

On the transfer front, I'm in agreement with those who thought this was our opportunity to move on. My concern is that if we clearly can't compete on wages, so surely our scouting network should be able to come up with something else. I can't believe that there isn't someone out there, relatively unknown to the masses who could make a difference. It didn't necessarily have to be a Forlan, Suarez. Harry obviously wants certain attributes in a player, and there must certainly be players that would fit the mould who wouldn't cost a fortune in wages.

I actually can't see the summer being any different. We'll flog a few, bring in some good squad players and strengthen to a degree. We'll get the OS approval and when the ball is rolling on that we'll be taken over by some sugar daddy group.

It's not to say Levy and Harry haven't done a good job though.. beating arsenal, chelsea, liverpool in recent seasons tells us that were still on the up.. it just might be a few more seasons until we reach the heights we all wish for.

Pauleta01 · Feb 1, 2011

Alfieconnman said:
I'm another one of the minority who are not part of the suicide squad. The "knockers" always seem to think that making excellent signings is a piece of cake. It clearly is not, particularly in the January window when selling clubs hold out for the highest possible price from buying clubs that have to make a signing to either aviod relegation or push for a top spot. It is not only a case of paying top dollar, it is also meeting the players wage demands. Because we are an exceptionally well run club, in excellent shape financially, we can go out and make expensive signings but it is usually the wages that are the problem. The new rules on wages against turnover will always put us at a disadvantage in this respect until we have a new, much larger, stadium. A 36,000 capacity club cannot compete with a club that can fill a 60,000+ ground. The loans of players that we have made have taken approximately £10 million a year off our wage bill which will be a big help in negotiating future contracts.

In the days running up to the end of the window loads of posters were demanding that we buy Torres at any price, Carroll at any price, in fact anyone at any price. All these rants were sheer lunacy and people must accept that we simply can't match the deals in terms of wages that Chelsea/Liverpool/Arsenal/Man Utd/Man Citeh etc. can pay even if we can match the purchase prices. I would have liked Carroll but not at £35 million.

We have a great squad, possibly the best in depth in the EPL and are punching well above our weight for a small stadium club. Until we have the income that a big stadium can generate we will just have to make do. Once the new ground is up and running we will be in a position to take on most of our competitors on more equal terms.

My only gripe is that Harry does not seem to be making the best use of the squad he has at his disposal and persists playing out of form favourites. VDV has lost a bit of his early promise, Crouch is continually played when he clearly is not up to the job as a sole striker and we have nobody else that can perform that role. I'm sure that this will be addressed in the summer but in the meantime I'm surprised that HR does not go back to the two up front system that produced far more goals last season.

You make some excellent points, and I agree with the sentiment, the only thing that worries me slightly is that when spending £10m + on any player any business would look at the detail of the situation e.g players physical attributes, propensity for injury, temperament, age to peak etc. All of which I felt Tottenham have been doing in the past, but the last two days just felt like a scattergun approach, maybe a little desperation. Based on analyzing all the facts noone would buy Carrol for £35m, Forlan was not the right age, Adam not even on the radar a few hours before the window shuts, what exactly are they looking at. I agree with some of the posters on here that a complete analysis on all factors should be done in advance of the window, treat it like a business, you buy small companies for less than a star player, anyone with any sense spends months assessing what they are buying. I am not sure if Spurs have lost the plot a little (if all or any of the speculation is to believe). People can argue we always leave things to late, but in the past it has been to get the best deal, Pav & Corluka were left late to get the right terms for us, as was VDV (although I bet this more of an opportunity rather than the story being banded about he was a target all along).

sheringmann · Feb 1, 2011

Its not just about the strikers...Im sure both Bentley, Keane and GDS could do a job for us in the closing stages of the season when legs are tired......and we havent got any replacements....Thats the dissappointment..

arnoldlayne · Feb 1, 2011

dirtydave said:
Saw this on twitter can anybody verify it?
Clubs net spend since 1992.
#mcfc - £455m, #cfc - £452m, #lfc - £240m, #thfc - £197m, #mufc - £139m, #avfc - £134m.

pretty sure that's true as even with Sugar we outspent Arsenal, just Badger and Graham bought utter, utter crud. Bergkamp - no thanks, C Armstrong. Overmars - no, get Sinton & Ruel Fox.

nicdic · Feb 1, 2011

Feeling pretty disappointed this morning, but this is the majority of the team that got 4th last season, plus VDV, Gallas, Pienaar and a Woodgate returning to full fitness. We're better than last season. It's not all doom and gloom. Modric is better this season and arguably the best centre mid in the league this season. If we can hit some sort of form, and play to our capabilities we'll finish the season well. It might not be good enough for 4th, but it's a huge ask. Yes we've missed a great opportunity, but it's not the end of the world.

brasil_spur · Feb 1, 2011

SamR said:
I can't believe that there isn't someone out there, relatively unknown to the masses who could make a difference. It didn't necessarily have to be a Forlan, Suarez. Harry obviously wants certain attributes in a player, and there must certainly be players that would fit the mould who wouldn't cost a fortune in wages.

There are definitely players out there. What most clubs do when in our position is buy in players that have a strong potential to become quality. Like we did with Berbatov.

But Harry seemingly wants a player who is also a leader and a great person, as he said on ssn yesterday.

This is why we didn't sign Suarez IMO.

Summary: our scouting network is shit OR Harry doesn't believe in signing players in this way.

Alfieconnman · Feb 1, 2011

Pauleta01 said:
You make some excellent points, and I agree with the sentiment, the only thing that worries me slightly is that when spending £10m + on any player any business would look at the detail of the situation e.g players physical attributes, propensity for injury, temperament, age to peak etc. All of which I felt Tottenham have been doing in the past, but the last two days just felt like a scattergun approach, maybe a little desperation. Based on analyzing all the facts noone would buy Carrol for £35m, Forlan was not the right age, Adam not even on the radar a few hours before the window shuts, what exactly are they looking at. I agree with some of the posters on here that a complete analysis on all factors should be done in advance of the window, treat it like a business, you buy small companies for less than a star player, anyone with any sense spends months assessing what they are buying. I am not sure if Spurs have lost the plot a little (if all or any of the speculation is to believe). People can argue we always leave things to late, but in the past it has been to get the best deal, Pav & Corluka were left late to get the right terms for us, as was VDV (although I bet this more of an opportunity rather than the story being banded about he was a target all along).

I don't disagree - although of course we are not privy to quite how things operate behind the scenes. Maybe if we went back to having a DOF these problems, if indeed they do exist, could be addressed.

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