Ratings vs Fulham

Its been building up I fear.

Thev Liverpool game was lost through a couple of silly errors - but should have been won.

The Inter game - I think we saw an inexperienced manager (Acamemia 1 year, Porto 1 year even with great success, Chelse 1 year reality check) panic with the loss of Bale and put out a clusterfuck team selection (causing the majority of the team to be knackered after 120 minutes), learn maybe a little from that to keep Dembele in the middle but panic again over lack of width to which his solution of BAE as a LW was not great, and it maybe went downhiill from there.

IMO, part of the problem goes back to the first half of the season - he was totally averse to playing any of the 20/21 year old players we have in abundance who are tearing apart every other PL side. Had he done so, he would have found he had some 20/21 year old good players - and maybe even after loaning out lots of them he had a genuine RW (Ryan Fredericks) who played 3 or 4 games in Europa League lasdt seasoin and Dean Parrett, a decent boix to biox midfielder. Both could have been involved in the last couple of games and added the extraplayers to prevent apparantly fatigued players. Again IMO its a sign of inexperience that he's not uinvolved thenm more (the likes of Man U under Fergusson have involved their u 21's more) resulting in a tired squad.

I hope the 2 week international break will allow AVB the time to work out what went wrong with his tactics (someone please send him a link to SC please) and to work with the players not on international duty - and start to involve the best of the younger players in training so as to enlarge the available squad.

If AVB does that the position is very recoverable.

Spursidol said:

Its been building up I fear.

Thev Liverpool game was lost through a couple of silly errors - but should have been won.

The Inter game - I think we saw an inexperienced manager (Acamemia 1 year, Porto 1 year even with great success, Chelse 1 year reality check) panic with the loss of Bale and put out a clusterfuck team selection (causing the majority of tyhe team to be knackered after 120 minutes), learn maybe a little from that to keep Dembele in the middle but panic again over lack of width to which his solution of BAE as a LW was not great, and it maybe wenbt downhiill from there.

IMO, part of the problem goes back to the first half of the season - he was totally aveerse to playing any of the 20/21 year old players we have in abundance who are tearing apart every other PL side. Had he done so, he would have found he had some 20/21 year old good players - and maybe even after loaning out lots of them he had a genuine RW (Ryan Fredericks) who played 3 or 4 games in Europa League lasdt seasoin and Dean Parrett, a decent boix to biox midfielder. Both could have been involved in the last couple of games and added the extraplayers to prevent apparantly fatigued players. Again IMO its a sign of inexperience that he's not uinvolved thenm more (the likes of Man U under Fergusson have involved their u 21's more) resulting in a tired squad.

I hope the 2 week international break will allow AVB the time to work out what went wrong with his tactics (someone please send him a link to SC please) and to work with the players not on international duty - and start to involve the best of the younger players in training so as to enlarge the available squad.

If AVB does that the position is very recoverable.

Click to expand...

I completely agree, and was saying the same earlier in the season. I fear it is too late now though SI. Many of the good-uns are out on loan. Even a few of the half decent ones. I like much of what AVB has done, but I really believe we would have benefitted from making more use of our development squad this season.

Lloris 5.5
Naughton 6.5
Caulker 5.5
Dawson 6
Vertonghen 6
Parker 6
Dembele 6
Sigurdsson 5.5
BAE 5
Bale 7 feel sorry for him, injuried but was the most active player!!
Adebayor 5

Dempsey 3.5
Defoe 5.5
Carroll 7 put 110%, good passes and one superb tackle

AVB 4

even thought Levy share the blame as i said during the whole season we need natural wingers to be backup for Lennon & Bale, but AVB share the blame for this, he got everything wrong in this game, Ekotto never as left winger in 4-5-1 or 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 in such home game, while also Sigurdsson on right isn't his best 2 possible positions!

i think Dembele played well enough vs Liverpool to keep his place, or if Sigurdsson asked to be natural winger, then Bale should keep be backed as LM and Holtby as behind striker, Dembele even with Carroll as CM. or Even go with 4-4-2 with Sigudsson on left and Bale or Dembele on right.

He had better options than what he did yesterday, hopefuly AVB won't do the same formation again, i can see this he didn't repeat his mistake vs QPR (H) when he filled Bale as LB, and saw our attacks so poor without him.

Agree with gen ratings...few random points.

In our 12 match unbeaten run..was it 1 or two that was by more than one goal ? . How many times did Bale or Dembele step up in the dying moments to save our asses ? . We've had a fair slice of good fortune to carry us to 3rd ,one goal wins are open to chance turning round and kicking us .

I've enjoyed AVB's absolute confidence in Press conferences . He's dismissed completely the possibility of Europa matches affecting our Prem form .' We do better after Europa matches' was one comment . Seemed to go against all conventional wisdom . Anyway , he's young and will have learned a lesson on that score yesterday .Team was knackered .
I also think his substitutions were well strange AVB 3

Yes Ade (5) ran about . What is baffling me is how he never gets a header in the box or runs into space in the box where a pass can come to his feet for a goal scoring opportunity . Defoe (5) comes on and in his 20 mins gets a golden chance where the ball comes to him in space in the box . We need satellite tracking of Ade throughout the whole match to try and work out why he is SO shit at finding space/goal scoring opportunities in the box . People comment..'He doesn't look like scoring' Its true but why does he get so few chances ? Hiding ?. its a mystery to me . His form has been concealed by Bale genius recently .Its a very big problem for us now .

I see a lot of ratings giving Parker (5) the worst in the team . I find this unjust . In the 1st half he was the only man trying to do anything . He put in a fair number of accurate forward passes and drove forward. 2nd half yes he faded but I'm just complaining at him being singled out for extra grief .

The big question is...Is this a typical Spurs March collapse ? . I wonder .

Alot of strange decisions by AVB which cost us,alot of poor performances too against probably the one team i would have chosen to play against at home after the defeat in Milan.
Fulham had an ageing greek running the midfield and hopeless Senderos and Hangerland at the back.

Avb's team selection was baffling, 3 days earlier we were defending a 3 goal lead and went 4-4-2...and then we play Fulham at home and play 3 centrehalves and a fullback, (a poor one imo) in midfield , i'm thinking maybe he got the teamsheets mixed up for both games?

That was by far our worse performance and team selection of the season, and i'm hoping it was a one off and put it down to fatigue, but it is still baffling as to why Avb played 'fans favourite' benny in midfield, whilst totally ignoring a fresh Holtby all day, even to the extent of suddenly springing Dempsey on us again.

Gilzeanking said:

I've enjoyed AVB's absolute confidence in Press conferences . He's dismissed completely the possibility of Europa matches affecting our Prem form .' We do better after Europa matches' was one comment . Seemed to go against all conventional wisdom . Anyway , he's young and will have learned a lesson on that score yesterday .Team was knackered .

Click to expand...

Ha ha . Shows what I know . In his post match interview he states clearly. 'Fatigue was not a factor in our defeat'

You get the feeling that Dempsey and Defoe as senior players are automatic first substitutions.

This isn't good. Keeping them out of the team is a challenge in itself & Dempsey's existence has kept Siggi back, whilst if the world didn't have a Defoe in it we'd have someone else too.Wishful thinking.

It's easy just to think we've missed Lennon, but him &Defoe were the worst culprits when we were playing badly & winning.
I don't know what the answer is, but round pegs in square holes it isn't & yesterday had all the hallmarks of shoehorning a tired squad into a team. Naughton, Ekotto & Sigurdsson all started in positions they just haven't been playing in, & that's just naive management to expect that to pay off.

The Townsend loan in particular always struck me as being a really odd one. We have so little cover in the 'natural width and quite fast' department, we'd failed to get a Willian-esque upgrade, Townsend's presumably on bugger all money, so it wasn't like we needed him off the wage bill. I know I wasn't the only one, too, so this isn't just some wonderful hindsight. I guess they didn't foresee the injury problems that would see him getting enough time to bring him on, but it was an error

Anyway, scores… I dunno. No one had a particularly great game.

Carroll looked lively when he came on, so will be default man of the match just because he seemed to give a shit, despite not playing much of the match, quite rightly having bundles of energy having not played much, and not much of his passing actually coming off

Which says more about the poor showings by the rest of the team than it does about his obvious talent

Carroll 6, rest 5? I dunno

We miss Lennon. Always do when he's injured. Under rated by far too many. Gives us balance and threat with his pace. Also makes the pitch wider for us, takes pressure off Bale and gives the oppo something else to think about

I'm not saying we havnt had any poor games with Lennon but we’re a much better team with Aarron Lennon and we have been ever since we signed him

Gilzeanking said:

Yes Ade (5) ran about . What is baffling me is how he never gets a header in the box or runs into space in the box where a pass can come to his feet for a goal scoring opportunity . We need satellite tracking of Ade throughout the whole match to try and work out why he is SO shit at finding space/goal scoring opportunities in the box . People comment..'He doesn't look like scoring' Its true but why does he get so few chances ? Hiding ?. its a mystery to me . His form has been concealed by Bale genius recently .Its a very big problem for us now .

Click to expand...

Honestly? Yes.

Thought I would wait until this morning, don't really know why, don't feel any better about it.

As I said on another thread, this has been coming, these last 3 games. We skanked a few teams during our run of 12 games unbeaten, skanked or were 'Baled' out whichever way you want to look at it.

I love AVB as a bloke.

I don't know why so many people were shitting themselves over us playing a 442 away at Inter, when in reality, we have been playing a bastardized 442 for the majority of the season. At the start of the season it was Dempsey as the second striker, now it is Bale. He's playing the Rooney role for England, basically getting on the ball wherever he can because he's the best player.

It was unfortunately another brain fart from Villas-Boas, the second in 3 days. Benni at LM? Fuck. Off. It wasn't so much the ridiculous notion of playing a LB at LM, which is stupid enough, but it was utterly pointless. The only reason Benni was there was to keep 'shape' and cross balls into the box. With Bale doing what he wants, we have no shape anyway, and why on earth do you set up with a winger who is there to swing balls into the box when we don't have any ****s in the box?

The subs just aren't even worth talking about from a tactical point of view. Dempsey is effective on a good day, but even on a good day he is hardly 'cute'. Being rusty, he was as cute as a drowning puppy. The Carroll sub was about half an hour too late in coming and should have been on for the diabolical Dembele much earlier.

The defence were rarely threatened apart from the ball over the top, and without labouring a point about Naughton, his constantly getting the wrong side of a defender is worse than Walker on a bad day, and he is incapable of moving with the ball at his feet. He doesn't offer an overlap. He's basically the RB version of Livermore, playing at least one league above himself. He's nearly 25, and I really cant see where he is going to improve. Assou-Ekotto was no better when moved to LB from his bogus starting position, he doesn't fit this robotic stance that we have this year, he's one that needs to be upgraded. Shame as he seems like a good guy and seems to enjoy it here.

I do love AVB, as a bloke.

I'm not buying into the fatigue thing for our lack of movement, it has been pony and rigid unless we're trying to give the ball to Bale, but he now has so many people on him it's becoming more difficult and he ends up doing what he did on Sunday and picking the ball up from our CBs. People moan at Parker for slowing down the play, if he had any ****s moving for him it wouldn't matter so much. And it wont be popular but he doesn't slow the play down anywhere near as much as Dembele does.

Ratings or whatever:

Lloris: 6 - Fuck all to do, standard mark for GK.

Naughton: 5 - Meh
Dawson: 6 - Pretty untroubled when he was on the pitch
Caulker: 5 - Pretty ordinary yesterday, young and will hopefully continue to improve
Vertonghen: 6 - Was the best of a bad bunch of the defenders
Assou-Ekotto: 4 - Poor when stupidly played out of position, no better when he went to his favoured.

Parker: See below which pretty much nails it for me but I'm going to give up rating him as he's clearly the new hate figure.

Gilzeanking said:

I see a lot of ratings giving Parker (5) the worst in the team . I find this unjust . In the 1st half he was the only man trying to do anything . He put in a fair number of accurate forward passes and drove forward. 2nd half yes he faded but I'm just complaining at him being singled out for extra grief .

Click to expand...

Dembele: 4 - Diabolical game. Lost the ball 4 times in the first 5 minutes then hid for the majority of the rest of the half. Didn't show, didn't look like he wanted to be out there to be honest.
Sigurdsson: 5 - Huffed and puffed a lot, but pretty laboured and obviously ineffectual from the right, but we knew that anyway.

Bale: 6 - Even when he has a bad game he's still a cut above everyone else.
Adebayor: 5 - One of his more hardworking performances, but still not really a threat in front of goal. Spent too much time on the left wing in the second half, where Bale should have been in my opinion. I am hoping this was just him doing what he wanted so that he can take the blame and not another tactical balls up from AVB.

I love AVB, as a bloke.

Tommy Carroll looked lively when he came on and I wouldn't be upset if we used him a lot more for the run in. Looks full of energy, but then he should do. He's hardly played any fucking football.

Glad we've got two weeks off to be honest for a bit of re-assessment, only thing nagging at me at the moment is that I'm spending 5 hours on a train to get to Swansea on the 30th...

scat1620 said:

Nah, disagree with that. Numbers aren't half as good a way of putting your point across than a good description of your opinion. In the same way that Mark Kermode doesn't need to give a film a rating out of 5 stars for you to have a bloody good idea of whether he thinks the film is any good or not. Even when I think BC is talking twaddle (not so often these days), I get a far better idea of what he's thinking by just reading his posted opinions rather than assigning arbitrary numbers (which don't allow for shades of nuance) to the quality of players' performances.

Click to expand...

An analysis followed by a mark is so much better especially from BC.

Spurs_Bear said:

Adebayor: 5 - Spent too much time on the left wing in the second half, where Bale should have been in my opinion. I am hoping this was just him doing what he wanted so that he can take the blame and not another tactical balls up from AVB.

Click to expand...

If you were at the game might not have been something you picked up, but when Defoe came on Adebayor was the recipient of one of AVB's notes. So draw your own conclusions.

mpickard2087 said:

If you were at the game might not have been something you picked up, but when Defoe came on Adebayor was the recipient of one of AVB's notes. So draw your own conclusions.

Click to expand...

Aye I was...oh dear.

If by some miracle we qualify for next years CL, the club will reach a position that then defines it's standing for future years. To consolidate or improve, there will be a huge requirement for better players. Better players = Substantial investment. Alternatively we can continue to pick up inferior shite and blend them in with the quality like this year and last year and the year before that, but the danger of doing this, is that the quality of Bale, Dembele, Lennon, Veronghen and Lloris will see through this and set their sights on a career elsewhere that will give them a far greater chance of success.

Dembele is really starting to get on my goat with his lack of penetration, has all the ability to glide past people and then when he does he won't choose passing the ball with any real intent to create something over keeping the ball.

Luka made us tick and probed and made key passes, Dembele plays it far safer than him and its gotten to the point now where Parker is the one driving forward from midfield trying to ask questions of the opposition which shouldn't really be happening.

Tom Carroll stuck out like a sore thumb as he took a bit of responsibility over creating something and trying to penetrate, it shouldn't take a (talented) kid to come on at 1-0 down and try to get us back into it...he showed more courage and belief in his own ability than anyone else in Lilywhite, this should NOT be the case.

When Bale and Lennon aren't at it, we are sorely lacking in creativity and even Holtby's bright start has faded somewhat. With forwards playing poorly, a lack of service is really worrying and the failings in the squad are starting to show...at a point where we need people to stand up and be counted.

The wobble is well and truly on, massive fucking déjà-vu about it too.

And for all the criticism of JD, at least he got a couple of shots on target, which is more than can be said for Adebaysnore (looks half asleep most of the time) and most of the rest of the team...when JD was about to come on Ade went mental running about closing people down etc., it was noticeable as it was the quickest he moved all day, he must have thought he was getting the shepherd's crook (nothing like a sub warming up to make you look a bit interested eh?). How much is he on a week again?

Spurs break your heart every time, no matter how fucking used to it you are. Really need to turn this around now!

I think some people need to fucking get a grip on things here. Until one week ago when Kyle Walker decided to play Stewart Downing through on goal everything was reasonably rosy, fast forward to 7 days later and suddenly Spurs fans should have all their sharp instruments confiscated. Such is the schizophrenic nature of football fans these days I guess, which leads to us being booed off by a bunch of complete oxygen wasting fuckwits who I would gladly ban them from ever entering WHL ever again.

This game was coming, it was a exhausted performance which laid bare the fact we'd played 120 mentally/physically draining minutes on Thursday evening. I know this a narrative that football fans hate to hear, but it's none the less true and backed up with evidence, if you have only 2 days recovery time then you are less likely to win by a large margin. And quelle fucking surprise we didn't.

We're 4th in the league, we have a top coach who has taken a lesser group of individuals than the last guy had and has eked results out of them that many didn't see possible, and we've only just come off one of the best runs of league results we can point to in our history. A couple of fuck ups at Anfield, a horrendous trip to Italy which we still showed a shred of something to come out winners and then consequently a tired game a couple of days later and the white flags are coming out. Yeah I know we've been there before, we've all got a collection of T Shirts to show for our history of snatching defeat from beyond the jaws of victory, but fucking hell some of you make my teeth itch.

Even if we don't get there, AVB has still shown more than enough to show he is the man who will take us forward, and I still think we'll finish 4th too. I have more faith in him than Redknapp's chuck it and chance it approach.

I do think some of his decisions were odd yesterday, BAE at LM was one of those decisions that may look convincing in theory, but is actually shit on grass - there to provide width and some balls in the box he did make 10 crosses and I'd like to think that Ade or BAle may have got on the end of one of them but it turned out a majority of his crosses were pretty woeful.

I also can't fathom why he put Dempsey on either, but then again I'm not quite sure why footballers like Dempsey exist in the first place, and that does sound harsh I understand, but I just don't get it. The Carroll sub was a good one and gave us exactly what we needed, but this kid should be starting games now - he played with some bollocks and quality and the moment where he skipped a tackle and almost laid in Bale (carrying a knock for the second half) was inches away from being a thing of great beauty. AVB, let this kid play, please.

The problem though is Bale, as much as it is our greatest strength - with him playing through the middle he has won us points, but I think it disrupts a balance we may have with him starting wider, at too many times he joins Ade so we end up in a 4-4-2 shape which shackles Dembele and Parker. Add Carroll (or Holtby) to those 2 and you have a balance in CM, and then you have Ade Bale and Lennon in a forward 3 which is reasonably balanced in terms of attributes despite a clear lack of craft in the final third.

I'm not doing ratings this week, it was all pretty pedestrian from players and fans alike, and I think AVB didn't do the best with the cards he had at his disposal, but I still back him to pull off 4th which I think would be quite the achievement.

ShelfSide18 said:

I think some people need to fucking get a grip on things here. Until one week ago when Kyle Walker decided to play Stewart Downing through on goal everything was reasonably rosy, fast forward to 7 days later and suddenly Spurs fans should have all their sharp instruments confiscated. Such is the schizophrenic nature of football fans these days I guess, which leads to us being booed off by a bunch of complete oxygen wasting fuckwits who I would gladly ban them from ever entering WHL ever again.

This game was coming, it was a exhausted performance which laid bare the fact we'd played 120 mentally/physically draining minutes on Thursday evening. I know this a narrative that football fans hate to hear, but it's none the less true and backed up with evidence, if you have only 2 days recovery time then you are less likely to win by a large margin. And quelle fucking surprise we didn't.

We're 4th in the league, we have a top coach who has taken a lesser group of individuals than the last guy had and has eked results out of them that many didn't see possible, and we've only just come off one of the best runs of league results we can point to in our history. A couple of fuck ups at Anfield, a horrendous trip to Italy which we still showed a shred of something to come out winners and then consequently a tired game a couple of days later and the white flags are coming out. Yeah I know we've been there before, we've all got a collection of T Shirts to show for our history of snatching defeat from beyond the jaws of victory, but fucking hell some of you make my teeth itch.

Even if we don't get there, AVB has still shown more than enough to show he is the man who will take us forward, and I still think we'll finish 4th too. I have more faith in him than Redknapp's chuck it and chance it approach.

I do think some of his decisions were odd yesterday, BAE at LM was one of those decisions that may look convincing in theory, but is actually shit on grass - there to provide width and some balls in the box he did make 10 crosses and I'd like to think that Ade or BAle may have got on the end of one of them but it turned out a majority of his crosses were pretty woeful.

I also can't fathom why he put Dempsey on either, but then again I'm not quite sure why footballers like Dempsey exist in the first place, and that does sound harsh I understand, but I just don't get it. The Carroll sub was a good one and gave us exactly what we needed, but this kid should be starting games now - he played with some bollocks and quality and the moment where he skipped a tackle and almost laid in Bale (carrying a knock for the second half) was inches away from being a thing of great beauty. AVB, let this kid play, please.

The problem though is Bale, as much as it is our greatest strength - with him playing through the middle he has won us points, but I think it disrupts a balance we may have with him starting wider, at too many times he joins Ade so we end up in a 4-4-2 shape which shackles Dembele and Parker. Add Carroll (or Holtby) to those 2 and you have a balance in CM, and then you have Ade Bale and Lennon in a forward 3 which is reasonably balanced in terms of attributes despite a clear lack of craft in the final third.

I'm not doing ratings this week, it was all pretty pedestrian from players and fans alike, and I think AVB didn't do the best with the cards he had at his disposal, but I still back him to pull off 4th which I think would be quite the achievement.

Click to expand...

Been saying this to mate - people want to dismiss it and cite its practice for next year with CL and League games to manage. The truth of the matter is that our squad isn't equipped to go the distance in both competitions IMO (this season)

Mr Pink said:

Been saying this to mate - people want to dismiss it and cite its practice for next year with CL and League games to manage. The truth of the matter is that our squad isn't equipped to go the distance in both competitions IMO (this season)

Click to expand...

Well I do think it should be used as practice for CL (if/when we get there), but it's just a fact of life that playing midweek European games in a country where it isn't (but should be) mandated that teams get a minimum of 3 days recovery time like Portugal, then league performance is going to be affected. No matter how much AVB calls it science fiction, and I think this was another comment trying to court the press like a few he's made recently, no matter how much these players earn, these games happen when you are tired after midweek fixtures.

I think AVB should be using our squad a bit better, Tom Carroll for one should be starting EPL games, and Townsend to QPR was I think ill advised, and I feel like i'm in a minority of about 3 here but when I saw Jenas stab the ball home on Saturday I was struggling to work out what Huddleplod and Livermore offer that he doesn't but I guess I'll only have SCs busiest xxxx to back me up on that one.

If we get CL and maintain a Europa League challenge then we'll be defying hurdles I never thought we could jump - and the thing is I want both so very badly, but ultimately don't think we can do both.

ShelfSide18 said:

Well I do think it should be used as practice for CL (if/when we get there), but it's just a fact of life that playing midweek European games in a country where it isn't (but should be) mandated that teams get a minimum of 3 days recovery time like Portugal, then league performance is going to be affected. No matter how much AVB calls it science fiction, and I think this was another comment trying to court the press like a few he's made recently, no matter how much these players earn, these games happen when you are tired after midweek fixtures.

I think AVB should be using our squad a bit better, Tom Carroll for one should be starting EPL games, and Townsend to QPR was I think ill advised, and I feel like i'm in a minority of about 3 here but when I saw Jenas stab the ball home on Saturday I was struggling to work out what Huddleplod and Livermore offer that he doesn't but I guess I'll only have SCs busiest xxxx to back me up on that one.

If we get CL and maintain a Europa League challenge then we'll be defying hurdles I never thought we could jump - and the thing is I want both so very badly, but ultimately don't think we can do both.

Click to expand...

And second busiest...