The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 4th June 2014

Gaz_Gammon · Jun 4, 2014

Spursidol said:
Not sure he demanded to start every game - and for most players that proved impossible lat season.

In terms of hs Cardiff performance, the post you duasagreed with (but thin k its just youb didn't like its factual content) included the fact that the 'whoscored' website had him in their team of the season.

Its a well regarded website. All websites will have their own criteria for assessing who is the best but its pretty conclusive that he was far from bad.

Suggest you put your prejudices aside.

Correct me if a am wrong on this, but wasn't that the team of the season Conference South Division?........... :whistle:

TEESSIDE1 · Jun 4, 2014

dagraham said:
If we resign Caulker it will just show our transfer policy is a complete joke.

If he wasn't good enough 12 months ago, how is he good enough now? It's hardly like he's turned into the PL best defender.

And if he was rated before, maybe we should have kept him so we wouldn't have got thrashed so often.

As somebody joked earlier, are we a football club or a commodities trader?

You can coach a player and work on this positional play and reading of the game but you can't magically improve someones turn of pace or ability. Caulker ala Dawson are good against physical teams who lump the ball forward but against the modern tricky and quick midfielder/forward ... they're a disaster waiting to happen.

Spursidol · Jun 4, 2014

dagraham said:
If we resign Caulker it will just show our transfer policy is a complete joke.

If he wasn't good enough 12 months ago, how is he good enough now? It's hardly like he's turned into the PL best defender.

And if he was rated before, maybe we should have kept him so we wouldn't have got thrashed so often.

As somebody joked earlier, are we a football club or a commodities trader?

Spurs1 said:
I agree, caulker isn't good enough for what we are going to be trying to do. We need quick agile defenders which caulker is not. He is strong and solid but will be caught out in our high line. Lets not waste our money on him please

Deja vu.

I seem to remember similar comments about Kaboul before his return.

Now people can't bear the thought of him being too badly injured to get back to form

Blackrat1299 · Jun 4, 2014

This has the hallmark of an exciting ITK period, nearly 8 pages of Caulker!!!

TEESSIDE1 · Jun 4, 2014

Spursidol said:
Deja vu.

I seem to remember similar comments about Kaboul before his return.

Now people can't bear the thought of him being too badly injured to get back to form

Kaboul was a beast, had all the attributes you would want in a defender ... strength, aggression, pace, good on the ball. Caulker is nowhere near the player Kaboul was. I hope Kaboom gets the chance to prove his fitness and show us his pre-injury performances.

SpurSince57 · Jun 4, 2014

Spursidol said:
Very KInd sir !

Milos Veljkovic was playing as a CM/DM whilst at FC Basle before joining Spurs and proving to be an excellent young CB for 2 seasons, before playing as a DM last season, again excellently.

He's still 18, 19 in Speptember, and as we know made his first 2 short appearances off the bench last season.

Next season I'd like to see him get more appearances, eithas a DM or as a CB (I think he can play both) but not as a regular starter next season , more as a 5th choice otherwise we are putting too much pressure on the lad. In 2016/17 I am pretty sure he will be good as a regular starter, but next season is too soon.

Stven Caulker for £6m. Perfect replacement for Dawson, I'd snap Cardiff's hands off.

At age 22 he's still got some learning to do, but the fact he's played almost 100 PL games at that age is almost extraordinary - there will be few others with that experience at that age.

He was in the team of the season next season in the 'whoscored' website for his loack of errors.

He's also the ONLY outfield player to play all 38 PL matches last season, so given the injuries (to Kaboul, Vertonghen and Chiriches) owe had last season (and baled out last season at CB by the almost ever available Dawson) he's the perfect replacement.

One major benefit being that he will not require much time to adjust to Spurs as an old boy and PL regular - unlike virtually any other likely replacements.

I think Kaboul's injury situation will be assessed later in pre-season to see if he can get back to his pre-injury form or not - and oif not we need a second CB. Unless of course the decision has alreay been taken that we need a replacement.

The 2nd CB is likely to require some time to adjust to Spurs, so having Caulker back will mean we have only one CB to adjust - it could be suicidal to have 2. He'll also be a Club trained player for us which is a big plus.

So a big yes to Caulker back - not necessarily a big upgrade on Dawson, but long term opossibly. But a much younger steady CB who could be at Spurs for a decade (and stability is important).

Compare their stats on the Telegraph pages and think again. If I'd needed convincing that flogging him was a good idea, his masterclass against Aguero did the job.

Kaboul looked completely buggered. His pace has gone, so he can't rely on that to get him out of trouble any more, and he was struggling to win tackles. Watching him last season was painful—a complete train wreck.

Lilbaz · Jun 4, 2014

mpickard2087 said:
To be honest I think it was just a case of AVB being the type of manager who isn't prepared to iron out the flaws in someone's game and spend a year or two to develop them. He wants 'ready made', to fit in with his plan of not managing for ever. I think Caulker could easily have been persuaded to stay, he played a fair bit last season, it wasn't as if he came back from Swansea and was benched the entire year. A few words of encouragement and to let him know he was right in contention for a spot and I cant see why he wouldn't have stuck it out.

Since he was never a player I don't see how he could develop a player.

spursfan77 · Jun 4, 2014

Spursidol said:
Very KInd sir !

Milos Veljkovic was playing as a CM/DM whilst at FC Basle before joining Spurs and proving to be an excellent young CB for 2 seasons, before playing as a DM last season, again excellently.

He's still 18, 19 in Speptember, and as we know made his first 2 short appearances off the bench last season.

Next season I'd like to see him get more appearances, eithas a DM or as a CB (I think he can play both) but not as a regular starter next season , more as a 5th choice otherwise we are putting too much pressure on the lad. In 2016/17 I am pretty sure he will be good as a regular starter, but next season is too soon.

Stven Caulker for £6m. Perfect replacement for Dawson, I'd snap Cardiff's hands off.

At age 22 he's still got some learning to do, but the fact he's played almost 100 PL games at that age is almost extraordinary - there will be few others with that experience at that age.

He was in the team of the season next season in the 'whoscored' website for his loack of errors.

He's also the ONLY outfield player to play all 38 PL matches last season, so given the injuries (to Kaboul, Vertonghen and Chiriches) owe had last season (and baled out last season at CB by the almost ever available Dawson) he's the perfect replacement.

One major benefit being that he will not require much time to adjust to Spurs as an old boy and PL regular - unlike virtually any other likely replacements.

I think Kaboul's injury situation will be assessed later in pre-season to see if he can get back to his pre-injury form or not - and oif not we need a second CB. Unless of course the decision has alreay been taken that we need a replacement.

The 2nd CB is likely to require some time to adjust to Spurs, so having Caulker back will mean we have only one CB to adjust - it could be suicidal to have 2. He'll also be a Club trained player for us which is a big plus.

So a big yes to Caulker back - not necessarily a big upgrade on Dawson, but long term opossibly. But a much younger steady CB who could be at Spurs for a decade (and stability is important).

I'd like to see a list of centre backs who've played as many premier league games at centre back as Caulker by his age. I bet its not many.

Eg. Ledley had only played about 60 Premier League games by the time he was 22. Rio Ferdinand had played 115 PL games and John Terry 61 PL games.

Basically, Caulker has done pretty well to play 82 games by the time he's 22 years old!

Spursidol · Jun 4, 2014

SpurSince57 said:
Compare their stats on the Telegraph pages and think again. If I'd needed convincing that flogging him was a good idea, his masterclass against Aguero did the job.

Kaboul looked completely buggered. His pace has gone, so he can't rely on that to get him out of trouble any more, and he was struggling to win tackles. Watching him last season was painful—a complete train wreck.

I don't recall too many other defenders looking good against ManCity recently when Man City were on form (but they blew hot and cold) - even Ledley struggled.

Kaboul may or may not come back to his previous form after a pre-season. If he doesn't , we cannot afford for him to be in last season's form/ - but that has yet to be decided (unless the medical staff have better info)

Spursidol · Jun 4, 2014

Lilbaz said:
Since he was never a player I don't see how he could develop a player.

Caulker was a better and more experienced CB at (then) age 21 than most now playing in PL now.

Player of the year in division 1 atr 17/18 and in the Championship at age 18/19 and Rogers delight at Swansea in PL at age 19/20.

And strongly rumoured to be on Roigers list at Liverpool

Lilbaz · Jun 4, 2014

Spursidol said:
Caulker was a better and more experienced CB at (then) age 21 than most now playing in PL now.

Player of the year in division 1 atr 17/18 and in the Championship at age 18/19 and Rogers delight at Swansea in PL at age 19/20.

And strongly rumoured to be on Roigers list at Liverpool

What has that got to do with AVB's ability to develop players?

Spursidol · Jun 4, 2014

Lilbaz said:
What has that got to do with AVB's ability to develop players?

AVB had no interest in developing young players - he only wanted to buy ready made.

Name me ANY young player he helped develop at Spurs ? Or at Chelsea before that - which is why Sturridge left for example.

Lilbaz · Jun 4, 2014

Spursidol said:
AVB had no interest in developing young players - he only wanted to buy ready made.

Name me ANY young player he helped develop at Spurs ? Or at Chelsea before that - which is why Sturridge left for example.

I was agreeing with you. I don't think he was capable of developing players as he had never been a footballer himself.

Still think we need a first choice defender rather than Caulker. We shipped too many goals last season and Jan needs competition to keep him focused.

felmani26 · Jun 4, 2014

Spursidol said:
AVB had no interest in developing young players - he only wanted to buy ready made.

Name me ANY young player he helped develop at Spurs ? Or at Chelsea before that - which is why Sturridge left for example.

Slightly unfair to bring Chelsea into the equation as his remit was clearly to bring about a swift transition from the old guard to a new, vibrant Chelsea so a youth programme was never going to be on the agenda.

Bit of a moot point really in terms of youth development at top clubs - especially in this country because no manager can truly look at a long term project as there is such immediate pressure to get results straight from the outset under increasingly trigger happy owners.

TEESSIDE1 · Jun 4, 2014

SpurSince57 said:
Compare their stats on the Telegraph pages and think again. If I'd needed convincing that flogging him was a good idea, his masterclass against Aguero did the job.

Kaboul looked completely buggered. His pace has gone, so he can't rely on that to get him out of trouble any more, and he was struggling to win tackles. Watching him last season was painful—a complete train wreck.

Gave me nightmares watching Aguero make Caulker look like an amateur and before people say we'll only play Man C twice, there's plenty of tricky players in the premier league who are capable of showing Caulker up. We've an excellent reader of the game, great on the ball and composed/very good in the tackle in Vertonghen but he's pretty slow. We therefore need a new Kaboul-esque type player a long side him.

Subject to fitness next season I'd expect:

1) Verts
2) Kaboul
3) Chiriches
4) Schar?

If Kaboul's buggered

1) Verts
2) Garay
3) Chiriches
4) Schar

Spursidol · Jun 4, 2014

Lilbaz said:
I was agreeing with you. I don't think he was capable of developing players as he had never been a footballer himself.

Still think we need a first choice defender rather than Caulker. We shipped too many goals last season and Jan needs competition to keep him focused.

I think we are very likely to need 2 CB's (I'm veery nervous about Kaboul recovering after last season's showing) and I don't think we want to bring in 2 CB's who are not familiar with Spurs and need a period of adjustment (and a repeat of buying 5 players with only Eriksen really showing his form in the first season).

So Caulker de-risks things very well fir me. Good chance that at age 22 he'll improve, but immedialy an experienced PL CB who scores goals (5 in 38 last season, 2 in about 20 for Spurs before) .....and for £6m.

NHAndy · Jun 4, 2014

Blackrat1299 said:
This has the hallmark of an exciting ITK period, nearly 8 pages of Caulker!!!

On the lack of ITK...
I remember the ITK frustration of the last World Cup. First there was no ITK because our staff was "taking a break". Then there was nothing because of the World Cup. Then there was nothing because the players who'd played in the World Cup were on holiday. Then we were waiting for everyone to get home from our summer tour.
We waited until August 20th for our first signing (Gallas) and then until the 31st (VDV)
Got a bad feeling... :0)

Spursidol · Jun 4, 2014

felmani26 said:
Slightly unfair to bring Chelsea into the equation as his remit was clearly to bring about a swift transition from the old guard to a new, vibrant Chelsea so a youth programme was never going to be on the agenda.

Bit of a moot point really in terms of youth development at top clubs - especially in this country because no manager can truly look at a long term project as there is such immediate pressure to get results straight from the outset under increasingly trigger happy owners.

I'm no expert on Chelsea. but give Sturridge effect on Liverpool (20 odd goals in his first season) I'd suggest that Sturridge was ready made to help the transition at Chelsea with almost no development.

But as I say he wanted to buy ready made.

Whilst Pl managers are under pressure to get results, there is also pressure from the Chairmen to develop youth - the minimum requirement to achieve a 25 man squad for CL is 4 Club trained footballers plus pressure to ensure thet meet FFP rules. I agree the manager needs to look longer term for these, so it may depend on whether the manager is prepared to balance short term and long term interests (or indeed is instructed to by a chairman/DoF)

yankspurs · Jun 4, 2014

Spursidol said:
AVB had no interest in developing young players - he only wanted to buy ready made.

Name me ANY young player he helped develop at Spurs ? Or at Chelsea before that - which is why Sturridge left for example.

Didnt Sturridge leave Chelsea in January of 2013? Chelsea was already on their 2nd manager post AVB by that point and AVB was our manager then. So you cant really blame Andre for that one.

Anyway, not the thread for this.

TEESSIDE1 · Jun 4, 2014

NHAndy said:
On the lack of ITK...
I remember the ITK frustration of the last World Cup. First there was no ITK because our staff was "taking a break". Then there was nothing because of the World Cup. Then there was nothing because the players who'd played in the World Cup were on holiday. Then we were waiting for everyone to get home from our summer tour.
We waited until August 20th for our first signing (Gallas) and then until the 31st (VDV)
Got a bad feeling... :0)

and don't forget 'we can't do our business until Man C and Chelsea have concluded their business 4 hours before the close of deadline day' lol

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