The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 14th July 2014

gibbospurs · Jul 16, 2014

I'm shocked so many on here are happy for us to keep signing average players because they think our new manager is going to be able to make Lennon cross a ball, soldado to score, chadli to man up, paulinho do something! Kaboul not get injured, dembele to pass forward, Townsend to stop shooting and get his head up. Good luck Poch (y)

Please let us sign a decent lb, lwf and a proper midfielder with a creative brain.

SpurSince57 · Jul 16, 2014

spurs9 said:
You could have argued the same about Eriksen last season (only the European comp was a higher level with Ajax).

Why, and so I could.

If Pochettino's judgement is so suspect, maybe we should have stuck with Sherwood.

Yiddo1982 · Jul 16, 2014

In my view, it's down to whether Davies would be a Levy purchase or a Poch purchase. If it's the latter then I'm delighted.

SpurSince57 · Jul 16, 2014

Yiddo1982 said:
In my view, it's down to whether Davies would be a Levy purchase or a Poch purchase. If it's the latter then I'm delighted.

Why are people still coming out with this bollocks?

spurs9 · Jul 16, 2014

SpurSince57 said:
Why, and so I could.

If Pochettino's judgement is so suspect, maybe we should have stuck with Sherwood.

One poor judgement doesn't make someone a shit manager. Look at how much dross Fergie signed over the years. I'm going to judge Poch on one signing and I actually quite excited to see what he can do with our talented squad.

Nanky_1988 · Jul 16, 2014

spurs9 said:
No they weren't. They made the same amount of assists (1 less than Rose), Shaw had more key passes, created more chances, dribbled past more players, had a higher % rate of success of dribbles, won more headers, won a higher % of headers and made more clearances. They won bout the same amount of tackles, but Davies lost a lot more tackles (more than he won). Davies did make more blocks (less than Rose) and had a higher % pass rate but with a shorter distance of ave pass. All those stats were based on a per 90 mins not total for the season.

Davies blocks and interception stats were far superior and the tackle stats were pretty equal, the only stat Shaw was better in was heading? So what we've established is Davies seems to be the better defender which is what he is a defender! His stats going forward arent as good true but hes still a good LB I wouldnt say hes average and hes 21 he can develop his game!

Ossie85 · Jul 16, 2014

Nanky_1988 said:
Who said Davies is "Average" I know stats dnt mean everything but his stats were better than Shaws last season!

I'm saying he's average because that's the impression I get after watching him several games.
I don't remember Davies' stats being better than Shaw's. In fact its been argued several times that we shouldn't discard Davies because of his stats. What I'm quite sure is that Rose had better stats than Davies last season. So there's no point in mentioning them.

Ossie85 · Jul 16, 2014

Nanky_1988 said:
Davies blocks and interception stats were far superior and the tackle stats were pretty equal, the only stat Shaw was better in was heading? So what we've established is Davies seems to be the better defender which is what he is a defender! His stats going forward arent as good true but hes still a good LB I wouldnt say hes average and hes 21 he can develop his game!

Given you're so fond of stats, you must've missed he was the most dribbled player of the entire league last season.

THFCSPURS19 · Jul 16, 2014

Ossie85 said:
I'm saying he's average because that's the impression I get after watching him several games.
I don't remember Davies' stats being better than Shaw's. In fact its been argued several times that we shouldn't discard Davies because of his stats. What I'm quite sure is that Rose had better stats than Davies last season. So there's no point in mentioning them.

He might be average now but you seem to be unable to recognise that in a few years under good coaching he could be an excellent LB.

spurs9 · Jul 16, 2014

Nanky_1988 said:
Davies blocks and interception stats were far superior and the tackle stats were pretty equal, the only stat Shaw was better in was heading? So what we've established is Davies seems to be the better defender which is what he is a defender! His stats going forward arent as good true but hes still a good LB I wouldnt say hes average and hes 21 he can develop his game!

Tackle stats were not equal, tackle's won were equal but Davies tackles lost stats was far worse. Interceptions, Block & tackles won stats could just mean the opposition attacked more down the left at Swansea than Southampton. However, when you are losing more tackles than you are winning (as Davies has) something is wrong with your defensive play.

spacessships · Jul 16, 2014

According to Sky Sports' @LyallThomas, Davies IS in the Swansea squad tonight.

spurs9 · Jul 16, 2014

THFCSPURS19 said:
He might be average now but you seem to be unable to recognise that in a few years under good coaching he could be an excellent LB.

We don't need a good LB in a few years, we need one now.

SpurSince57 · Jul 16, 2014

spurs9 said:
One poor judgement doesn't make someone a shit manager. Look at how much dross Fergie signed over the years. I'm going to judge Poch on one signing and I actually quite excited to see what he can do with our talented squad.

No, it doesn't. But are you saying now that Pochettino has got it wrong regarding Davies? (Assuming, of course, that there's anything in this story.)

Ledleys Knee · Jul 16, 2014

GetSpurredOn said:
Walker, Naughton/Frederiks
Davies, Rose
Chiriches, Lascalles
Vertonghen, Fryers

I'd take that. Two genuine RB's, two naturally left footed LB's, 2 senior CB's, with two younger options capable of covering the full back roles too. Definitely need at least one, maybe even two more dependant on how happy we'd be with Lascalles and Fryers, maybe retain Kaboul or sign Caulker, and take a punt on Moreno or Rojo for that bit more depth.

Not one player in those 8/9 who can head a ball. Carroll, Lukaku, Benteke etc. would have a field day.

If we lose Dawson and/or Kaboul, we need to replace them with big powerful players to complement the more cultured Verts and Chiriches.

Ossie85 · Jul 16, 2014

THFCSPURS19 said:
He might be average now but you seem to be unable to recognise that in a few years under good coaching he could be an excellent LB.

No, that's why I don't want him. I don't see any potential in him. Shaw is not that much better nowadays, but you can clearly see he has potential to be great. I just don't see that in Davies. There are things you can't coach. If it were down to coaching and effort, Dawson would be the best CB in the world right now, but he isn't

JayB · Jul 16, 2014

Don't see much point in this statistical debate to be honest. I put much more stock in attacking statistics than I do defensive statistics. Goals, assists, key passes etc. are easily quantifiable and a decent measure of individual quality. Defensive stats IMO are more heavily determined by tactical considerations.

What you won't see on Opta is that for half the season Danny Rose was played behind Eriksen with no DM giving him cover and as a result his side was targeted by opposing managers, or that Davies played in a possession-oriented system and was probably called on to defend less than an average LB might be.

I'm not saying that stats should be disregarded entirely, just that IMO they are far less important when evaluating defenders than are physical, technical, and mental attributes. I'll readily admit to being underwhelmed by the prospect of Davies but if Poch has identified him as his top target who am I to really disagree.

spurs9 · Jul 16, 2014

Nanky_1988 said:
Davies blocks and interception stats were far superior and the tackle stats were pretty equal, the only stat Shaw was better in was heading? So what we've established is Davies seems to be the better defender which is what he is a defender! His stats going forward arent as good true but hes still a good LB I wouldnt say hes average and hes 21 he can develop his game!

Forgot to add to my last post, if those stats you spoke of show Davies is a better defender than Shaw, than we should keep Rose as 1st choice, as his (in his awful season) are better than Davies.

Rose has better stats for Interceptions, tackles won (as well as less tackles lost), higher % of areal duels won and more blocks (Davies wins on clearances though). Rose also got 1 more assist in almost 1000 mins less game time.

That being said, I agree with the part of your first post where you said stats don't tell the whole story and are largely meaningless.

THFCSPURS19 · Jul 16, 2014

spurs9 said:
We don't need a good LB in a few years, we need one now.

I think he's above average, I was just using the term he used.

But does it really matter? Most don't expect to get Top 4 for the next couple of seasons so by the time we are in strong contention, he could be one of the best LBs in the league.

SpurSince57 · Jul 16, 2014

Ossie85 said:
No, that's why I don't want him. I don't see any potential in him. Shaw is not that much better nowadays, but you can clearly see he has potential to be great. I just don't see that in Davies. There are things you can't coach. If it were down to coaching and effort, Dawson would be the best CB in the world right now, but he isn't

Well, bully for you. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Yid · Jul 16, 2014

SpurSince57 said:
That rather depends on whether or not you think 18 goals constitutes a good first season.

DiscoD1882 said:
is 11 goals in 36 games a poor return from a first season?

That's 11 goals + 5 assists to be fair to Bobby Soldier!

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