Inverted Wingers

jesh · Sep 27, 2014

I've heard of false number 9 but Lennon may be the first false winger. Jokes aside, he does track back well to cover defensively. I feel that he could have been a much better player had he been coached properly when he was younger.

Dinghy · Sep 27, 2014

jesh said:
I've heard of false number 9 but Lennon may be the first false winger. Jokes aside, he does track back well to cover defensively. I feel that he could have been a much better player had he been coached properly when he was younger.

He was a winger when he was 18... He hasn't been winger for a least 3 years now... He's a right midfielder... Big difference.

whitesocks · Sep 27, 2014

the same reason Lamela plays on the right and chadli on the left.
Inverted wingers.
In fact our fullbacks were also inverted by the end.

Ghost Hardware · Sep 27, 2014

I have not issue with inverted wingers as long as that is a role they fee comfortable with a role they have played for some time. Trying to change Lennon into an inverted winger at this stage in his career is madness and I actually feel sorry for him every time he is played in that position, it really doesn't do him any favours and he clearly feels uncertain as to how to play that role.

Kiedis · Sep 27, 2014

Sherwood, AVB, Redknapp and now Poch have all seemed to make it their lives mission to transform Lennon into a left sided player. Unless he's playing like Cristiano Ronaldo in training, I really think it's time to let that experiment go.

Furthermore, his defensive work looked to be more needed on our right side with Øzil, Sanchez and Gibbs constantly overloading Naughton.

rambu · Sep 27, 2014

Having a Dirk Kuyt in the team can be very useful; but a team need to be full of weapons to have such a luxury role - which we aren't one.

SpursManChris · Sep 28, 2014

DaSpurs said:
I really don't want to come across as condescending here, especially on NLD day, but does "inverted winger" honestly have to be explained, especially considering our setups of the last two seasons?

In relation to Lennon, 'bout fuck all. Hence why my above post that he needs to go. He's done absolutely nothing contributory to attack whatsoever. But as for inverted wingers as a whole, coupled with added width through wingbacks, they cause more problems through the middle ideally. Problem is, before today, we've not played a transitional player in the holding two so as to give them that added space to work with (we've been so predictable and meandering, it's been extremely easy for opposition sides to shut down our supply lanes).

I should have been more clear. I know what inverted winger means. When i seemingly posed the question, "inverted?" it was me questioning the current use of them when it seems they are acheiving jack f*cking shit. To apply the term "inverted WINGERS" to our team is one giant joke as we don't actually HAVE any PROPER wingers. What's the use anyway? primarily to cut in and shoot? Are we doing that? No. not that i can see.

Shadydan · Sep 28, 2014

prawnsandwich said:
Didn't understand the sub today.

Well, Lennon was brought yesterday to combat the movement of Chambers who was starting to get the better of Eriksen.

mil1lion · Sep 28, 2014

Have you only just realised this? He's been playing on the left since pre-season

SpursManChris · Sep 28, 2014

whitesocks said:
the same reason Lamela plays on the right and chadli on the left.
Inverted wingers.
In fact our fullbacks were also inverted by the end.

Except Chadli is a sad excuse for a winger and I'm struggling to see what the inversion achieves. Are they cutting in and shooting? I don't think so. Why can't they be used to cross in balls with their dominant foot?

DaSpurs · Sep 28, 2014

SpursManChris said:
Except Chadli is a sad excuse for a winger and I'm struggling to see what the inversion achieves. Are they cutting in and shooting? I don't think so. Why can't they be used to cross in balls with their dominant foot?

The inversion is not the cause of the problem, it's that they've had no supply and space to work with because of the horizontal and meandering play of our midfield of the last two years. Hopefully Mason's inclusion will change this, but for now Poch's system, including the inverted wingers, are struggling to setup any sort of gameplan because they simply don't have the space available to learn from each other. I'd we can start getting the ball forward from deep more quickly and more efficiently, the ripple effect throughout team play will be massive.

As for Lennon though, I'm not sure anything will help. He just doesn't look even remotely interested in football anymore. This young team could very much use his experience, but he's just not contributing anything whatsoever, and it's a damn shame after what he's given us over the years.

Ledleys Knee · Sep 28, 2014

Last of a dying breed. Is he the only orthodox winger left in Europe now?

I wonder if he might end up at RB sooner rather than later?

Ledleys Knee · Sep 28, 2014

SpursManChris said:
Except Chadli is a sad excuse for a winger and I'm struggling to see what the inversion achieves. Are they cutting in and shooting? I don't think so. Why can't they be used to cross in balls with their dominant foot?

The logic is

1) Crosses are very easy to defend. They've not been effective since about the 90s

2) Since 4-5-1 (or variations of) became the dominant formation in the 00s, lone strikers became isolated if they are not supported by their wing/inside forwards

3) Therefore inverted wingers solves both these problems because wingers cut inside - retaining possession and creating goals through guile and the movement of their teammates. Both wide players also naturally end up closer to the CF, rather then hugging the touchline

Wingers have been coached to be inverted across football for a good 15 years now. Even at sunday league and kids football its everywhere.

Orthodox wingers have now gone the way of half-backs and sweepers - its an obsolete position

SpursManChris · Sep 28, 2014

DaSpurs said:
The inversion is not the cause of the problem, it's that they've had no supply and space to work with because of the horizontal and meandering play of our midfield of the last two years. Hopefully Mason's inclusion will change this, but for now Poch's system, including the inverted wingers, are struggling to setup any sort of gameplan because they simply don't have the space available to learn from each other. I'd we can start getting the ball forward from deep more quickly and more efficiently, the ripple effect throughout team play will be massive.

As for Lennon though, I'm not sure anything will help. He just doesn't look even remotely interested in football anymore. This young team could very much use his experience, but he's just not contributing anything whatsoever, and it's a damn shame after what he's given us over the years.

And the end result of a successful wing inversion? Cutting in and shooting? That's it?

chrissivad · Sep 28, 2014

SpursManChris said:
And the end result of a successful wing inversion? Cutting in and shooting? That's it?

Chadli sitting on 4 PL goals (only 2 other players have more) and Lamela on 3 assists (again only 2 other players have more)

neptunes · Sep 28, 2014

raf18 said:
I think you'll find full-backs with more attacking threat than him. He WAS a winger. For the past two seasons he's been picked for his ability to track back and defend. He offers nothing offensively. Maybe a bit of pace if you're lucky but he doesn't take anybody on anymore and never had end product anyway.

When he came on for Eriksen, it was the first time in a looooooooooooooong time I was happy to see him play. His pace and ability to track back was a good boost ahead of the tiring Eriksen at a time when we had the lead. Try bringing him on when we're losing? No thanks.

I would say that his original position has been compromised more often than not to suit the new playing style. Have we forgotten how good he was when playing in front of Kyle how the two combined or with Corluka? I was really pleased with him yesterday.

DaSpurs · Sep 28, 2014

SpursManChris said:
And the end result of a successful wing inversion? Cutting in and shooting? That's it?

No, that's only part of it. With the high press, there aren't as many counters so having the wingers in advanced positions to supply crosses at pace is not as useful since it's into a compact space with the defenders already facing out. The crosses ideally are provided by the wingbacks in these situations.

So in the high press, the inverted wide players provide further routes and angles of creativity as they're facing in upon receiving the ball. Gives more options for us and also "pops" the back line out so they aren't just defending against the crosses in the compact situations with the high press.

Ledleys Knee · Sep 28, 2014

SpursManChris said:
And the end result of a successful wing inversion? Cutting in and shooting? That's it?

Your front 4 all with 15+ goals.

Do you think we have two CFs who will score 30+ goals to compensate for not having inverted wingers?

SpursManChris · Sep 28, 2014

chrissivad said:
Chadli sitting on 4 PL goals

True, but weren't 2 of those goals scored as center forward/striker goals?

DaSpurs · Sep 28, 2014

@SpursManChris, might be worth your time having a look at this if you haven't already: http://eplindex.com/37849/marcelo-bielsas-tactical-influence-mauricio-pochettino-tactics.html

Not only does it explain Poch's tactics very well, but gives a better idea of why inverted wingers in the context. This setup, when running ideally, isn't even remotely anything traditional. Not only this, but the purposes/advantages of traditional wingers are very negated given the circumstances of the setup.

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