Poch Performance Review

mpickard2087 said:

That's not necessarily mutually exclusive. I'll just go on my own thoughts, but I believe managers should get two seasons before you start making decisions as to whether they should lose their job. So I think Poch should get a second season, and it will be 12 months before I'd want him gone, but that doesn't mean I cant criticise and with the evidence available to me so far be afraid to say where I think he needs to buck his ideas up and that if we don't get improvement in certain areas then he is digging his own grave.

As an example, I think Poch's tactical understanding of the game and nous when it comes to selecting teams (both shape + individual selections), changing things up in game, and patterns of play both in attack and particularly defence are absolutely woeful so far. I know a lot of fans don't put much stock in tactics, their eyes glaze over and they switch off when it comes to discussion about it, sticking to the belief that its the players on the pitch that get it done, but I feel its a facet of management that has quite a deal of importance. It's also something that you either understand and 'see', or you don't. If Poch is weak at it now, then I don't see him improving in this aspect.

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Where did I say you couldn't criticise? Criticism is a lot different from questioning his position as manager.

I just have a problem with any hypocrites who said in May "OK, now we have to give him time" and now contradict themselves.

Shadydan said:

Maybe some of those players don't want to be motivated, maybe some of those players are beyond repair, maybe some of those players refuse to buy into his philosophy.

Which is why people keep stressing you need to give the manager time, no point in sacking him just because he's not getting the best out of the team when ultimately you have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

Why do you think Levy wanted a young manager to stick around?
Why do you think Levy gave him a 5 year contract?
Why do you think that he's bought in Paul Mitchell?
What do you think we are trying to achieve by hiring a manager to bring through youngsters from the academy?

We have a plan in place which isn't going to happen overnight and we are nearly a year into that plan, sacking the manager is only going to set us back another year.

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I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, what I am basing my judgement on is what I see with my eyes and results and I honestly have not seen anything to say this man can make us win trophies. I believe the value of are squad in monetary value has gone down to me that is not a good thing. Tactically his subs and team selection over the season are questionable at the least.

C- for this season - but am trying really hard to not make a firm decision on him either way until the second half of next season, when he has had a pre-season to really work on his 'philosophy' and shape his squad. He very well may just need time - something which Spurs managers rarely (if ever) get.

Having said this there have been a couple disappointing traits the last couple of months - warning signs.

- Complete tactical inflexibility. Tbh none of us should be surprised at this - and we knew this about him coming from Southampton. What has disappointed me is that he has so often not started players that fit with what he is tactically trying to achieve. Townsend, Chadli...Chriches and Dier as fullbacks...he has not helped himself here.

- Team Selection. As said above - he found the right combo just after he new year - one bad first half against W.Ham and has completely abandoned it. So frustrating.

- His lack of bringing through youth players. Lets be honest - the only player he has brought through is Mason, and he is not even that young anymore. Sherwood was the one brave enough to bring through Bentaleb and Kane...hell he even tried out Zeki Fryers! The opportunity has been there the last month (especially last game) to bring through some more kids...to experiment a bit, but is playing stop-gap mediocre players instead.

There is also this myth that he brought through a lot of players at Southampton - this is simply not the case. Ward-Prowse, Shaw, Clyne, Lallana - they were all Adkins' work. The only player he brought through at Southampton was Chambers.

I completely acknowledge however that he may have plans to blood more youth next season, with a solid pre-season to integrate them with the first team, so have not come to a judgement - but the past 2 to 3 games have been decent opportunities to get some players like Onomah, Winks, Yedlin, Ogilvie, Velkjovic, Oduwa some experience.

Positives

- I thought Mason was done as a Spurs player. He deserves credit for bringing him through and although he has had a disappointing end to the season, so has the entire rest of the squad (Rose maybe an exception)

- The guy is clearly a very good striker coach. He moulded a brilliant role for Lambert at Southampton and has turned Kane into a very good number 9. Although with both - other managers can take the credit for taking a chance on them in the first place - Poch can take credit for the way he has coached them.

- Development of Danny Rose. Again - Poch can take some credit here. We all thought he was done at the end of last season, but he would be in our top 3 performers this season alongside Lloris and Kane, and probably our best performer post-New Year.

milli.com said:

I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, what I am basing my judgement on is what I see with my eyes and results and I honestly have not seen anything to say this man can make us win trophies. I believe the value of are squad in monetary value has gone down to me that is not a good thing. Tactically his subs and team selection over the season are questionable at the least.

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I'd say that getting to a final is evidence we can win trophies, but hey, what do I know....

milli.com said:

Question do you think Fergie would of got our current squad in a better position and manage us tactically better?

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I think Ferguson would have had to deal with exactly the same problem as Pochettino has - a squad with a bunch of soft players who aren't up to it. The big difference being he'd be given considerably more time before anyone moaned because he's got decades more experience and honours behind him.

THFCSPURS19 said:

Where did I say you couldn't criticise? Criticism is a lot different from questioning his position as manager.

I just have a problem with any hypocrites who said in May "OK, now we have to give him time" and now contradict themselves.

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By criticism I was going by my view on things... Even if he gets 'his' players, If this is 12 months down the line, we are still playing open 4-2-4 every single week, he's tactically rigid (and quite frankly rubbish)... Then I imagine we'll still be battling for 6th place and the ruthless **** that I am will want him gone because he doesn't match the highest of standards that I expect. So in a way I am questioning his position, even though I have said, and do think, he deserves a second season to improve.

THFCSPURS19 said:

I'd love to see if there's anyone on here who said he needs to be given time when he was appointed, but is now questioning his position.

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Oh there are, just like how some said they would give some of the 7 signings some extra time due to fuck up last season, but half a season in and those people given up.

THFCSPURS19 said:

I'd say that getting to a final is evidence we can win trophies, but hey, what do I know....

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When you play a team your equal or better on paper the manager makes a big difference, crossing the finish line is the hardest.

milli.com said:

I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, what I am basing my judgement on is what I see with my eyes and results and I honestly have not seen anything to say this man can make us win trophies. I believe the value of are squad in monetary value has gone down to me that is not a good thing. Tactically his subs and team selection over the season are questionable at the least.

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If you don't think he can make us win trophies then the question is who do you think can?

Shadydan said:

If you don't think he can make us win trophies then the question is who do you think can?

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Mourinho

Unfortunately, I think the guy is a bit of a fraud.

I'm not sold on his philosophy. Only works 1 game in 3, and the fact most of our wins have been last ditch goals says more about individual brilliance than coherence.

The man never has no plan B. I can only count about 2-3 times where his formation changes or subs have directly had an impact on proceedings.

Starting with 4 centre backs against Stoke when you are struggling to defend as it is, says it all.

And lets talk about that defence...... only QPR and Burnley have shipped more goals.

Not good enough. I won't shed a tear if he is sacked tomorrow.

Boring football, poor decision making, worst defence we've had since the 90s.

Hey,

I write stat articles these days and I put one up on aspects of our woes this morning.
Basically, we have a terrible record of creating shots in the box in relation to allowing the opposition to do the same.
Far too much of our shot profile resembles Villas Boas: ie: from range. Yet we don't have the constrictive control that characterised his first season, we let goals in for fun.

It is dismal, and so much work is needed in transfers, to an extent that it's hard not to see next year as transitional already. I was pretty pro-Poch but he's got a hole to dig himself out from now and he'll need to hit the ground running in 2015-16

Stats aren't the be all and end all but they sure do round out the story.

Anyway check it out:

http://statsbomb.com/2015/05/holes-in-tottenham-bloody-hull-and-dont-fear-the-numbers/

THFCSPURS19 said:

Where did I say you couldn't criticise? Criticism is a lot different from questioning his position as manager.

I just have a problem with any hypocrites who said in May "OK, now we have to give him time" and now contradict themselves.

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I haven't seen too many calling for him to be sacked, if that's what you mean as questioning his position, aside from the usual suspects. Although I'm surprised people still take their posts seriously.

Poch was never an overwhelming choice in the summer and the reaction was a bit meh imo. I've made a couple of posts questioning his performance this season, and I don't think it's up to scratch, and amongst the agrees and other posts I've seen, the general consensus is that people are disappointed but are willing to see what happens next season. I'm fairly sure the large majority are affording him some time and willing to see how he gets on with his players. I may be alone in this view but I'd have been happier if we'd had like 10 less points or so but played some encouraging football in more games but ultimately lost, kind of like the Liverpool game. Unfortunately we've had a string of poor performances and this isn't going to help him going into next season, at least with good football and poor results we could have seen there was some sort of progression.

Gbspurs said:

A ridiculous situation to be in but not Pochs fault Imo.

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So if it isn't Poch's fault for ostracizing a third of our squad, who's fault is it?

Was it not Poch who made Kaboul and Ade captain and vice respectively before deciding to fuck them off completely?

Was it not Poch who completely ignored our international players for the fest few weeks of the season?

Was it not Poch who persisted with players horrendously out of form (eg Townsend and Mason) but then as soon as a player shows a bit of form from the bench he fucks them off too (most recently Paulinho, but there's a long list)?

Was it not Poch who had the final say in summer transfers - both ins and outs - which has now left us with arguably a weaker squad than before?

By all means point to the future, but don't write this season off as transition or a 'free' season. Don't tell me none of this is his fault.

He simply doesn't deserve it.

It's been a shockingly boring season from start to finish with only the razzmatazz of a Cup Final to get us excited - and that was bloody dire too - and the goalscoring exploits of one of our own.

iluvsteffenfreund said:

An example that infuriated me... We play Newcastle away and win, paulinho gets man of the match and we play well. Next game he misses because of his wife giving birth and we draw with an average performance and a goal gifted to them by his replacement. Following game he's on the bench and his replacement(mason) has another shocker and is subbed. We lose the game. Following game he is still on bench and mason plays again and guess what has another shocker!!!! I mean WTF !!?? It's beyond clueless

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Add to that Paulinho's positive impression from the bench against City and then q week later he doesn't even make the bench...

Main Man said:

So if it isn't Poch's fault for ostracizing a third of our squad, who's fault is it?

Was it not Poch who made Kaboul and Ade captain and vice respectively before deciding to fuck them off completely?

Was it not Poch who completely ignored our international players for the fest few weeks of the season?

Was it not Poch who persisted with players horrendously out of form (eg Townsend and Mason) but then as soon as a player shows a bit of form from the bench he fucks them off too (most recently Paulinho, but there's a long list)?

Was it not Poch who had the final say in summer transfers - both ins and outs - which has now left us with arguably a weaker squad than before?

By all means point to the future, but don't write this season off as transition or a 'free' season. Don't tell me none of this is his fault.

He simply doesn't deserve it.

It's been a shockingly boring season from start to finish with only the razzmatazz of a Cup Final to get us excited - and that was bloody dire too - and the goalscoring exploits of one of our own.

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He hasn't ostracised a third of the squad. Criticise him, but don't make up bullshit.

THFCSPURS19 said:

He hasn't ostracised a third of the squad. Criticise him, but don't make up bullshit.

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Adebayor, Kaboul, Paulinho, Dembele, Chiriches, Lennon, Holtby, Stambouli and Capoue.

I think a third was a very fair assessment and certainly not bullshit.

Vorm reportedly could be added to that list, whilst Townsend is also reporedly very disillusioned and frustrated with being in out of teams/squads irrespective of performances. I think Townsend has actually voiced this himself too for us all to hear.

I may talk shit but I certainly don't make stuff up.

Main Man said:

So if it isn't Poch's fault for ostracizing a third of our squad, who's fault is it?

Was it not Poch who made Kaboul and Ade captain and vice respectively before deciding to fuck them off completely?

Was it not Poch who completely ignored our international players for the fest few weeks of the season?

Was it not Poch who persisted with players horrendously out of form (eg Townsend and Mason) but then as soon as a player shows a bit of form from the bench he fucks them off too (most recently Paulinho, but there's a long list)?

Was it not Poch who had the final say in summer transfers - both ins and outs - which has now left us with arguably a weaker squad than before?

By all means point to the future, but don't write this season off as transition or a 'free' season. Don't tell me none of this is his fault.

He simply doesn't deserve it.

It's been a shockingly boring season from start to finish with only the razzmatazz of a Cup Final to get us excited - and that was bloody dire too - and the goalscoring exploits of one of our own.

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The majority of the players you mentioned are a boil that need lancing. Someone had to do it, might as well be a Poch. Poch has asperations to play a dymanic, high tempo game. These players are clearly not interested in changing their ways to be a part of it so fuck em. I'm glad he hasn't given in to them.

Gbspurs said:

The majority of the players you mentioned are a boil that need lancing. Someone had to do it, might as well be a Poch. Poch has asperations to play a dymanic, high tempo game. These players are clearly not interested in changing their ways to be a part of it so fuck em. I'm glad he hasn't given in to them.

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He made them captain and vice captain though!!! How is that not giving in? Or should we be praising him for realising he had made a mistake?

Main Man said:

He made them captain and vice captain though!!! How is that not giving in? Or should we be praising him for realising he had made a mistake?

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Different players are motivated by different things. We know Ade is motivated by being seen as the main man (no pun intended) so if anything the fact that Poch has clearly tried to make these players a valued part of his squad proves that this is more down to the players being unwilling rather than Poch ostracising them?

He clearly offered them every opportunity to succeed and as a last resort has removed them from the squad. What's wrong with with that?