Man United Vs Tottenham: Match Thread

Gaz_Gammon · Dec 11, 2016

Wheeler Dealer said:
If you believe we lost because of Eriksen and Kane, then where does Dele Alli sit within your objective assessment!

I just cannot see a positive reason to play Eriksen and Dele together. Eriksen to me is way overrated, and when the going gets tough disappears wiithout trace.

dynamoSpurs · Dec 11, 2016

Gbspurs said:
<obligatory "that's the spirit" post>

Archibald&Crooks · Dec 11, 2016

faze_coys said:
Maybe the issue is you are lying to yourself, which is fine, every club needs rose tinted fans.

Dont normally need to use stats to form and opinion because I actually watch the game, but maybe this will help you.

View attachment 27434

Only 4 Shots on target, all from 25 yards+ (set plays) that didnt really trouble de gea. IMO we didnt look like scoring.

Have a good night and dont bum me

Thank you for the pretty picture with arrows on it. Wanayama missed as good a sitter as you're likely to see but to close this for the sake of everyone else's sanity i'll concede that he actually didn't and that it never happened

homer hotspur · Dec 11, 2016

Unless there is a shock in January and we actually bring in the 2 or 3 players we need, I think it is unrealistic to believe that we will make the top 4 or, probably ,5 this season. We have to learn to manage our expectations. You only had to look at the subs benches today to see what we are up against, even against Man Utd who are, currently, sitting below us. If you write down the attacking talent available to each of our 5 obvious rivals( ie strikers and attacking midfielders) and compare against ours it does rather bring it home. Unfortunately, even a few of the teams lower down have much better strilking options although this is offset by our better defensive players and the fact that Harry Kane is so good. Our transfer business this summer has proved to be pretty awful when it needed to be spot on to be able to maintain our position.

cliff jones · Dec 11, 2016

JUSTINSIGNAL said:
Lol

People can be concerned if they really want to waste their time looking for things that aren't there. But, for me, any issues we've had this season can be easily explained by lack of form or injuries to many of our key players. There isn't much more to it than that.

This is why I do not subscribe to any of these other theories. It's not burying my head in the sand if the reasons for previous bad performances are the obvious ones. I suggest alternative theories would be more valid if we had been able to field our strongest team for the majority of the season but had still been poor.

Today we weren't that bad. The whinging I am referring to is people who cannot seperate a performance from a result. The people who believe any loss means we were shit and just want to vent. It's not helpful or relevant on a forum that is meant for open discussion.

That was a great post imho till you kind of claimed the forum should be open to different views. You serially close off debate by saying either Levy or Poch are paid to make the calls so mere mortals mustn't grumble.

If we've played well and bagged six more points by the weekend then I'll still be with your assessment of the season to date. If we spend 25 mins of each half passing sideways and backwards showing insuffient ambition, tactical flexibility, movement leading to dropped points then this would demonstrate Poch isn't learning as quickly as we hoped he would.

JUSTINSIGNAL · Dec 11, 2016

Gaz_Gammon said:
He has brought in or git rid of three quarters of this squad and given half the starting eleven bigger longer contracts.

If we have a problem with personnel as you are suggesting then we are in deep shite. We have no number ten, and a 4-2-3-1 system with no penetration, width or final ball behind Kane.

In fact were it not for Rose or Walker we'd pretty much struggle to give anyone a game going forward.

It's been established that Dembele always takes a while to hit form after a injury lay off. And as it is he hasn't hit the heights of last season at all - when we didn't hear much about our slowness in transition. I actually believe Winks needs to be given more game time now and his skillset will do much to help us in that respect.

Eriksen is a number 10 but has been out of form. We have also missed the penetration that Lamela gives us. And it doesn't help that Alli has struggled for form this season as well - but tbf with such a young team we will have to expect players to have patchy form, it comes with the territory.

Bobbins · Dec 11, 2016

SpursDave88 said:
One positive was Sissoko's performance, for all the stick he has had, I thought he was excellent when he came on. We lost in the main because Eriksen and Kane were very poor. In fact I think Kane was the player most to blame. He offered almost nothing all match, could not hold the ball up and gave the ball away in the lead up to their goal. Other than that I thought we were ok.

I agree that Sissoko was a bright spot - Darmian was terrified of him, to the point that he retreated and Pogba came over to try and protect him.

I also agree that Kane and Eriksen were poor (Kane's touch had been left at Wembley, and Eriksen's set-pieces were even worse than usual, if that's possible).

However Alli was a major contributory factor in our utterly dire forward play. Constantly losing possession, constantly going to ground, constantly committing fouls. He was awful, again.

jimmy-jojo · Dec 11, 2016

Gaz_Gammon said:
But just where is the 60 odd million of improvement from the Summer splurge? I don't mind comparing season with season (depending on the fixtures) but we have not improved comparably to Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea.

Spending big money like we have, should put us more than a point up on last season surely?

Arsenal and Chelsea spent considerably more than us, though. Liverpool spent about the same but no doubt blew us out of the water in wages offered. Man City spent £100m more on players than us and Man Utd spent more on one player than we did on 3.

Maybe it's those team's that should be asking why they ain't comparably doing much better than us than they are doing? Liverpool just shipped 6 goals against the might of Bournemouth and West Ham...and for all the hype about how wonderful they are we are only 4 points behind them.

Gaz_Gammon · Dec 11, 2016

jimmy-jojo said:
Arsenal and Chelsea spent considerably more than us, though. Liverpool spent about the same but no doubt blew us out of the water in wages offered. Man City spent £100m more on players than us and Man Utd spent more on one player than we did on 3.

Maybe it's those team's that should be asking why they ain't comparably doing much better than us than they are doing? Liverpool just shipped 6 goals against the might of Bournemouth and West Ham...and for all the hype about how wonderful they are we are only 4 points behind them.

60 million is 60 million whether you spend it on one, three or ten players.

The club have blown every penny of that on mediocre signings, i'd have prefered one quality signing to drive the midfield or a genuine number ten.

shelfboy68 · Dec 11, 2016

Bobbins said:
I agree that Sissoko was a bright spot - Darmian was terrified of him, to the point that he retreated and Pogba came over to try and protect him.

I also agree that Kane and Eriksen were poor (Kane's touch had been left at Wembley, and Eriksen's set-pieces were even worse than usual, if that's possible).

However Alli was a major contributory factor in our utterly dire forward play. Constantly losing possession, constantly going to ground, constantly committing fouls. He was awful, again.

It's certainly looks as if Alli's ego has got a bit to big for itself a spell on the bench might temper that a bit.

LexingtonSpurs · Dec 11, 2016

SargeantMeatCurtains said:
Considering how well the teams around us are doing, a +1 points difference isn't good enough imo

Good enough for what? Are you ready to declare that we must win the league to have a successful season?

The issue is whether we had regressed - not whether we had improved as much as Chelsea - who have regressed to their recent mean, or Liverpool. We were 4 points behind Arsenal last year, and 3 behind City. So they have not really improved.

LexingtonSpurs · Dec 11, 2016

Hazardousman said:
Citing points as a reference for regression isn't really relevant, that's like saying because we went 10 unbeaten we were playing well.

It's the regression in our performances which I am referring to in comparison to how we played last season, the high press is gone, the attacking play is lackluster in comparison, the effort on part of the players isn't a noticeable and our mentality seems even more fragile than it was.

I think we have seen regressions in all these areas, despite what the table tells us.

Its more than points though, wasn't it? We are +13 goal-differential this year and last - and what better way to measure the quality of a club than the goals scored v. goals conceded? After all - at the end of the day points are all that matter, and the best correlation to points is goal differential.

The reality is - despite having massive injury and suspension issues - our play this season is not drastically different than last season - except in the subject view of some supporters. Sometimes you just see what you want to see, and forget what you want to forget.

lukespurs7 · Dec 11, 2016

homer hotspur said:
Unless there is a shock in January and we actually bring in the 2 or 3 players we need, I think it is unrealistic to believe that we will make the top 4 or, probably ,5 this season. We have to learn to manage our expectations. You only had to look at the subs benches today to see what we are up against, even against Man Utd who are, currently, sitting below us. If you write down the attacking talent available to each of our 5 obvious rivals( ie strikers and attacking midfielders) and compare against ours it does rather bring it home. Unfortunately, even a few of the teams lower down have much better strilking options although this is offset by our better defensive players and the fact that Harry Kane is so good. Our transfer business this summer has proved to be pretty awful when it needed to be spot on to be able to maintain our position.

Absolutely this!!

Also as many people stated, we needed to improve our first XI especially in an attacking sense and didn't. Man.U and all the teams above us have 2 things we don't:
1) A more ambitious set-up and play from an attacking sense
2) Gamechanging attacking players.
Chelsea: Hazard,Pedro,Costa,Willian
Arsenal: Walcott, Sanchez, Ozil,
Man.C: Aguero, De Bruyne, Sterling, Silva, Toure
Liverpool: Mane,Firminiho, Coutiniho, Sturridge
Us: Kane and on occasions Alli,Son and Eriksen but I'm sorry none of them are in the same league as any of the above.

We spent £47million on a new striker and attacking midfielder and swapped another attacking midfielder for another one.(Jansen,Sissoko,Nkoudou) None of these players have looked anywhere near the quality which we need to help us change games, if they did then our bench would look pretty good but as it is, comparing them to say Rashford,Rooney and Mata shows how really we have the 6th best squad.

This combined with the fact Potch has us playing a very conservative predictable style of play means when we don't press well and other teams work out how to play against us, we literally have no answer.

Potch and our recruitment are equally to blame. Todays game and others this season have reinforced where we are at. It's a little depressing after the dizzy heights of last season but it's reality. This is why I want us to take the cup comps seriously as until we get the new stadium and/or some better players I think 5/6th is about our level and I want us to go all out to try and win something and the league will not be what we win.

COYS.

SargeantMeatCurtains · Dec 11, 2016

LexingtonSpurs said:
Good enough for what? Are you ready to declare that we must win the league to have a successful season?

The issue is whether we had regressed - not whether we had improved as much as Chelsea - who have regressed to their recent mean, or Liverpool. We were 4 points behind Arsenal last year, and 3 behind City. So they have not really improved.

Not at all, but

LexingtonSpurs said:
Its more than points though, wasn't it? We are +13 goal-differential this year and last - and what better way to measure the quality of a club than the goals scored v. goals conceded? After all - at the end of the day points are all that matter, and the best correlation to points is goal differential.

The reality is - despite having massive injury and suspension issues - our play this season is not drastically different than last season - except in the subject view of some supporters. Sometimes you just see what you want to see, and forget what you want to forget.

i don't think goal difference really tells us much at all. We put 5 past swansea last week. That nearly doubled our GD.

LexingtonSpurs · Dec 11, 2016

SargeantMeatCurtains said:
Not at all, but

i don't think goal difference really tells us much at all. We put 5 past swansea last week. That nearly doubled our GD.

I will concede that if you take away all of our goals. The goal differential will look pretty bad.

ETA - of course, if you take away the 5-1 win against Bournemouth and the 4-1 win against West Ham last year - the goal differential would also look bad.

Phomesy · Dec 11, 2016

SpursDave88 said:
One positive was Sissoko's performance, for all the stick he has had, I thought he was excellent when he came on. We lost in the main because Eriksen and Kane were very poor. In fact I think Kane was the player most to blame. He offered almost nothing all match, could not hold the ball up and gave the ball away in the lead up to their goal. Other than that I thought we were ok.

I agree with most of that but not sure Eriksen was "poor" so much as he never saw enough of the ball - ie: there was not the proper link from midfield to front 4 - to have the influence we needed.

Unlike, say, Alli who continually turned the ball over, or Kane who was well beaten in every contest.

Our front four were ineffectual - probably a result of how Mou set united up. It wasn't a "bad" performance - just not an incisive or commanding one.

Sweetsman · Dec 11, 2016

cliff jones said:
That was a great post imho till you kind of claimed the forum should be open to different views. You serially close off debate by saying either Levy or Poch are paid to make the calls so mere mortals mustn't grumble.

If we've played well and bagged six more points by the weekend then I'll still be with your assessment of the season to date. If we spend 25 mins of each half passing sideways and backwards showing insuffient ambition, tactical flexibility, movement leading to dropped points then this would demonstrate Poch isn't learning as quickly as we hoped he would.

And you are in what position of authority or knowledge to assess how quickly Poch should be learning? What yardstick are you using? United, Arsenal and City took how long to progress beyond the early parts of the Champions League? It's not about closing off debate, but don't expect your own opinions to go unchallenged.

Shadydan · Dec 11, 2016

Phomesy said:
I agree with most of that but not sure Eriksen was "poor" so much as he never saw enough of the ball - ie: there was not the proper link from midfield to front 4 - to have the influence we needed.

Unlike, say, Alli who continually turned the ball over, or Kane who was well beaten in every contest.

Our front four were ineffectual - probably a result of how Mou set united up. It wasn't a "bad" performance - just not an incisive or commanding one.

Agree with this, Utd set up pretty well but it was still a disappointing performance, I would like Winks to come in and play alongside Dier or Wanyama, I think it's time we had him in the side in order to move the ball quicker.

Dov67 · Dec 11, 2016

haven't seen the highlights or heard any of the punditry or read this thread. My impression from the game is that we are simply not clinical enough. Other top teams when they play us, only seem to need one chance, and they score.

We on the other hand have to play them off the park for the bulk of the game in order to score and remain in front, as today demonstrated, same against chelsea.

someone said it above - look at the game changing subs we don't have!

BTW - I hope people can find it in their hearts to give Sissoko a bit of credit today - he was the only bit of penetration we had today. Direct, not particularly graceful, but lets give him a break - much better.

millsey · Dec 11, 2016

Will we ever lose a game and it not be full of meltdowns? Not making top 5, worst transfer window ever, poch clueless, drop Alli and Dembele. It all comes so boring.

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