The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 8th July 2017

BringBack_leGin · Jul 8, 2017

King of Otters said:
Whether or not any of our rival's summer signings would make our first team (your conclusions are all highly debatable btw) is entirely beside the point.

Liverpool, Utd, Arsenal, City have all improved their first xi, and Cheslea surely will soon enough.

Meanwhile, we stand still. And anyone who thinks that a club which won the square root of fuck all last season, and crashed out of the CL in the group stages, can't possibly improve on their first xi needs to have a word with themselves.

1) apart from Bernardo Silva, who have our rIvan's signed who could be considered better than their equivalent in our first xi? Or would you sign them to sit on our bench?

2) if our team, youngest average age in the league, improved last year from 2015/2016 (and the amount of club records achieved suggests they did) with only Wanyama breaking into the first xi, why is it inconceivable that they'd improve again in the same circumstances? Have Kane, Alli, Eriksen, Dier, Son all plateaued now? Can they learn no more?

3) last seasons players go into this season with the experience of failing in the champions league, is that not something both they and the manager could learn from? Do you not improve at your job and make few mistake as you gain experience?

Right, at the restaurant now, back for round two later

Led's Zeppelin · Jul 8, 2017

BringBack_leGin said:
Yes, I do.

Fwiw I was fine with everything else you were saying in other posts, just wanted to address the assertion that a binding multi million pound contract could exist without a signed paper trail.

Thanks, I'm glad we agree.

Because I absolutely wasn't saying that complex multi-million deals can be agreed verbally. In fact that was my point: I was drawing the important distinction between simple and complex transactions.

The fact is the process of negotiation of the contract is an essential and integral part of the overall transaction. Hardly anyone ever agrees all the critical terms and conditions of a complex deal at the outset and on the shake of a hand. It is virtually impossible nowadays. And the final price will frequently reflect the to-ing and fro-ing that occurs during these negotiations, so will often be different from the first figure mentioned, even though it will have a relationship to it varied by the other terms.

So does Levy negotiate hard? Obviously yes he does.

Too hard? Matter of opinion.

Does he act unethically or illegally? No, almost certainly not in my opinion.

PolishYid4ever · Jul 8, 2017

SDogg said:
Chelsea are in the process of signing 3 new players, there is always room for improvement, in this league you cannot afford to standstill

How do you know they are 'in process'? Conte told you? Or you just reading the dodgy press info?

Wellspurs · Jul 8, 2017

Everton will be loaded with Lukaku cash and hopefully still interested in Sissoko?

we_all_loved_freund · Jul 8, 2017

BBLG makes some relevant points. However, it is not about improving our first 11 as next season won't be about our first 11, it will be about our squad. The other teams (save for Chelsea) have improved their first 11, but in doing so they have also improved their squad.

We need to improve our squad as a whole with players that I'll genuinely compete for a first 11 place. At the moment, we would only probably make changes to the first 11 if a player was unavailable. Such a position is evidence that our squad is just not strong enough.

SDogg · Jul 8, 2017

PolishYid4ever said:
How do you know they are 'in process'? Conte told you? Or you just reading the dodgy press info?

It's not dodgy press info is it? It is widely known they are in for Alex Sandro, bakayoko and rudiger has had a medical, you got your head in the clouds?

ButchCassidy · Jul 8, 2017

SDogg said:
It's not dodgy press info is it? It is widely known they are in for Alex Sandro, bakayoko and rudiger has had a medical, you got your head in the clouds?

48 hours ago they were "widely known" to be about to sign Lukaku and United weren't close to signing anyone... What we hear is about 15% of whats actually going on and usually about 2 weeks late.

cliff jones · Jul 8, 2017

Two pressure points, Janssen has been done to death but we won't be winning pots with him leading the line.

Rcb is the other problem, where Dier has no competition. With Poch reluctant to play Wimmer and shuffle the Belgians across.
We saw ccv has miles to go based on Wycombe. This Foyth chap sounds good, and Veltman could also work.

Coming back to VJ, I hope we can switch him out and get King in, since King is also very effective as a wide forward. Maybe shift some fringe off on Eddie Howe to sweeten the deal.

I don't think we will do a Leeds by bolstering the squad in this way or even risk the stadium project. Just get em in for Pochs preseason, and on the tour.

Real world will see haggling instead, late player movement, and a lack of fitness and assimilation.

I'd take Barkley too for less than 25m since I think he can take over the Dembele role in due course. If he flops we'd still get our money back. A Levy deal if ever we saw one...

lukadownthelane · Jul 8, 2017

The only way we have a big enough squad to challenge for the league and have a good run in the UCL is if CCV, Onomah, Edwards, GKN and Janssen all start reaching their potential next season. Otherwise we need reenforcements, even if they are just good premier league players who can contribute to rotating the squad.

we_all_loved_freund said:
BBLG makes some relevant points. However, it is not about improving our first 11 as next season won't be about our first 11, it will be about our squad. The other teams (save for Chelsea) have improved their first 11, but in doing so they have also improved their squad.

We need to improve our squad as a whole with players that I'll genuinely compete for a first 11 place. At the moment, we would only probably make changes to the first 11 if a player was unavailable. Such a position is evidence that our squad is just not strong enough.

Ghost Hardware · Jul 8, 2017

Vinny_Sammways_left_peg said:
I would say yes. Unless it's one of those leftfield types, but I would doubt it at the moment.

Worth noting also Sassulo is in northan Italy so could also be Berardi who we have been linked to in the past.

ButchCassidy · Jul 8, 2017

coys200 said:
It's naive to say you couldn't improve the 1st xi.If it was perfect we'd have won the league and CL.When we bought wanyama everybody questioned it .But imo he was an upgrade on dier as a DM.I would say apart from Kane and Toby every player in our 1st xi could be upgraded but it would cost an absolute fortune.To buy a player to walk straight into our team you're prob talking £40m minimum and the Its probably a borderline improvement and many would argue he's not actually better than what we've got.But if you wanted to try then for me in a 343 the most obvious is dier .
Then I would say dembele .Theres no player in EPL I could obviously replace him with so you're talkin the best in Europe and I mean best to better than dembele.And then eriksen/son again in EPL the only obvious clear upgrade I'd say would be hazard possibly Sanchez but that's how hard it is .To upgrade 1st xi from here you're talkin the very best.
All our opponents id say have clear arrears they can upgrade so it's much easier.

Alli improved our starting XI and cost 5m. It's never really about how much you spend, as much as United fans would have you believe. Our rivals will spend 100-200m this window, and at least one if not two or three of them will get worse than they were last season.

TURKISH69 · Jul 8, 2017

BringBack_leGin said:
1) apart from Bernardo Silva, who have our rIvan's signed who could be considered better than their equivalent in our first xi? Or would you sign them to sit on our bench?

2) if our team, youngest average age in the league, improved last year from 2015/2016 (and the amount of club records achieved suggests they did) with only Wanyama breaking into the first xi, why is it inconceivable that they'd improve again in the same circumstances? Have Kane, Alli, Eriksen, Dier, Son all plateaued now? Can they learn no more?

3) last seasons players go into this season with the experience of failing in the champions league, is that not something both they and the manager could learn from? Do you not improve at your job and make few mistake as you gain experience?

Right, at the restaurant now, back for round two later

So if that's the case my old China how is it the champions of Europe in fact most champions of each league in Europe strengthen there sides after being successful? Please explain or am I missing something.

TURKISH69 · Jul 8, 2017

BringBack_leGin said:
So much painc about transfers.

I for one am delighted that Utd have bought a striker for £75m who wouldn't make our first xi and a centre back for £30m who wouldn't make our first xi.

I'm also delighted to see Arsenal breaking their transfer record for a striker who wouldn't make our our first xi, or if he would have to be unnaturally shunted into a wide position.

It's great to see Liverpool spending £35m on a winger who wouldn't make our first xi and who in fact has already failed in this league.

Only Bernardo Silva signing for City is a player who would threaten our first xi, but it's not as if attack is where they needed to improve anyway and regardless, we can't exactly complain about Ali, Eriksen and Son's output.

Guess which club has been as quiet as us... Chelsea! The club who were our biggest rivals last season. They've only signed Caballero for free to back up Courtois.

It's very hard to improve when you have little room to do so, especially without being financially doped. Of course we could improve on certain first teamers but only by spending ludicrous amounts for genuinely fractional improvements which would be far from guaranteed anyway.

If you take our generally accepted first choice 343, the players on the fringes are Vorm, Trippier, Davies, CCV, Wimmer, Winks, Onomah, Son, Lamela, Sissoko, Janssen. Only place we're obviously light is an alternative strong DM, but that's where Dier's versatility comes in anyway. To upgrade on any of these, even the full backs, we would probably have to approach our transfer record... how on earth do you do that for someone not as good as you already have in the first team?

For me, a loner term deals for Toby and Son, trimming some deadwood and progressing Winks, Onomah, KWP and Edwards is key, if we can do that then I'd accept no new signings. It may not be the most exciting approach but we managed to assemble a world class team all over before transfer prices went totally mental, the ability not to be held to randsom for even mediocre players is our reward.

A few wonderful anomalies aside, 99% of the Spurs players I grew up watching would not get near our best 25 now, never mind bench or first team. And it's great seeing our rivals throw crazy money at players who will never be as good as the lads alredy wearing our shirt!

To say Lukaku wouldn't get in our first Xl is utter bollocks my friend. If Janssen has played then I'm afraid Lukaku would of been an awesome addition. You must be related to our chairman, because what you have just stated would leave us behind and unable to challenge on both fronts due to lack of strength in depth.

Shadydan · Jul 8, 2017

Wellspurs said:
Everton will be loaded with Lukaku cash and hopefully still interested in Sissoko?

They're spending it now.

Shadydan · Jul 8, 2017

TURKISH69 said:
To say Lukaku wouldn't get in our first Xl is utter bollocks my friend. If Janssen has played then I'm afraid Lukaku would of been an awesome addition. You must be related to our chairman, because what you have just stated would leave us behind and unable to challenge on both fronts due to lack of strength in depth.

Lukaku is a striker, he isn't better than Kane therefore he wouldn't get in our first eleven, it's as simple as that.

taidgh · Jul 8, 2017

ButchCassidy said:
Alli improved our starting XI and cost 5m. It's never really about how much you spend, as much as United fans would have you believe. Our rivals will spend 100-200m this window, and at least one if not two or three of them will get worse than they were last season.

If only it was always that easy. The reason you pay big money is for proven quality. Of course it doesn't always work out perfectly, but usually, big money gets you better players.

ryantegan · Jul 8, 2017

We haven't won anything so we NEED to improve the squad. Poch and Levy will know that too

I'm not panicking yet

TURKISH69 · Jul 8, 2017

Shadydan said:
Lukaku is a striker, he isn't better than Kane therefore he wouldn't get in our first eleven, it's as simple as that.

Have you watched football or are you still wearing nappies stop talking complete bollocks. I'm not saying he's better than Kane but when your challenging for multiple comps Lukaku would get in our first XI so rotating with Kane. Please unless your going to say something constructive please fucking do one and wipe your arse. Fuck my old boots

TURKISH69 · Jul 8, 2017

TURKISH69 said:
Have you watched football or are you still wearing nappies stop talking complete bollocks. I'm not saying he's better than Kane but when your challenging for multiple comps Lukaku would get in our first XI so rotating with Kane. Please unless your going to say something constructive please fucking do one and wipe your arse. Fuck my old boots

And by all the negative feed back I'm getting I must assume the LEVY BRIGADE are on tonight (peace)

Gb160 · Jul 8, 2017

TURKISH69 said:
Have you watched football or are you still wearing nappies stop talking complete bollocks. I'm not saying he's better than Kane but when your challenging for multiple comps Lukaku would get in our first XI so rotating with Kane. Please unless your going to say something constructive please fucking do one and wipe your arse. Fuck my old boots

You think Lukaku would come to spend 85% of games sitting on the bench?
Bloody hell.

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Well done boys. Good process

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