The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Bus-Conductor said:

Again, I think this is one of football's hackneyed fallacies. Can't think of too many careers that have been ruined by a badly timed introduction. For every one of those there must be about 300 whose careers have been ruined by not being given proper chances.

Either PL coaches are not very good judges of what denotes ready or European kids are much better players. Evidence suggests the former, and domestic teams from France, Spain and Germany and their international teams would seem to support that.

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Until recently final league position didn't really matter that much if you weren't in relegation or european places as there was no difference in prize money for many leagues across europe. This means for many teams the last few games of the season are meaningless so they can blood youngsters. Many clubs also have b teams in lower divisions where their young playerscan play competitive matches in the same system as their parent club making the step up much less daunting.
Also many clubs can't afford to buy players and have no choice but to blood their youngsters.

beats1 said:

Onomah is a player who has constantly being played out of position in his senior games, so its harsh to say he hasnt looked good whilst overlooking that fact

Our players in the academy are some of the most talented players we have had but they found opportunities harder than the class you mentioned. You mention Harry Kane is our only success but you overlooking Rose. If Sherwood never brings back Rose and forces him on Harry, Rose wouldn't be here today and wouldn't be the best LB in the PL. His career at best would have gone like berchiche, who left us for the third tier of the spanish league before now playing for PSG.

The same goes for Kane, it was said that Levy wanted Sherwood to play Soldado over Kane at the end of his 6 months as Soldado was a £26m player whom we wanted to come good or at least get some money back on. Now if hadn't he had a run in the team people would say he is a player who struggled in the championship and who has struggled with the first team every senior appearance. The same is true of onomah, has been sent out to give Sissoko another chance?

The funny thing is, the people who are criticising CCV were the same people who said Veljkovic isn't good enough and that CCV is better after the U20 WC. If you keep supporting the next big thing and the switch to the new next thing, just as that player gets to the stage when they are about to step up, no one will make it.

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This is nitpicking, but didn't Rose come here as a 17-18 year old? We have had good success with buying players between 17-20 (Walker, Dier, Alli and Rose), but I think about the younger players that enter our academy at a younger age mainly

Bus-Conductor said:

See, this gets said a lot on here and in the media, but it's a bit of a fallacy IMO. There isn't a single player who is still here and/or established in our first team that has been promoted by Poch. That's not to say it can't happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

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This is sort of true but two seasons ago we were the youngest squad in the league by a distance, last year was about ironing out some of the mental issues we found the year before...

This season, we've no idea yet although yeah I'd hope with the more experienced Kane, Alli, Dier and co we've now got room to be blooding a few youngsters again as well as Winks (who was established around our first team by Poch).

I'm as surprised by anyone about Onomah, as I felt this was his 'Winks' year but hopefully there's method to the decision. It certainly doesn't seem like we're writing him off, so time will tell.

panoma said:

This is nitpicking, but didn't Rose come here as a 17-18 year old? We have had good success with buying players around that age (Walker, Dier, Alli and Rose), but I think about the younger players that enter our academy at a younger age mainly

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This is what I dont get, people count Bentaleb as our academy player but not Rose

Rose went into our U18's and then suffered a terrible knee injury and then lost a season. Just because we signed him at 17 doesnt mean he didn't come through our Academy

David Beckham is considered a Man Utd academy graduate yet he was signed from us at the age of 16, is he then a spurs graduate?

Also Walker, Dier and Alli were professional footballers who all played professional football. They were also 2-3 years older when they signed and they went into the first team

panoma said:

Is it possible that most our youth players simply aren't good enough?

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Most of our youth players won't ultimately be good enough to play at the level we are at now, most we are already pretty sure won't and say so.

It is also entirely possible that even the two or three we believe have the ability to play at the highest level still might not be ultimately good enough due to their mental make up etc. We all, to a man I think, acknowledge that, but what some of us would like to see is them get, at the very least, the same chances (albeit scant) as people like Njie, Wimmer, Nkoudou, Sissoko etc. IE most of those players, for the same varying reasons, won't be good enough to play at this level, but we buy them and play them in their proper position occasionally.

panoma said:

CCV and Onomah for instance have never looked particularly good in any of their senior games, while Edwards looked good against both Valerenga last pre season and against Gillingham in the cup. Winks might be good enough, but he could also end up like Mason (very unlucky timing on the injury for Winks). The one great success is Kane is recent years.

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Onomah hasn't looked good because he's not a RW. (Although to be fair, he's looked perfectly decent in at least one or two of the games he's played in the cups out of position - which should tell us something) If he'd been played as a CM several times and still didn't look good then we could start to judge him more fairly as succeeding or failing to take a chance.

CCV I tend to agree, but again, it's hard to judge when a kid's only started 3/4 times. And one of those he was fine. But this is where opinions of our kids is exactly the same as senior players, they will differ, some of us will see more in some than others. I don't particularly see outstanding potential in CCV and never really have. I never really rated Caulker much.

panoma said:

If we look at other youth products like Caulker, Pritchard, Mason, Carroll, Bentaleb, Livermore, Bostock, Stewart and many more they have all gone on to have fine careers, but none would improve our current side.

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I would happily have had Bentaleb next to Wanyama ahead of Dier (every time) and Dembele (some times). I think we were crying out for a more progressive CM type on many occasions last season to partner the more aggressive Wanyama. And I would definitely have rather had Pritchard in our squad instead of any of Njie, Nkoudou or Sissoko.
But we also lost Veljkovic because of the way he was treated, (who ended up playing well for Bremen last year as the climbed up the table) and I think he could have been a valuable squad player who could have covered CB and DM positions.

THFCSPURS19 said:

The guy started our most important CL match (away to Monaco which we had to win). Furthermore, he was always trusted to come on at the end of big games.

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That's lovely, but 3 starts in 38 league games tells the most important story, we all know what Poch thinks of European competition.

As I said, it might happen, or it might not happen and not be Poc's fault, but I firmly believe there were games where Winks would have been a better, more complimentary, choice than what Poch actually picked.

And as you know, I think there were some great chances to give Onomah minutes as a CM, but for some reason, 4-0 up with 30 minutes to go, or whole friendlies, Poch didn't seem to see the sense in it. I really don't understand that. At the very least, if Onomah had stunk the joint out at least he'd know, he'd have learnt something.

Blake Griffin said:

which then goes back to the point of are spurs really the best club for young players to be at? naturally clubs at the lower end of the tree are going to be giving more chances to these players than those at the top so maybe we need to look more towards loans or forming relationships with other clubs/managers to help in this regard. i'm sure liverpool have ambitions of challenging for a top 4 place(and higher) but klopp seems to have no issue in giving his young rb the chance to establish himself in the absence of the more senior option for example but it seems we're not confident of doing the same.

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I think it's not as simple as that, our accademy produces good footballers and they tend to go on and have a good caree, butwe go for more technical players so physically they are not ready and take longer to mature, the premier league is full of big men, if you don't have a tonne of pace or size it's hard to make as a young kid. I think knowing when to move on is key and to be fair we seem good at getting players careers in football.

I am still a bit bemused as to why Georgiou was out there yesterday rather than Edwards.

Bus-Conductor said:

Onomah, KWP or both ?

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Didn't Poch say at the start of the season KWP, Onomah and CCV will be really involved this season, now a month on one is loaned out and the other isn't deemed good enough to play RB even after all the injuries. It as usual just sounds like all talk, Poch wants to give player 5 minutes at the end of the match to look bold but when push comes to shove struggles to give real chances. Hope I'm wrong re: KWP but again after being talked up and winning u20 World Cup and beig under Poch's tutelage why is he not ready. Surely academy pathways should be down to planing and not luck. I reckon Sissoko and DIer will need to be injured before KWP starts.

Not believing everything Poch says doesn't go down well here, and it's why I never believe the, if you prove yourself in training you will get a chance, I don't get care about reputations. It's just a ready made excuse used for when whatever player ends up missing out, despite being coached by him for 2 years.

That or people question the quality of the players. The same players schooling their international contemporaries up until 21. It's all ready made excuses. You can bet though that when one of the foreign players gets a chance in their league English football fans will be all over them.

Personally Onomah loan is annoying, hopefully Poch letting him go on loan isn't a bad thing, but he needs games. Feels like a wasted year though as he could have done that last year, feels like so little planning. Let's just hope Onomah asking to go on loan doesn't affect his relationship, I know Winks kept hassling Poch too and was refused but hasn't seemed to affected them.

THFCSPURS19 said:

The guy started our most important CL match (away to Monaco which we had to win). Furthermore, he was always trusted to come on at the end of big games.

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I actually agree, that Poch seems to be starting to shows glimpses of actually bring an academy player through in Winks, but regardless of what game he started (Bertrand started CL final) starting 3 PL matches is hardly a first team player.

If we were linked to a player who had only made 3 league starts, I'm sure you wouldn't describe him as an established player, you'd most likely call him a youth player or say he's a signing that would go into our development squad, as you did with Vincent Marcel who had only made 4 league starts last season.

Cornpattbuck said:

This is sort of true but two seasons ago we were the youngest squad in the league by a distance, last year was about ironing out some of the mental issues we found the year before...

This season, we've no idea yet although yeah I'd hope with the more experienced Kane, Alli, Dier and co we've now got room to be blooding a few youngsters again as well as Winks (who was established around our first team by Poch).

I'm as surprised by anyone about Onomah, as I felt this was his 'Winks' year but hopefully there's method to the decision. It certainly doesn't seem like we're writing him off, so time will tell.

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Its fair to say our squad was the youngest but that shouldnt be an excuse either, if there is room for a player to be included their age shouldnt be a factor

Also this young squad thing overlooks some factors
Our squad was young but it was very experienced, the only inexpereinced players were Dier and Bentaleb. Players like Alli, Townsend and etc had over 100 games under their belt despite their young age

The reason why it was so young were because the experienced had let the club down, werent good enough and/or werent down with Poch, like Adebayor, Kaboul, Lennon, Soldado, Capoue and etc.

Also no one was suggesting throw loads of kids in the squad but instead they could be used as role players and werent a total waste like N'Jie, Yedlin, Stambouli, Nkoudou(who might turn out to be good) and etc. The sad thing is that players like N'Jie and Nkoudou, were two players who both by french standards started their league careers late and we signed them straight after their first full season of football(2 in the case of Nkoudou)


Also the club imo has done pretty shit with this whole RB situation and shows there is no clear plan in regards to it. In the last 3 seasons we have had; Walker, Trippier, Yedlin, Fredericks, KWP and Walkes. The first 3 are established in the PL, whilst fredericks is established as a very good RB in the championship who would have PL experience had he not felt let down by boro when they tried to sign him a season ago. Then in KWP we have our best youth player we have had since Carr in that position and yet we are still looking to sign another one

According to David Gold West Ham beat us yesterday 3-2. Seeing as we were playing Juventus I imagine it was a team filled with a lot of our u23s. And considering we have some of those on our bench against Juventus, sounds like a very decent result

Bus-Conductor said:

I am still a bit bemused as to why Georgiou was out there yesterday rather than Edwards.

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Because Edwards can't play left wing back?!

@Bus-Conductor - I think the biggest flaw in your analysis is that players have to get minutes to "get the same chances" as others.

I have now seen a Poch training session - and I can report it is very intense, there is no room to hide, and everyone in the session has an opportunity to "show their quality", as Poch might say. The training session was, in fact, more intense than the match the next day.

Players such as CCV, KWP, Onomah, and all the other youth products have a tremendous opportunity to earn match time. That training, every day, is more significant than a few random minutes at the end of games. I can assure you that the situations are similar to match situations - these are not simply football drills. Players are constantly evaluated against each other.

We, the public, generally do not get a chance to evaluate their progress, but we are not charged with making those decisions, nor will we be sacked if we get those decisions wrong. But, I have no doubt that all players in the squad, regardless of pedigree, are given the same opportunities to play.

Blake Griffin said:

would either make your top 10, @IGSpur?

amos i think will have a better career than miller but it doesn't look like he'll be making their list, unless they leave out eyoma.

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I think in terms of being able to offer something different and output and therefore potential I think Roles would. Miller would have been but isn't this list for potential first teamers and if so the way Miller#s development has stunted and also the fact being on loan isn't a good sign, I wouldn't include him in the top 10. I prefer him to Amos in terms of actual ability though. Amos' job is to do simple things well and I think a lot of people can do that

thebenjamin said:

Apparently Josh has been begging Poch to let him go on loan for some time.

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Bus-Conductor said:

And as you know, I think there were some great chances to give Onomah minutes as a CM, but for some reason, 4-0 up with 30 minutes to go, or whole friendlies, Poch didn't seem to see the sense in it. I really don't understand that. At the very least, if Onomah had stuck the joint out at least he'd know, he'd have learnt something.

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I don't get this either ,pre-Poch or even at other clubs they will use that as an opp to give youth a chance. Heck before Poch, fans on here would ask to see young players come on if we're handing out a thrashing, but since Poch doesn't believe it's correct, everyone is against it.

Got be honest, the Onomah loan seems very reminiscent of the Pritchard situation to me. A player who has been loaned out at a time when are actually deficient in his position and who could have - and is ready - to play a good squad role if nothing else. Similar circumstances, sounds like the player has probably got very frustrated at not being played, or being played where he should be and has moaned about it, and has been sent packing.

Cornpattbuck said:

Because Edwards can't play left wing back?!

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Georgiou didn't play LWB, Davies did. We played 4231 and he played ALM. If he needed Georgiou as LB back up then have Edwards as well on the bench and bring him on as an AM.

Clark28 said:

Since he joined Poch has been applauded for his handling of young talent, this summer people have been saying Sessegnon and Sancho should come here, and that Edwards would be mad to leave, because Poch is magic.

24 hours later and all of a sudden Spurs isn't the place to be for young players?

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Everyone knows Poch is great at developing young players and reckon he would do a great job on Sessegnon more than Sancho. And of course people are going to want top young players come here regardless of who the manager is anyway.

The bit about Edwards isn't true. People want Edwards to stay as he is quality. The whole of the PL suck at bringing academy players through, again it's best he stays as if he comes through anywhere we are going to want ti to be with us. Poch may be the lesser of the other evils so his chances may be marginally better than if he was at Stoke for example

dondo said:

How pathetic, one preseason poor game from dier and it's "god forbids"he plays now

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Seems to have forgotten he was excellent alongside Dembele in the 15/16 season, one of our best performers in fact, and that he slotted in seamlessly when played in midfield last season. It's almost as if he wants someone to slate so has intentionally ignored dozens of good performances over the last few seasons in favour of a handful of perceived indiscretions and re-imagined Dier as some kind of Gary Doherty clone.

Bus-Conductor said:

I am still a bit bemused as to why Georgiou was out there yesterday rather than Edwards.

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your mate was right about the 21 day break(though it's not some kind of rule or anything), which by my reckoning ends today, so should be back in training this week.