The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

[THFCSPURS19]

Didn't Poch say at the start of the season KWP, Onomah and CCV will be really involved this season, now a month on one is loaned out and the other isn't deemed good enough to play RB even after all the injuries. It as usual just sounds like all talk, Poch wants to give player 5 minutes at the end of the match to look bold but when push comes to shove struggles to give real chances. Hope I'm wrong re: KWP but again after being talked up and winning u20 World Cup and beig under Poch's tutelage why is he not ready. Surely academy pathways should be down to planing and not luck. I reckon Sissoko and DIer will need to be injured before KWP starts.

Not believing everything Poch says doesn't go down well here, and it's why I never believe the, if you prove yourself in training you will get a chance, I don't get care about reputations. It's just a ready made excuse used for when whatever player ends up missing out, despite being coached by him for 2 years.

That or people question the quality of the players. The same players schooling their international contemporaries up until 21. It's all ready made excuses. You can bet though that when one of the foreign players gets a chance in their league English football fans will be all over them.

Personally Onomah loan is annoying, hopefully Poch letting him go on loan isn't a bad thing, but he needs games. Feels like a wasted year though as he could have done that last year, feels like so little planning. Let's just hope Onomah asking to go on loan doesn't affect his relationship, I know Winks kept hassling Poch too and was refused but hasn't seemed to affected them.



I actually agree, that Poch seems to be starting to shows glimpses of actually bring an academy player through in Winks, but regardless of what game he started (Bertrand started CL final) starting 3 PL matches is hardly a first team player.

If we were linked to a player who had only made 3 league starts, I'm sure you wouldn't describe him as an established player, you'd most likely call him a youth player or say he's a signing that would go into our development squad, as you did with Vincent Marcel who had only made 4 league starts last season.

Winks played about 3x the number of minutes than Marcel.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

@Bus-Conductor - I think the biggest flaw in your analysis is that players have to get minutes to "get the same chances" as others.

I have now seen a Poch training session - and I can report it is very intense, there is no room to hide, and everyone in the session has an opportunity to "show their quality", as Poch might say. The training session was, in fact, more intense than the match the next day.

Players such as CCV, KWP, Onomah, and all the other youth products have a tremendous opportunity to earn match time. That training, every day, is more significant than a few random minutes at the end of games. I can assure you that the situations are similar to match situations - these are not simply football drills. Players are constantly evaluated against each other.

We, the public, generally do not get a chance to evaluate their progress, but we are not charged with making those decisions, nor will we be sacked if we get those decisions wrong. But, I have no doubt that all players in the squad, regardless of pedigree, are given the same opportunities to play.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here ? Are you saying you've seen one training session and KWP and Onomah weren't at the level of the other, more senior players? Or are you saying unless we see players train we can't formulate an opinion of them ?

I find it very hard to believe that KWP trains any less intensely than Trippier does, or that Onomah's footballing ability looks worse than Dier's in training.

 

[IGSpur]

Winks played about 3x the number of minutes than Marcel.

So if we were linked to someone with Winks' experience you'd describe him as what?

 

[panoma]

I'm happy Onomah got a loan. Kane, Walker and Rose all benefited from similar loans. If he stayed he would probably barely feature anyways as it seems TOB's about to take his squad place regardless.

Also it's great to have a reason to watch some more football games

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here ? Are you saying you've seen one training session and KWP and Onomah weren't at the level of the other, more senior players? Or are you saying unless we see players train we can't formulate an opinion of them ?

I find it very hard to believe that KWP trains any less intensely than Trippier does, or that Onomah's footballing ability looks worse than Dier's in training.

In my uneducated view, KWP was at the level needed. Onomah was training alone - presumably carrying a knock

What I am saying is that there are other ways for players to get an "opportunity" than getting minutes at the end of matches. You equate match time with getting opportunities from Poch.

Its also not about how hard they train - its about measuring them against other members of the squad - those that are ready get their chances.

 

[Lilbaz]

Because Edwards can't play left wing back?!

Yes he can.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

So if we were linked to someone with Winks' experience you'd describe him as what?

If he'd started Champions League matches I'd probably see them as more of a first-team player.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Yes he can.

about as much as kane can play in goal, he'd get murdered there lol.

 

[IGSpur]

If he'd started Champions League matches I'd probably see them as more of a first-team player.

Fair. Personally don't think most fans would describe the player as a first teamer.

In fact I'd imagine most Spurs fans would be underwhelmed if we signed a player with Winks' experience, and would rather a play who will come in ready to challenge the first 11 or go straight into the first team, and not want another experimental signing etc.

 

[Lilbaz]

about as much as kane can play in goal, he'd get murdered there lol.

Didn't he play left back at the wc final? He has played there before.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Fair. Personally don't think most fans would describe the player as a first teamer.

In fact I'd imagine most Spurs fans would be underwhelmed if we signed a player with Winks' experience, and would rather a play who will come in ready to challenge the first 11 or go straight into the first team, and not want another experimental signing etc.

Dele had less PL "experience" than Winks...its not about experience, its about ability.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Fair. Personally don't think most fans would describe the player as a first teamer.

In fact I'd imagine most Spurs fans would be underwhelmed if we signed a player with Winks' experience, and would rather a play who will come in ready to challenge the first 11 or go straight into the first team, and not want another experimental signing etc.

When I say first-teamer, I mean someone who'd be around the first-team squad, not necessarily a starter.

 

[C0YS]

Is it possible that most our youth players simply aren't good enough? CCV and Onomah for instance have never looked particularly good in any of their senior games, while Edwards looked good against both Valerenga last pre season and against Gillingham in the cup. Winks might be good enough, but he could also end up like Mason (very unlucky timing on the injury for Winks). The one great success is Kane is recent years.

If we look at other youth products like Caulker, Pritchard, Mason, Carroll, Bentaleb, Livermore, Bostock, Stewart and many more they have all gone on to have fine careers, but none would improve our current side.

I guess what I'm getting at is do we get to recruit the top talent around, or do they get picked up by the money teams and we're left with the "second best"? Or is our coaching at youth Level not good enough to get the best out of the players? Or do none really have the required skill level so we are ok with just producing "fine" players that we can make a profit on?

I only watch the odd youth game at Liverpool or Manchester United TV, but i do watch every senior match that's televised somewhere (including every pre season game), so my information mostly comes from the that so I'd greatly appreciate the opinion from the more knowledgable youth watchers.

I hate the crazy barometer of youth success around. All of Bentaleb, Mason and Townsend made at least 65 appearances each for Spurs. All of them became full internationals at Spurs and in the case of Mason and Bentaleb they were literally first choice midfielder for one season. These are players who were important for us at a point in our history. I think thats a success. Like ultimately they contributed to the first team in a meaningful way. Thats a success.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Didn't he play left back at the wc final? He has played there before.

that's kwp, not edwards.

 

[Lilbaz]

that's kwp, not edwards.

Sorry having a brain fart. Thought we were talking kwp. I'll just keep quiet.

 

[IGSpur]

Dele had less PL "experience" than Winks...its not about experience, its about ability.

The point I was debating was how established Winks is. I don't mind if someone has little experience but a lot of ability, it's the collective point in this thread that those with ability and little experience, should be getting chances

 

[IGSpur]

I hate the crazy barometer of youth success around. All of Bentaleb, Mason and Townsend made at least 65 appearances each for Spurs. All of them became full internationals at Spurs and in the case of Mason and Bentaleb they were literally first choice midfielder for one season. These are players who were important for us at a point in our history. I think thats a success. Like ultimately they contributed to the first team in a meaningful way. Thats a success.

100% this. To expect academy players to be starters for a top 6 side is bold. If they become good contributing members to the squad for a year or 2 and go onto have good careers in the PL or other leagues, that's a great success.

Some will be top 6 players but we won't find out unless they're giving a chance. These players will do as a good a job as Chadli, N'Jie, Paulinho etc. but make us load of money, build a connection with the fans and play harder for the team.

 

[Grim54]

100% this. To expect academy players to be starters for a top 6 side is bold. If they become good contributing members to the squad for a year or 2 and go onto have good careers in the PL or other leagues, that's a great success.

Some will be top 6 players but we won't find out unless they're giving a chance. These players will do as a good a job as Chadli, N'Jie, Paulinho etc. but make us load of money, build a connection with the fans and play harder for the team.

Its easy to point to the failures and state that the kids would do as good a job. But there is no Chairman in the world who could buy Eriksen but not Chadli, Dier but not Paulinho, Dele but not N'Jie etc. You have to take the rough with the smooth.

 

[ljinko888]

@Bus-Conductor - I think the biggest flaw in your analysis is that players have to get minutes to "get the same chances" as others.

I have now seen a Poch training session - and I can report it is very intense, there is no room to hide, and everyone in the session has an opportunity to "show their quality", as Poch might say. The training session was, in fact, more intense than the match the next day.

Players such as CCV, KWP, Onomah, and all the other youth products have a tremendous opportunity to earn match time. That training, every day, is more significant than a few random minutes at the end of games. I can assure you that the situations are similar to match situations - these are not simply football drills. Players are constantly evaluated against each other.

We, the public, generally do not get a chance to evaluate their progress, but we are not charged with making those decisions, nor will we be sacked if we get those decisions wrong. But, I have no doubt that all players in the squad, regardless of pedigree, are given the same opportunities to play.

Reminds me of a quote by Sheringham that training sessions with Keane, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Stam, Schmeichel etc were often more challenging than actual matches.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

100% this. To expect academy players to be starters for a top 6 side is bold. If they become good contributing members to the squad for a year or 2 and go onto have good careers in the PL or other leagues, that's a great success.

Some will be top 6 players but we won't find out unless they're giving a chance. These players will do as a good a job as Chadli, N'Jie, Paulinho etc. but make us load of money, build a connection with the fans and play harder for the team.

Its easy to point to the failures and state that the kids would do as good a job. But there is no Chairman in the world who could buy Eriksen but not Chadli, Dier but not Paulinho, Dele but not N'Jie etc. You have to take the rough with the smooth.

While I agree with both of your overriding points, since when was Chadli not at least a qualified success? He came in at a low price and, despite in large not being a first choice, managed to both score and assist goals with some regularity, provide a fair bit of flair and play more than his part as support act to the emergence of Kane as a top class player. Ginola or Bale he might not have been, but he deserves far better than being tarnished with the same brust as the likes of Paulinho and N'Jie who were unmitigated failures with us.