ITK Discussion The Daily ITK Discussion Thread 3rd January

King of Otters said:

Not a question (please don't ban me, ye Gods), but it's interesting that your tone has changed so much from the wild optimism of the previous two transfer windows.

I wonder what has changed? Last year it was a hinted at sponsorship deal that was going to transform our transfer dealings, 12 months later, and we have no signings, no game-changing sponsorship deal, and, instead, 'very challenging months ahead in more ways than one'.

My guess is the stadium has fucked us financially, which is deeply ironic in a deeply depressing way as this was supposed to be the very game changer that would transform our finances for the better.

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This unplanned delay must have cost the club tens of £millions if we're honest, guess that pinch has to be felt somewhere.

Trix said:

Don't know how current JJ's info is(as in we have tried recently and been knocked back again) but both De Jong and Pulisic turned us down in the Summer. Neither was a wages issue at that point from what I was told.

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Is it another one of those 'You are not big enough for me' jobs?

Blackrat1299 said:

Is it another one of those 'You are not big enough for me' jobs?

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Herc just confirmed its paying the agent for Pulisic

Trix said:

B

Bingo!

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In which case, in my book that makes Pulisic extremely naive at best and a complete dimwit at worst.

Hercules said:

Archaic. Like it or not. The sporting world is changing. Pay the agent (like it or not). Gets the player. Speak to manga clubs, Liverpool, Chavs. They have accepted it. As I said, very challenging months ahead in more ways than one.

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That’s scary; unless Levy changes his modus operandi towards agents, CL football, wages and facilities aren’t going to land us the players we need

dfree said:

And those two players have been instrumental in them being top, whilst we've sat on our hands and done nothing. If that's what you have to do in the modern market to sign top players we need to get with the times.

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Exactly. Any agent fee should be factored in to the overall price, even if its half the transfer fee!

I thought there was previous ITK (in the summer) saying that Levy did, indeed, pay agents' fees?

Perhaps he's not paying enough anymore to get the players we need, which puts us back at square one, but I thought someone said that he has paid up in the past?

hellava_tough said:

We also need to be smarter with our selling strategy.

It's pretty depressing that Toby is going to leave the club for a cut-price rate and Eriksen may do the same in the next 18 months.

Then there's Dembele who probably should have been replaced at the end of the 16/17 season, where we could have got a chunk of change for him and brought in a new up-and-coming prospect, who would last us years.

I'm also slightly worried that Verts may be out the door for next to nothing in the next 18 months (or 24 months); he hasn't signed a new deal yet. Tbh, with Verts and Toby, we were looking at a £130m+ combined valuation for them a season or two ago.

I'm not saying go crazy and sell all our best players; I understand that we need to build a winning team/squad.

However, we don't have unlimited cash like some of our rivals, so we need to make the most of our resources (players); sell big, bring in 1 or 2 excellent young prospects with monies received, rinse and repeat until we've got a squad capable of winning the title.

And if we are going to keep certain players, we need to make sure they have 3+ years on their contracts. If they haven't signed a new deal with less than 3 years left, then they should be moved on, unless there's a very specific decision not to cash in on them.

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the trouble with Eriksen is he only wants 1 or 2 clubs, so if he doesn't sign a contract would we get a fee for him in the summer if 1 of those clubs don't sign him.

if another club matches our valuation of Eriksen but he doesn't want to join, then we are at risk losing him for nothing in 18 months

This is totally a guess but based on Herc's tone recently and what JJ said on December 26 about just enjoying the journey and success, the long-term plan was to build/invest money in the stadium and training facilities with the hope/goal that it would attract and retain the type of quality players needed to become a top long-term successful club. Spurs have never been a club that spent a lot of money on transfers and perhaps they thought the facilities would allow them to get away with playing all of the agent games and spending the type of money that the other top clubs are spending.

However, with the stadium costing WAY more than expected as well as the facilities and stadium not really being the selling point for top players that they hopes it would be (DeJong and Pulisic favoring other clubs over us), maybe Spurs are really struggling at this moment to get their plan to work out the way they had hoped. Money is still factor #1, 2, and 3 for most players (especially with all of the TV money) and perhaps due to the stadium or perhaps to Levy still being a little Levy-ish with negotiations and fees, they can't get in who they want. They also can't keep all the players they want (Eriksen for example as they are offering good wages along with the facilities upgrade but he still has his heart set on Madrid).

Again this is just an educated guess on my part based on the ITK comments. I hope I'm wrong. Some trophies would probably help the pull of the club with players but in the end it all comes down to money. Will the stadium that was really the heart of this long-term plan actually be the thing that prevents it because the cost is just so much higher than what was expected? Hopefully this is just a temporary bump in the road that they can work their way through. As long as Poch is here, I think we can be optimistic. If he doesn't stay this summer, then I think that confirmation that this is all not working out the way they hoped.

King of Otters said:

Not a question (please don't ban me, ye Gods), but it's interesting that your tone has changed so much from the wild optimism of the previous two transfer windows.

I wonder what has changed? Last year it was a hinted at sponsorship deal that was going to transform our transfer dealings, 12 months later, and we have no signings, no game-changing sponsorship deal, and, instead, 'very challenging months ahead in more ways than one'.

My guess is the stadium has fucked us financially, which is deeply ironic in a deeply depressing way as this was supposed to be the very game changer that would transform our finances for the better.

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I think the optimism was because we were probably expecting some naming rights and for it to not over run at great expense.

allatsea said:

Can you imagine the reaction on here and elsewhere if we had sold Toby and Eriksen last summer or the summer before in the case of Toby ? That is the implication of your post - new contract signed or sell - no other option.

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You're right on those two options; new contract or sold.

Except there's a third option; if the club think they're one or two players away from winning the league, then they should take a hit on the value of a player, as their contract runs down, and go all out and get the final 1 or 2 players needed.

We've almost done that with the likes of Toby (and possibly Eriksen...we'll see). Trouble is, we failed to sign the last pieces of the puzzle.

In fact, we failed to sign anyone.

So, yeah, it's a viable option, but you need to know what you're doing as it's a risky strategy.

PS You say 'Imagine the reaction on here if we sold Toby and Eriksen'. Firstly, if the results are good on the pitch, things quickly get forgotten. Secondly, if Toby and Eriksen had been shipped out, and Baily, Zaha and De Ligt* had come in, I think that would have softened the blow.

*or 3 other quality players, depending on who you like...etc, etc...

I'm not sorry we are looking at players like De Jong but understand some of the frustration.

I presume we started keeping tabs on him a few years ago and that he has gone from very promising youngster to the, or one of the, most coveted young players in the world. His development seems very quick for someone so young. I don't think we're coming in for him late but some players like this which we track will get away.

The issue for me lies in whether we are pursuing a big enough pool of players so that if some don't progress properly or turn into players that Barcelona are desperate for then we are left with nothing. Luck plays a role as well probably.

King of Otters said:

Not a question (please don't ban me, ye Gods), but it's interesting that your tone has changed so much from the wild optimism of the previous two transfer windows.

I wonder what has changed? Last year it was a hinted at sponsorship deal that was going to transform our transfer dealings, 12 months later, and we have no signings, no game-changing sponsorship deal, and, instead, 'very challenging months ahead in more ways than one'.

My guess is the stadium has fucked us financially, which is deeply ironic in a deeply depressing way as this was supposed to be the very game changer that would transform our finances for the better.

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@Hercules was not at all optimistic by the close of the summer transfer window.

To be honest, the last 12 to 14 years have seen us do some pretty decent wheeling and dealing in the transfer market, to get to where we are now with the squad we have.

But recently we seem to have hit a bit of a brick wall; something in the club, or in the wider transfer market, or both, has changed and we haven't been able to adapt to it.

With regards to the stadium, you would have thought Levy would have factored in delays and fluctuations in cost, such that it wouldn't have an impact on the playing squad/transfer dealings. Afterall, he's got a first class degree from Cambridge in Economics and Land Economy. So I'm not too sure how much the stadium has to do with it.

It's hard to assess these things when we only get snippets of info.

From Hercules' messages, though, I get the impression that Levy doesn't really want to pay 'over the odds' for players, and Poch is pretty stubborn in the narrow range of players that he's willing to consider, despite the fact that the scouting team are identifying lots of players that would be worth a punt.

And since we've already got a squad who are good enough to achieve CL football, by hook or by crook, there isn't the urgency (yet) for anyone to challenge the current MO.

Metalhead said:

@Hercules was not at all optimistic by the close of the summer transfer window.

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True, but he was previously ( I think it was Jan 2018 or late 2017 - need to double check that).

hellava_tough said:

True, but he was previously ( I think it was Jan 2018 or late 2017 - need to double check that).

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True, I think he used to be optimistic.

thebenjamin said:

Depressing that we can't even attract top young players, you'd think that would be one area we'd have a head start, given our track record of developing them.

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I suspect that the very best young players typically won't be happy with the idea of a club 'developing' them - rather, they want to be treated like they've already arrived. A club promising them development rather than a guaranteed first team place probably isn't doing itself any favours.

'Development at a top six Premier League Club' is a carrot to be offered to the likes of Berge, Bowens and players of that calibre who would be moving to a club of significantly greater stature than their current side.

A De Ligt or Pulisic, established internationals moving from clubs of comparable size to ours, wants the Premier League money (and we can't/won't match the wages + agent fees offered by the 3, 4 or all 5 of the other top six teams), they want to move to a team where they'll be challenging for significant trophies, and they want to be playing regularly. If we can't pay what others can, can't offer the likelihood of trophies that others can and/or can't or won't guarantee them regular first team football, then we're not going to be attractive compared to the other sides.

Having that reinforced by seeing great players routinely move elsewhere that would strengthen our side... That seems to be something we have to get used to, based on what we're hearing.

*

It is deeply frustrating that our shortlists are apparently so short. Of course we're looking for great players, and so we should, but that the summer shopping list appears to have been only a very few players and no alternatives, and that we're not in a position to sign anyone early in this window to make the most of that added time... I do wonder how specific our list of criteria for incoming players is.

The inability to move on bitpart players like Vorm and N'Koudou seemingly continues to cost us, as we apparently can't move until they're gone. I wonder if there's a willingness to, for example, let Vorm go on a free just to free up that squad space; Gazzaniga seems to be the second choice keeper now, so that surely has to be under consideration... but is the club in a position even to sacrifice that potential return of a fee from selling him?

Hercules said:

Archaic. Like it or not. The sporting world is changing. Pay the agent (like it or not). Gets the player. Speak to manga clubs, Liverpool, Chavs. They have accepted it. As I said, very challenging months ahead in more ways than one.

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We're never going to sign another player again

Trix said:

It's not always about wages. Agents fees and their affiliations with clubs/owners are also a big part to play.

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Guess that's why a number of our players when we signed them were the only big fish in their agents' ponds.

leemason2302 said:

If our owners are incapable of signing a single target the best manager we have had in years, is it time for them or him to move on? I couldn't imagine being in a job where im constantly told the tools i require are unattainable, whist watching others get what they want.

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Spam and dislike all you like but im not wrong ?