Ramos Tactics...What have you noticed???

Just over a month ago when we were at the lowest of the low I wrote this thread discussing 6 basic things that were glaringly obvious that needed to be improved:

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=20954

Those 6 things if you can't be arsed to read that were:

1. Full backs allowing too many balls in
2. Defence sitting too deep
3. Midfield not working as a unit
4. Midfield over complicating the play
5. Not closing down, winning 50/50's or tracking back
6. Static forward play

Now, people can say we were only playing against Wigan, but most of those points are things that aren't affected by the opposition. In the Wigan game there were some very noticable improvements in a number of those points.

1. Wigan didn't really attack so much so the fullbacks weren't really tested so much, however they did allow Micky Brown to get on the end of a cross, which means that the cross was allowed to get in. Need to see more to know if there has been an imporvement.

2. The defence was defending noticably higher and were not inviting pressure by allowing the opposition to play in that area in front of the defence. A couple of times I saw Daws attacking the ball on the halfway line stopping Wigan in their tracks.

3. The two midfielders seemed to have far more obvious roles and complimented each other much better.

4. They simply just did their jobs, nothing too fancy too early and any time they did something a bit more flashy it was very high up the pitch and not in a dangerous area.

5. The closing down, 50/50's and tracking back was so much improved I thought I was watching a different team. When you see Lennon sliding back to by our corner flag and the whole midfield pressing for pretty much the whole game you know something is getting through.

6. The movement was fantastic and we were opening Wigan up at will. Lennon was really stretching them on the wing, allowing Berba and Keano to float into numerous different positions. Was very dynamic.

I can see us improving on all of these things even further and hopefully it will become second nature and we won't even discuss how different things are. I'm impressed with the way things are already developing, just praying it continues.

Well I'll repeat for the people who haven't read the responses, JR definitely has made one important change at least - he's playing Lennon and Steed in their correct positions (IMHO)

I think all of us should wait til the west ham game until we start to make any conclusions about the strength of Ramos' tacitics. We played excellent attacking football against Wigan, but they were very poor, and I think we would have beaten them just as convincingly if Jol had still been in charge of the tactics.

DC_Boy said:

Well I'll repeat for the people who haven't read the responses, JR definitely has made one important change at least - he's playing Lennon and Steed in their correct positions (IMHO)

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Strictly speaking, LM is not Steed's correct position, although over the summer he has learned the difference between the left touchline and the centre circle!

It will be interesting to see what happens when Bale returns.

SpurSince57 said:

Strictly speaking, LM is not Steed's correct position, although over the summer he has learned the difference between the left touchline and the centre circle!

It will be interesting to see what happens when Bale returns.

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Steed has been playing very well recently, but in the wigan game he drifted in far too often and Lee had few options going forward. I hope bale comes straight back into the side as we look far more balanced when he plays. Overall though I am more than happy with Lennon, Bale and Steed taking turns to fill our wide berths. I wonder if Routledge will ever get a look in - surely his contract is up soon and he'll go?

nicdic said:

How do you expect him to pick a different team? He has the same players. The way they are playing is better though. Closing down and defending higher up the pitch is a big change, and so is chasing a second goal instead of sitting back. They were Jol's biggest pitfalls, along with the complete lack of movement in the team. This is just a taster of what is to come I think.

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I dont expect him to pick another team. But I expect him do so in the future. That is sort of the point: changes takes time.

However, I do aknowledge the tactical changes he has made defensively, as I already pointed out. But I can not see that the direct attacking style is much different from Jol's. We were one of the 2-3 best attacking sides in the league under him, and only lost some of that spark due to the unrest and uncertainty that came with the Ramos-saga. Basically, we are so good in that part of the field that it will take time and effort to even think of improving it...

InOffMeLeftShin said:

In the Wigan game there were some very noticable improvements in a number of those points.

1. Wigan didn't really attack so much so the fullbacks weren't really tested so much, however they did allow Micky Brown to get on the end of a cross, which means that the cross was allowed to get in. Need to see more to know if there has been an imporvement.

2. The defence was defending noticably higher and were not inviting pressure by allowing the opposition to play in that area in front of the defence. A couple of times I saw Daws attacking the ball on the halfway line stopping Wigan in their tracks.

3. The two midfielders seemed to have far more obvious roles and complimented each other much better.

4. They simply just did their jobs, nothing too fancy too early and any time they did something a bit more flashy it was very high up the pitch and not in a dangerous area.

5. The closing down, 50/50's and tracking back was so much improved I thought I was watching a different team. When you see Lennon sliding back to by our corner flag and the whole midfield pressing for pretty much the whole game you know something is getting through.

6. The movement was fantastic and we were opening Wigan up at will. Lennon was really stretching them on the wing, allowing Berba and Keano to float into numerous different positions. Was very dynamic.

I can see us improving on all of these things even further and hopefully it will become second nature and we won't even discuss how different things are. I'm impressed with the way things are already developing, just praying it continues.

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Good post. Many of these adjustments and refinements were hallmarks of Ramos' Sevilla team. I don't think we'll see any great change of system (ie no 4-3-3 etc), but we will see a very well organized 4-4-2 which aims to prevent the opposition from getting any rhythm, and is always ready to counterattack at pace - especially down the wings.

As SC's very own "Juande_Ramos" suggests, once Alvarez has got the squad fitter and Ramos has really drilled the tactics into them, we will be pressing the opposition in a way never before seen at the Lane.

Beyond this, one of the most interesting aspects will be seeing who Ramos thinks can play in his system, and where? For instance, I wouldn't be surprized if he continues playing Berbatov a bit deeper (like Kanoute at Sevilla) with a fast striker ahead of him (and it'll be up to Keano to show Ramos he can play there). Similarly, given the demands for mobility and a high-tempo pressing game, the ITK aobut Ramos seeing Hud as a CB is logical - the issue will be whether Big Tom is a good enough defender to play there. Steed has been playing out of his skin, and proved against the Israelis that he can cross with his left foot - which is just as well for his Spurs future because Juande likes his wide players to go down the line and cross (one reason why Fredi scored so many goals for Sevilla).

Finally, I'm still convinced that if Poulsen does have a £7 million release clause, then he'll be a Spurs player in January. And since Jenas or KPB would be the natural foil for him, (unless we break the bank for a genuine playmaker like Xavi or Arteta), I think that will probably be the end for Zokora and maybe Tainio.

SpurSince57 said:

Strictly speaking, LM is not Steed's correct position, although over the summer he has learned the difference between the left touchline and the centre circle!

It will be interesting to see what happens when Bale returns.

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Okay 57 The only reason I didn't spell it all out again as I've done it all in the thread earlier. I think you could have acknowledged that if you are going to be pedantic

When on the wings the left is Steed's correct position and Lennon on the right. That's the tactical improvement JR has made over MJ that i've been referring to, and you have discussed earlier, so I'm sure you knew what I was talking about, but for the sake of clarity I can see it needs spelling out.

DC_Boy said:

Okay 57 The only reason I didn't spell it all out again as I've done it all in the thread earlier. I think you could have acknowledged that if you are going to be pedantic

When on the wings the left is Steed's correct position and Lennon on the right. That's the tactical improvement JR has made over MJ that i've been referring to, and you have discussed earlier, so I'm sure you knew what I was talking about, but for the sake of clarity I can see it needs spelling out.

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You say 'proper' positions but Lennon (at the Wigan game) attacked down both flanks and through the middle. He's dangerous getting forward. And I like the fact that he changes wings occasionally, it gives us a different attacking dimension. There's no point in struggling along playing players in their fixed positions if they're not getting a result. It only adds to Lennon's game that he can do a job on the left - so I dissent to the view that he suddenly becomes a bad player because he's not on the right hand side - because he simply doesn't.

He scored the majority of his goals with his left foot last year, and if you watch him on youtube, a lot of his productive highlights show him cutting in from the left.

So his 'proper' position is on a wing. He has the capability to play both.

Stoof said:

You say 'proper' positions but Lennon (at the Wigan game) attacked down both flanks and through the middle. He's dangerous getting forward. And I like the fact that he changes wings occasionally, it gives us a different attacking dimension. There's no point in struggling along playing players in their fixed positions if they're not getting a result. It only adds to Lennon's game that he can do a job on the left - so I dissent to the view that he suddenly becomes a bad player because he's not on the right hand side - because he simply doesn't.

He scored the majority of his goals with his left foot last year, and if you watch him on youtube, a lot of his productive highlights show him cutting in from the left.

So his 'proper' position is on a wing. He has the capability to play both.

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Disagree Stoof - Lennon's proper position is on the right, which is precisely where JR has been playing him for the vast majority of the time. When Steed and Lennon have started that's where they've been playing and that's where i like to see them play. Hence I think JR is doing better than MJ who didn't do this to the same extent.

Of course at times Lennon wil cut in whatever and even at times play on the left, but his best position is on the right, Steed's on the left - that's what JR's been doing and I think it's an improvement.

Stoof said:

You say 'proper' positions but Lennon (at the Wigan game) attacked down both flanks and through the middle. He's dangerous getting forward. And I like the fact that he changes wings occasionally, it gives us a different attacking dimension. There's no point in struggling along playing players in their fixed positions if they're not getting a result. It only adds to Lennon's game that he can do a job on the left - so I dissent to the view that he suddenly becomes a bad player because he's not on the right hand side - because he simply doesn't.

He scored the majority of his goals with his left foot last year, and if you watch him on youtube, a lot of his productive highlights show him cutting in from the left.

So his 'proper' position is on a wing. He has the capability to play both.

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I agree he is perfectly capable of playing on the left, it just happens that his dip in form and his seeming unwillingness to take on the defender happened to coincide with him playing a period of time on the left.

Personally I think if he continues to run at the defenders then he can play either side effectively. He causes the full back all sorts of problems with his acceleration, he has pretty good feet too. Whether his final ball is good or not may not even be an issue, he causes so much terror to the defender that often more than one player ends up sticking on him which opens up way more space for the likes of Berba and Keano. If it is obvious that the opposition has a weaker right back than left back (or conversely a stronger attacking right back that we want to keep pinned back) then Lennon is a natural selection on the left when he is positive.

yanno said:

Finally, I'm still convinced that if Poulsen does have a £7 million release clause, then he'll be a Spurs player in January. And since Jenas or KPB would be the natural foil for him, (unless we break the bank for a genuine playmaker like Xavi or Arteta), I think that will probably be the end for Zokora and maybe Tainio.

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I don't think we will be signing Poulsen, yanno, even if he does have a release clause. Ramos already came out and said that he won't be going back for any Sevilla players unless they areout of contract.

yanno said:

Good post. Many of these adjustments and refinements were hallmarks of Ramos' Sevilla team. I don't think we'll see any great change of system (ie no 4-3-3 etc), but we will see a very well organized 4-4-2 which aims to prevent the opposition from getting any rhythm, and is always ready to counterattack at pace - especially down the wings.

As SC's very own "Juande_Ramos" suggests, once Alvarez has got the squad fitter and Ramos has really drilled the tactics into them, we will be pressing the opposition in a way never before seen at the Lane.

Beyond this, one of the most interesting aspects will be seeing who Ramos thinks can play in his system, and where? For instance, I wouldn't be surprized if he continues playing Berbatov a bit deeper (like Kanoute at Sevilla) with a fast striker ahead of him (and it'll be up to Keano to show Ramos he can play there). Similarly, given the demands for mobility and a high-tempo pressing game, the ITK aobut Ramos seeing Hud as a CB is logical - the issue will be whether Big Tom is a good enough defender to play there. Steed has been playing out of his skin, and proved against the Israelis that he can cross with his left foot - which is just as well for his Spurs future because Juande likes his wide players to go down the line and cross (one reason why Fredi scored so many goals for Sevilla).

Finally, I'm still convinced that if Poulsen does have a £7 million release clause, then he'll be a Spurs player in January. And since Jenas or KPB would be the natural foil for him, (unless we break the bank for a genuine playmaker like Xavi or Arteta), I think that will probably be the end for Zokora and maybe Tainio.

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This has probably been mentioned previously but i am sure the Hudd started off as a CB at Derby, and moved into the DM role when hoddle had him at Wolves for a short period. I imagine he can still do a job but atm lacks the pace to be there.

InOffMeLeftShin said:

I don't think we will be signing Poulsen, yanno, even if he does have a release clause. Ramos already came out and said that he won't be going back for any Sevilla players unless they areout of contract.

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Call me a cynic, but I took Ramos' comments about not buying Sevilla players with a pinch of salt. And the larger issue is that the only Sevilla players we have a chance of getting are those with realistic buy-out clauses; Del Nido would love to charge us way over market price for any of the others, and if he refused £20 million-plus for Alves from Chelsea then he'd quote us £40 million!!!

As soon as Ramos was appointed, I wrote on these boards that Poulsen was his most likely signing from Sevilla, essentially because he's exactly the kind of player we don't have, and because - along with Kanoute, Alves, and Palop - he was one of the only players Ramos didn't seem to rotate. We only need Fredi if Berba's off, and for my money, Chimbo is much better suited to the EPL than Alves who would be a defensive liability against lots of English clubs. So, of Ramos' key players @ Sevilla, Poulsen is the one who most seems to fit our needs.

If there is a minimum fee release clause in Poulsen's contract, Ramos would know about it, and - like Hoddle denying he was after Robbie Keane hours before signing him - there's no point alerting the rest of Europe and getting into a bidding war on his wages. Although Man City may already have scuppered that plan...

Against this, assuming Poulsen is available for £7 million, the only reason we wouldn't go for him would be if Ramos thinks he can get a top-class CM playmaker, and the (slightly dodgy) links with Arteta, Xavi and Carrick suggest we may be looking this way instead.

dixiespurs said:

This has probably been mentioned previously but i am sure the Hudd started off as a CB at Derby, and moved into the DM role when hoddle had him at Wolves for a short period. I imagine he can still do a job but atm lacks the pace to be there.

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If the Ramos plan is to play with the back four pushed up, then Thudd is less likely than ever to be deployed at CB.

I can't help wondering if part of threason we defended deep under Jol was to avoid exposing Dawson's lack of pace. The main reason though would have been to avoid congesting the midfield, which suited Jol's fluid passing game.

eddiebailey said:

If the Ramos plan is to play with the back four pushed up, then Thudd is less likely than ever to be deployed at CB.

I can't help wondering if part of threason we defended deep under Jol was to avoid exposing Dawson's lack of pace. The main reason though would have been to avoid congesting the midfield, which suited Jol's fluid passing game.

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Very true. Although, looking at Sevilla's defenders, with the exception of the attack-minded Alves, none of them have any great pace, and Ramos played with a high line there.

As I've posted elsewhere in relation to the Hud ITK, I think the suggestion that Ramos does not see Big Tom as a CM could well be correct, but the rumour that he sees him as a CB is intriguing. It might well suit his passing game, but his lack of pace and, even more cruciallly, his slowness on the turn suggest he'd be exposed at CB. And Jol seemed to rule out playing him there.

Thudd as a SW :shrug:

nicdic said:

How do you expect him to pick a different team? He has the same players. The way they are playing is better though. Closing down and defending higher up the pitch is a big change, and so is chasing a second goal instead of sitting back. They were Jol's biggest pitfalls, along with the complete lack of movement in the team. This is just a taster of what is to come I think.

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:clap: I could not have put it better myself ...

michaelden said:

Thudd as a SW :shrug:

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Ramos plays 4-4-2

bubble07 said:

I have noticed the weaker oppositions we have faced so far

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:hump: Yes, we will se at West Ham how far we have come...