The price is too high

I have a soft spot for Harry Redknapp because he is the only (I emphasise) manager to give us true Tottenham football in the PL era. I know people say that about Poch, but it wasn't the same. Redknapp made some really uninspiring players flourish, and he did it so well that I'm pretty sure we were everyone's 2nd favourite team for at least one season.

Unfortunately, the style of play also meant we were just as likely to get thumped as we were to win in a flourish. As such, it was evident that you can't be successful and sexy unless you're already successful.

I don't really know why people moan about Mourinho's football though - it really isn't that bad, and a lot of negativity I think comes from a pre-conception that is fed to us. There have been bad games, but not having fans I think lacks the 'lift' that the team would normally get to motivate them. We're not the only team that suffers from this.

I feel like the reaction is overall quite strange, as AVB's football was so bad I hated my life. It was simply horrific. Some people will point towards the Man Utd win, or finishing with the highest points blah blah, and what we've seen under Mourinho is lightyears away from that. It's almost like you'd need to combine the two so people could like AVB and talk about how pretty he looked, but still have the counter attacking football that I feel is otherwise treated based on personal feelings towards Jose.

Tim's football wasn't too dissimilar to Redknapp's imo - not as good, but the same volatile style where we could just as easily lose 4-0 to a team as we were to win 4-0.

'O Zio said:

That's not what I said you said, but you've spent the last 2 or 3 posts you've made making the point that there isn't a correlation between negative football and winning, while there is one between attacking football and winning. I'm arguing that there's no correlation between any of it. You can win in both ways and in fact many people do. Just depends on the circumstances of the team in question.

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No that literally isn't what I'm saying. I was dismissing the link between negative football and success by pointing out most successful teams play decent football.

I don't think playing easy on the eye football = success. (How could a spurs fan ever come to that conclusion.) But I also don't believe the opposite.

I was refering to the OP, and the general consensus that conclude that the price we pay for success must inevitably come from diminished entertainment.

CowInAComa said:

Could argue about dictionary definitions. But do you want to continue to indulge in twisting words and semantics when you are fully aware of exactly the point I made? Maybe argue that instead of playing to your crowd.

And i stand by it. There is no reason to believe negative football will equate to success or is a price to pay for it.

And I stand by the fact that *most* successful teams play entertaining football.

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I would say that most successful teams have the most money and have the best players.

At the moment our first team on paper is not as strong as Liverpool or Man City.

If we are to be successful then I believe we'll need to grind results out. With our current squad we won't succeed by outplaying everyone.

Mourinho has not won anything with Spurs yet and it's boring as hell to watch. I ask myself: If we win the Carabao Cup seating deep with 20-80 % possession, will I want to replay that game? I don't think so. I will be happy if we win the Cup but excited I don't think so.

CowInAComa said:

Could argue about dictionary definitions. But do you want to continue to indulge in twisting words and semantics when you are fully aware of exactly the point I made? Maybe argue that instead of playing to your crowd.

And i stand by it. There is no reason to believe negative football will equate to success or is a price to pay for it.

And I stand by the fact that *most* successful teams play entertaining football.

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That last sentence essentially undercuts your point.

Just so there's absolutely no confusion, your first point stated:

CowInAComa said:

There is no correlation between successful football and playing negative football. In fact, in most instances, successful teams are highly entertaining.

There is no price to pay to see Spurs win something and we shouldnt indulge the notion that this is a necessary evil we have to suffer.

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I've highlighted the relevant phrase, here, with the operative word in it being 'no'. Not 'most', not 'few', or any kind of qualified amount. It says none.

Now, arguing semantics though it may be, I'm doing it to highlight your preconception. It's very clear that you're operating on the basis that you either don't like the football on offer or the person offering it and therefore, in your mind, it has no value. Doing that is actually not an issue. No one's saying you have to like the football, nor that you have to like the manager.

The problem is is that you think you need to justify whatever it is you don't like by creating (or supporting) a false narrative. The fact that you've changed your assertion from negative football never works, to negative football rarely works shows that you don't actually believe your assertion but are saying it because you want to believe it.

But you don't need to do that, dude. If your position is so secure, why seek to justify it with a false narrative? You don't need to. Just be honest. Say you don't like the football, say you don't like Mourinho, whatever you like. But don't say that his work has been unsuccessful, because that's patently false. All saying it does is suggest you have a personal axe to grind.

I’ve never been a great fan of Mourinho but he’s our manager now so I’ll give him time to prove to me he can turn us into a successful team.
Some games have been bad and some results have been frustrating but despite JM’s reputation of playing boring football his Chelsea team in his first stint there were not particularly boring they were just efficiently successful. Let’s be realistic this Spurs team doesn’t have CBs as good as Terry and Cavaliho(?) or a midfield as good as Mekele(?) Essien and Lampard. Given that I feel we have to give him time to get the players who can successfully play his system.
Ive been supporting Spurs for 60 years and I’m tired and frustrated of watching us underachieving season after season. We’ve had teams full of great players but failed to win trophies. I’ve watched season after season as we start well, falloff around November through February then have a rally for the run in to give us all hope for the following season.
I’m from ‘Up North’ originally and Spurs are seen as typical “Southern Softies” and we are. We lack the mental toughness that trophy winning teams have and we’ve lacked it for a long long time - going as far back as the late ‘60s/early 70s. Different managers, different players but the same lack of mental toughness and the same lack of trophies. We as a fan base, and we have one of the largest best fan bases in Europe,especially when you consider our lack of success, deserve much better. This is what JM is up against and he recognizes this and regardless of not being his greatest fan I feel he deserves the time to try and change us into a successful team. If he can’t change our mindset I’m not sure anyone can. Success brings confidence and from confidence comes more free flowing football.
Maybe I’m being optimistic but I’m tired of MY TEAM having great players playing great football that I’m proud of and thrilled by(some of the time at least) but ending up pot less year after year. I want my eyes to see the glory of the cups at (new) White Hart Lane again before I leave this mortal coil. If that means Mourinhoball, bring it on.

I actually thought I could stomach it for a few trophies but honestly I am actually losing interest and not even nearly as pumped as I was before on match day (could be no fans as well though). Of course I watch because it’s my team but I feel the soul being sucked out of the team that I love by watching this anti football. Something needs to change quick because this is hard to stomach at the moment.

olliec said:

I actually thought I could stomach it for a few trophies but honestly I am actually losing interest and not even nearly as pumped as I was before on match day (could be no fans as well though). Of course I watch because it’s my team but I feel the soul being sucked out of the team that I love by watching this anti football. Something needs to change quick because this is hard to stomach at the moment.

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The Anti-Football agenda is boring. Just because we don’t play with a suicidal high line doesn’t mean we don’t play “football”.

We’ve not scored in just 3 of our 18 PL matches this season.

We also just scored 3 goals in our last match (and Son missed an open net that should’ve made it 4). Did you see Ndombele’s goal? Are you not entertained?

Despite being rooted at the bottom of the table only Chelsea has scored more than 3 goals against Sheffield United (4-1) in the PL this season.

We also have the joint third most goals scored this season.

“Anti-football”

Montalbano said:

The Anti-Football agenda is boring. Just because we don’t play with a suicidal high line doesn’t mean we don’t play “football”.

We’ve not scored in just 3 of our 18 PL matches this season.

We also just scored 3 goals in our last match (and Son missed an open net that should’ve made it 4). Did you see Ndombele’s goal? Are you not entertained?

Despite being rooted at the bottom of the table only Chelsea has scored more than 3 goals against Sheffield United (4-1) in the PL this season.

We also have the joint third most goals scored this season.

“Anti-football”

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I’m not talking about last game I am talking about the previous ones before. And to be honest if Ndombele didn’t score that wonderful goal I could see them equalising as we were starting to back off and let them into the game. Anyway I hope the Sheffield United is a wake up call to the players that we don’t need to sit back all the time, and that we can take more chances and risks. Also I would like to see Bale given some mins if we are 3-1 up Moura was awful when he came on.

If he can get another quality centre midfielder this summer then our play will be transformed. There’s still a hole in the middle of the team for someone like Carrick or Modric who can make us tick.

Every time we don't win there's always a moan thread that pops up lol

Shadydan said:

Every time we don't win there's always a moan thread that pops up lol

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Normally with a clichéd title.

People need to sack up! This isn’t RAWK

ostrov said:

Mourinho has not won anything with Spurs yet and it's boring as hell to watch. I ask myself: If we win the Carabao Cup seating deep with 20-80 % possession, will I want to replay that game? I don't think so. I will be happy if we win the Cup but excited I don't think so.

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When Jose eventually leaves in a few years and if/when we are sitting on a few trophies you're not gonna give a shit how they were won, all you're gonna care about is the fact that we have one them.

ostrov said:

Mourinho has not won anything with Spurs yet and it's boring as hell to watch. I ask myself: If we win the Carabao Cup seating deep with 20-80 % possession, will I want to replay that game? I don't think so. I will be happy if we win the Cup but excited I don't think so.

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I guess you're watching replays of all the entertaining games we've lost then?

absolute bobbins said:

Normally with a clichéd title.

People need to sack up! This isn’t RAWK

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Guess the thread title next time we drop points...

-We sold our soul for this?

-This isn't the Spurs legacy we know and love

-I can't take it anymore

Etc...

Shadydan said:

Guess the thread title next time we drop points...

-We sold our soul for this?

-This isn't the Spurs legacy we know and love

-I can't take it anymore

Etc...

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I can't find my toys, please help?

CowInAComa said:

No that literally isn't what I'm saying. I was dismissing the link between negative football and success by pointing out most successful teams play decent football.

I don't think playing easy on the eye football = success. (How could a spurs fan ever come to that conclusion.) But I also don't believe the opposite.

I was refering to the OP, and the general consensus that conclude that the price we pay for success must inevitably come from diminished entertainment.

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Fair enough, I've slightly misinterpreted what you're saying then. Apologies.

For what it's worth, I do think if we're going to win the league while we don't necessarily need to park the bus, we do need to stop conceding sloppy goals first and foremost. Maybe if the players proved they'd mastered the art of defence and stopped letting in silly goals, they'd then be given more licence to attack when they wanted to. The trouble at the moment is that even when the whole team is defending, we still concede sloppy goals against crap teams.

Obviously some might say that if we scored more up the other end that wouldn't matter but really when you look at it our goals scoring record is pretty good. We just keep drawing games because we let teams back into games. When Mourinho is attempting to shut up shop and we keep conceding late in games, that has to be at least part down to the players making mistakes or not doing what they're told within the system.

I just really, honestly don't get what peoples issue with our football is. It isn't anti-football, it isn't negative football, its football and at times both as good and as bad a football as anyone has been playing this year.

Our team, on paper, isn't as good as you all want it to be and yet everyone wants us to be playing with the way we did when we had better, more settled teams with completely different managers.

Honestly, can someone explain in a non-dramatic way without using hyperbole what the actual problem is?

So we sit too deep sometimes and have dropped 10 points form winning positions?

Are we not still a team in transition with less than world-class defenders and midfielders? Are we not doing better than we were last season while a lot of those around us are doing worse?

Shadydan said:

Guess the thread title next time we drop points...

-We sold our soul for this?

-This isn't the Spurs legacy we know and love

-I can't take it anymore

Etc...

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To dare is to don’t.

The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning.

We do enjoy bringing up 50+ year old quotes to discuss a point.

olliec said:

I’m not talking about last game I am talking about the previous ones before. And to be honest if Ndombele didn’t score that wonderful goal I could see them equalising as we were starting to back off and let them into the game. Anyway I hope the Sheffield United is a wake up call to the players that we don’t need to sit back all the time, and that we can take more chances and risks. Also I would like to see Bale given some mins if we are 3-1 up Moura was awful when he came on.

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But Tanguy did score that wonderful goal. People need to relax