The price is too high

[spud]

I don’t care.

Three words that I never thought I would say, or even think. But it’s true: I don’t care. What don’t I care about? Whether we win our next game. Whether we win the league. Whether we get into the CL. Whether we win the FA Cup or the Europa League. I never thought it would be possible for it to come to this, but it has.

I’m fairly old. So I’ve been following, supporting and watching Spurs for a long time. I’ve been at Wembley and the Lane when we’ve won trophies; I’ve seen us lose finals and semi-finals. I’ve seen us relegated and promoted. I’ve watched some great players and some shit ones, some good teams and bad ones. But I’ve never seen anything like this season’s Tottenham.

I want to win trophies. It’s embarrassing that we haven’t won anything since 2008 and that we haven’t won the Cup since 1991. It’s obvious to say that a club of our size should be competing for trophies most years and winning them on a fairly regular basis. It’s why Jose Mourinho is our manager. We don’t have to like him. We just have to respect his CV and trust in the idea that he will make our ‘nearly men’ of recent years into winners.

That’s what I did. I’ve never liked him and I don’t like him now. I think he’s a prick. But he’s our prick and we have to get behind him. So I supported his appointment and reasoned that I could put up with ‘Mourinho-ball’ because, as far as winning trophies is concerned, the end justifies the means. All-out attack hasn’t worked. Pragmatism, I told myself, is fine.

Only we aren’t watching pragmatism. Pragmatism is adapting to the prevailing circumstances in order to achieve the desired result. Pragmatism is adjusting how you play depending upon the opponent. In simplistic terms (and as a rule of thumb), pragmatism is attacking teams that are weaker than you and defending against those that are stronger. We aren’t pragmatic.

We have a ‘plan A’. If that isn’t working then……we stay with ‘plan A’. Plan A is simple: don’t concede a goal and rely on our world-class forwards to get one. Then don’t concede a goal. If we concede a goal, don’t panic. Don’t concede another one and hope that our world-class forwards get at least one goal; hopefully more than one. We don’t have any strategy of how to attack apart from ‘get it up to the forwards as fast as possible’.

The reason that I don’t like this is simple: it’s cowardice. We’re scared of losing. We are afraid of trying to win. Our objective is to avoid defeat – preferably with a clean sheet - and hope that we can score one or two more than the opposition.

I remember having a conversation with an Arsenal fan in the days before Wenger took over. He admitted that he wished his club played more attacking football but he justified the fact that they didn’t – the fact that they had been defence-first for as long as anybody could remember – by winning something now and again and never having been relegated. He knew there was a better way – it was three miles down the road – but didn’t want to admit it. That was the way things were. He lived with it.

Are we going to have to live with it? I can’t. If this is the price of winning trophies, then I’m sorry but the price is too high. We’re sacrificing what we are for the promise of a pot or two. We’re selling our soul. We’re abandoning our history because we haven’t won anything for a while. We’re in danger of not being Tottenham any more. Bill Nicholson will be turning in his grave.

I know most of you – if you’ve bothered to read this far – won’t agree. ‘Stupid old bastard’ you’ll say; ‘he’s talking bollocks. It’s all about winning’. Well, yes and no. Of course it’s about winning, but it’s about more than that. I realise it’s a cliché, but I’ll sign off with the famous quote from our famous captain.

"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom."

Audere est facere.

EDIT: first time I've ever got a full set of all thirteen ratings

 

[chinaman]

I don’t care.

Three words that I never thought I would say, or even think. But it’s true: I don’t care. What don’t I care about? Whether we win our next game. Whether we win the league. Whether we get into the CL. Whether we win the FA Cup or the Europa League. I never thought it would be possible for it to come to this, but it has.

I’m fairly old. So I’ve been following, supporting and watching Spurs for a long time. I’ve been at Wembley and the Lane when we’ve won trophies; I’ve seen us lose finals and semi-finals. I’ve seen us relegated and promoted. I’ve watched some great players and some shit ones, some good teams and bad ones. But I’ve never seen anything like this season’s Tottenham.

I want to win trophies. It’s embarrassing that we haven’t won anything since 2008 and that we haven’t won the Cup since 1991. It’s obvious to say that a club of our size should be competing for trophies most years and winning them on a fairly regular basis. It’s why Jose Mourinho is our manager. We don’t have to like him. We just have to respect his CV and trust in the idea that he will make our ‘nearly men’ of recent years into winners.

That’s what I did. I’ve never liked him and I don’t like him now. I think he’s a prick. But he’s our prick and we have to get behind him. So I supported his appointment and reasoned that I could put up with ‘Mourinho-ball’ because, as far as winning trophies is concerned, the end justifies the means. All-out attack hasn’t worked. Pragmatism, I told myself, is fine.

Only we aren’t watching pragmatism. Pragmatism is adapting to the prevailing circumstances in order to achieve the desired result. Pragmatism is adjusting how you play depending upon the opponent. In simplistic terms (and as a rule of thumb), pragmatism is attacking teams that are weaker than you and defending against those that are stronger. We aren’t pragmatic.

We have a ‘plan A’. If that isn’t working then……we stay with ‘plan A’. Plan A is simple: don’t concede a goal and rely on our world-class forwards to get one. Then don’t concede a goal. If we concede a goal, don’t panic. Don’t concede another one and hope that our world-class forwards get at least one goal; hopefully more than one. We don’t have any strategy of how to attack apart from ‘get it up to the forwards as fast as possible’.

The reason that I don’t like this is simple: it’s cowardice. We’re scared of losing. We are afraid of trying to win. Our objective is to avoid defeat – preferably with a clean sheet - and hope that we can score one or two more than the opposition.

I remember having a conversation with an Arsenal fan in the days before Wenger took over. He admitted that he wished his club played more attacking football but he justified the fact that they didn’t – the fact that they had been defence-first for as long as anybody could remember – by winning something now and again and never having been relegated. He knew there was a better way – it was three miles down the road – but didn’t want to admit it. That was the way things were. He lived with it.

Are we going to have to live with it? I can’t. If this is the price of winning trophies, then I’m sorry but the price is too high. We’re sacrificing what we are for the promise of a pot or two. We’re selling our soul. We’re abandoning our history because we haven’t won anything for a while. We’re in danger of not being Tottenham any more. Bill Nicholson will be turning in his grave.

I know most of you – if you’ve bothered to read this far – won’t agree. ‘Stupid old bastard’ you’ll say; ‘he’s talking bollocks. It’s all about winning’. Well, yes and no. Of course it’s about winning, but it’s about more than that. I realise it’s a cliché, but I’ll sign off with the famous quote from our famous captain.

"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom."

Audere est facere.

Here is another old bastard (I'm 73) who is in full agreement.

 

[pook]

I've been saying for years - decades - that I'll not complain so long as I'm given one of two things: 1) victories, or 2) attractive football. Both, or course, would be optimal, but either will suffice to keep me from moaning. Only negative football with bad results will draw complaints from me.

And so I won't complain now. We're close enough to competitive that we could still come up with things by season's end, and that would please me no end. But I will say this - not as a whinge, but simply stating a fact: I do not like watching us play. And I don't recall having ever felt that way before. I've often not liked aspects of our play, but I've always looked forward to seeing Spurs. I don't nearly as much these days.

I'm still on board. I love Spurs as much as ever. I'm as hopeful as ever. But I'm not enjoying it. I won't go so far as to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the opening post ...

... but it resonates.

edit: full disclosure - I, too, am old.

 

[beats1]

I find it funny how people are moaning about our style of play yet we have been shit ever since Dembele left

We had fallen apart before then but Dembele was kind of keeping it together

For the first time at the start of this season we were playing attacking football(yes we fucking were) since Dembele left

However it has been back to usual since the City game

The only difference between now and the last 2 and half years, the media and opposing fans are calling us boring, to which I lose respect for those who say Mourinho has us playing boring football.

I fell out love with spurs long before Mourinho came and our style of play but to say this is on him is WRONG and its the same people who believe the sun shines out of Poch's Arse

I have seen Tottenham under achieve for 12 years and because we dont spend as much as the big teams above us, people us that as an excuse for our lack of success. Yet our squad has fucking been amazing in that time and our players have been fucking amazing in that time

As I said before Poch and Harry both weren't good managers tactically hence why they didn't do well in the cup competitions

The reason why we are shit is because our spine is shit. We paid more for Sissoko than Wijnaldum and all does is run in to space and then struggle to make a pass, Winks (I dont think knows what he is) has been turned in to a DM even though he is shit there and our CB's outside of Toby are either still learning or fucking Mental

We never replaced, Toby, Jan, Victor and Moussa. We have been shit ever since, we can't string two passes together and keep playing it long because our CB's dont trust the CM's to move it forward

TL-DR - We were shit long before Mourinho, ever since Dembele and Wanyama left and our defenders stop defending, especially a fucking set piece.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

The way we’re playing Mourinho has to win a trophy, there is no other defense for what we are subjected too each week. I’ll stick it out for the season but if the trophy cabinet remains empty he won’t many left to defend him. Next season assuming fans are back it could get tasty watching our 11 cbs...

 

[spud]

I find it funny how people are moaning about our style of play yet we have been shit ever since Dembele left

We had fallen apart before then but Dembele was kind of keeping it together

For the first time at the start of this season we were playing attacking football(yes we fucking were) since Dembele left

However it has been back to usual since the City game

The only difference between now and the last 2 and half years, the media and opposing fans are calling us boring, to which I lose respect for those who say Mourinho has us playing boring football.

I fell out love with spurs long before Mourinho came and our style of play but to say this is on him is WRONG and its the same people who believe the sun shines out of Poch's Arse

I have seen Tottenham under achieve for 12 years and because we dont spend as much as the big teams above us, people us that as an excuse for our lack of success. Yet our squad has fucking been amazing in that time and our players have been fucking amazing in that time

As I said before Poch and Harry were both weren't good managers tactically hence why they didn't do well in the cup competitions

The reason why we are shit is because our spine is shit. We paid more for Sissoko than Wijnaldum and all does is run in to space and then struggle to make a pass, Winks (I dont think knows what he is) has been turned in to a DM even though he is shit there and our CB's outside of Toby are either still learning or fucking Mental

We never replaced, Toby, Jan, Victor and Moussa. We have been shit ever since who can't string two passes together and keep playing it long because our CB's dont trust the CM's to move it forward

TLR - We were shit long before Mourinho and ever since Dembele and Wanyama left and our defenders cant defend especially a fucking set piece.

I agree with much of what you say, but my point wasn't that we're shit. We've been shit numerous times in the past and will be again.

My point is that in the past - no matter how bad we have been - our approach was that we always tried to win. Now we want to win but we play, first and foremost, to avoid defeat. It's cowardly, and it isn't who we are.

 

[littlewilly]

I don’t care.

Three words that I never thought I would say, or even think. But it’s true: I don’t care. What don’t I care about? Whether we win our next game. Whether we win the league. Whether we get into the CL. Whether we win the FA Cup or the Europa League. I never thought it would be possible for it to come to this, but it has.

I’m fairly old. So I’ve been following, supporting and watching Spurs for a long time. I’ve been at Wembley and the Lane when we’ve won trophies; I’ve seen us lose finals and semi-finals. I’ve seen us relegated and promoted. I’ve watched some great players and some shit ones, some good teams and bad ones. But I’ve never seen anything like this season’s Tottenham.

I want to win trophies. It’s embarrassing that we haven’t won anything since 2008 and that we haven’t won the Cup since 1991. It’s obvious to say that a club of our size should be competing for trophies most years and winning them on a fairly regular basis. It’s why Jose Mourinho is our manager. We don’t have to like him. We just have to respect his CV and trust in the idea that he will make our ‘nearly men’ of recent years into winners.

That’s what I did. I’ve never liked him and I don’t like him now. I think he’s a prick. But he’s our prick and we have to get behind him. So I supported his appointment and reasoned that I could put up with ‘Mourinho-ball’ because, as far as winning trophies is concerned, the end justifies the means. All-out attack hasn’t worked. Pragmatism, I told myself, is fine.

Only we aren’t watching pragmatism. Pragmatism is adapting to the prevailing circumstances in order to achieve the desired result. Pragmatism is adjusting how you play depending upon the opponent. In simplistic terms (and as a rule of thumb), pragmatism is attacking teams that are weaker than you and defending against those that are stronger. We aren’t pragmatic.

We have a ‘plan A’. If that isn’t working then……we stay with ‘plan A’. Plan A is simple: don’t concede a goal and rely on our world-class forwards to get one. Then don’t concede a goal. If we concede a goal, don’t panic. Don’t concede another one and hope that our world-class forwards get at least one goal; hopefully more than one. We don’t have any strategy of how to attack apart from ‘get it up to the forwards as fast as possible’.

The reason that I don’t like this is simple: it’s cowardice. We’re scared of losing. We are afraid of trying to win. Our objective is to avoid defeat – preferably with a clean sheet - and hope that we can score one or two more than the opposition.

I remember having a conversation with an Arsenal fan in the days before Wenger took over. He admitted that he wished his club played more attacking football but he justified the fact that they didn’t – the fact that they had been defence-first for as long as anybody could remember – by winning something now and again and never having been relegated. He knew there was a better way – it was three miles down the road – but didn’t want to admit it. That was the way things were. He lived with it.

Are we going to have to live with it? I can’t. If this is the price of winning trophies, then I’m sorry but the price is too high. We’re sacrificing what we are for the promise of a pot or two. We’re selling our soul. We’re abandoning our history because we haven’t won anything for a while. We’re in danger of not being Tottenham any more. Bill Nicholson will be turning in his grave.

I know most of you – if you’ve bothered to read this far – won’t agree. ‘Stupid old bastard’ you’ll say; ‘he’s talking bollocks. It’s all about winning’. Well, yes and no. Of course it’s about winning, but it’s about more than that. I realise it’s a cliché, but I’ll sign off with the famous quote from our famous captain.

"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom."

Audere est facere.

Well said. I was going to write something in a similar vein.
I’ve been around since the days of Mullery, Greaves et al yet today, I find I’m supporting Tottenham ever so slightly less.

 

[beats1]

I agree with much of what you say, but my point wasn't that we're shit. We've been shit numerous times in the past and will be again.

My point is that in the past - no matter how bad we have been - our approach was that we always tried to win. Now we want to win but we play, first and foremost, to avoid defeat. It's cowardly, and it isn't who we are.

I don't believe that is true and think its selective looking at our last 30 mins

First Half we tend to attack and even against Fulham we were doing well after the break but we do suffer from a collapse near the end of the games we fall apart but people just remember us holding out

its been more evident recently especially since this season with Mourinho but that's always been a spurs problem.

I remember us being on top of the league for 15 mins against arsenal and dominating then deciding to defend and concede. Now this may been an isolated incident under poch

But I think our approach has been and is, we try to win, then shut up shop in the last 30mins to secure it and then concede from set piece once its too late to go for the win again

I look at our team and dont think the players from the Poch have the legs anymore outside of Son after 3 years of running out of their skins(that said not many left) and that the replacements haven't been great

 

[coffers]

Would be interesting to hear the atmosphere if we had a full house at home as its taking me back to the GG years. I remember being at Coventry away when fans were fighting over him during a game, i sat through the Fulham game just bored and it feels a lifetime ago since this same team destroyed United away. I get the desire to win something and we may yet do but will that change how we play? It was mentioned above but just imagine if we had a midfielder who could actually play football instead of Sissoko or a defender who could play with intelligence instead of Dier..I get why they are liked by some as they will try all day but just had enough of watching another Dier long ball go out of play. We have forwarded line that is up there with the best of European football but are left just trying to catch teams on a counter .

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Couldn't this have just been posted in the Mourinho thread? I mean it's the same rhetoric that has been now been banded about since his first few months in charge?

Also, when are some of you going to stop posting that same worn out old shite from an era that doesn't reflect the era we're now watching football played in?

Just as a side note Leeds are getting bounced weekly ... Dunno if I want to lose to a team who supposedly is afraid to play football, 3-0 no less.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Watch us go win 4-0 today

 

[buckley]

What I cannot take is I cannot see improvement or even signs that things are getting better.
The ultimate test will be is when covid is over will people pay to watch this dross .
It comes across as tho they (the players ) seem to think carry on like this and the results will come in the meantime we are all bored to the point where you can't be asked to sit thru this miss mash of boring football where you are relying on Son And Kane far too much .
Mourhino the man if you take away the eye gouging and the Willian Transfer is quite an affable likeable person .
If we were and I no we wont win the league and a couple of cups would you be happy to renew your season ticket next year .
My first year of attending was 1951 I have been tested O'niel / AVB / Graham / But always stayed loyal so I have to ask myself Would I pay to watch this dross and at 76 years of age getting to and from the ground is a real task and I have to say I just might have to say pass as I am not a masochist and its too much to ask to pay to watch this mish mash which is neither completely defensive and its certainly not attacking .

 

[HodisGawd]

I sympathise with your point. Winning isn't everything and there seems to me to be a section of our fanbase who in the last 10 years which has gone win crazed. They want to win something, anything, at any cost. They think winning the League Cup will solve everything. They think football is only about winning silverware. That's not Tottenham though. To me football is about enjoyment and a sense of belonging. If I just wanted to win I would support City. But I want my team to win my team's way.

But... Mourinho has us in a final. We can win something and it might not be boring then. Let's see the season out and then judge him.

 

[DanoCanuck]

Wow, tough crowd in here! I'm 50 "something" (lol) and was first exposed to the Spurs in Canada when I was just a kid and the CBC regularly covered Premier League. What drew me to Spurs was the fans and the stadium excitement. Couldn't get enough but when I moved to the states for work their coverage of Euro football was garbage and I lost touch. I still need to find a good way to watch matches even though coverage here is getting better. VPN maybe?

Anyway, I know the Spurs haven't loaded the trophy cabinet but man, how can fans just all of a sudden become non-fans? If the ownership support was lacking or the play was crap maybe I can see being disgruntled but it's a first class club. I know I'm a newbie and even though the results haven't been top of the league just look at the clubs who've been mired in mediocrity! Tottenham is ALWAYS in the top third of the league. There's a heck of a lot of clubs that would gladly trade places.

I'm personally not sure about Mourinho. After watching the Amazon series I don't know if I like his style but the Spurs have a nice blend of young and experienced players. It's not going to take much to get a spark and the worlds our stage! Cheers...

 

[mumfordspur]

What I don't understand is that many on here have posted that the management team were shouting at the clowns to attack (I think it was after we went 1 up).
There seems to be a disconnect somewhere.

 

[daveduvet]

I don’t care.

Three words that I never thought I would say, or even think. But it’s true: I don’t care. What don’t I care about? Whether we win our next game. Whether we win the league. Whether we get into the CL. Whether we win the FA Cup or the Europa League. I never thought it would be possible for it to come to this, but it has.

I’m fairly old. So I’ve been following, supporting and watching Spurs for a long time. I’ve been at Wembley and the Lane when we’ve won trophies; I’ve seen us lose finals and semi-finals. I’ve seen us relegated and promoted. I’ve watched some great players and some shit ones, some good teams and bad ones. But I’ve never seen anything like this season’s Tottenham.

I want to win trophies. It’s embarrassing that we haven’t won anything since 2008 and that we haven’t won the Cup since 1991. It’s obvious to say that a club of our size should be competing for trophies most years and winning them on a fairly regular basis. It’s why Jose Mourinho is our manager. We don’t have to like him. We just have to respect his CV and trust in the idea that he will make our ‘nearly men’ of recent years into winners.

That’s what I did. I’ve never liked him and I don’t like him now. I think he’s a prick. But he’s our prick and we have to get behind him. So I supported his appointment and reasoned that I could put up with ‘Mourinho-ball’ because, as far as winning trophies is concerned, the end justifies the means. All-out attack hasn’t worked. Pragmatism, I told myself, is fine.

Only we aren’t watching pragmatism. Pragmatism is adapting to the prevailing circumstances in order to achieve the desired result. Pragmatism is adjusting how you play depending upon the opponent. In simplistic terms (and as a rule of thumb), pragmatism is attacking teams that are weaker than you and defending against those that are stronger. We aren’t pragmatic.

We have a ‘plan A’. If that isn’t working then……we stay with ‘plan A’. Plan A is simple: don’t concede a goal and rely on our world-class forwards to get one. Then don’t concede a goal. If we concede a goal, don’t panic. Don’t concede another one and hope that our world-class forwards get at least one goal; hopefully more than one. We don’t have any strategy of how to attack apart from ‘get it up to the forwards as fast as possible’.

The reason that I don’t like this is simple: it’s cowardice. We’re scared of losing. We are afraid of trying to win. Our objective is to avoid defeat – preferably with a clean sheet - and hope that we can score one or two more than the opposition.

I remember having a conversation with an Arsenal fan in the days before Wenger took over. He admitted that he wished his club played more attacking football but he justified the fact that they didn’t – the fact that they had been defence-first for as long as anybody could remember – by winning something now and again and never having been relegated. He knew there was a better way – it was three miles down the road – but didn’t want to admit it. That was the way things were. He lived with it.

Are we going to have to live with it? I can’t. If this is the price of winning trophies, then I’m sorry but the price is too high. We’re sacrificing what we are for the promise of a pot or two. We’re selling our soul. We’re abandoning our history because we haven’t won anything for a while. We’re in danger of not being Tottenham any more. Bill Nicholson will be turning in his grave.

I know most of you – if you’ve bothered to read this far – won’t agree. ‘Stupid old bastard’ you’ll say; ‘he’s talking bollocks. It’s all about winning’. Well, yes and no. Of course it’s about winning, but it’s about more than that. I realise it’s a cliché, but I’ll sign off with the famous quote from our famous captain.

"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom."

Audere est facere.

Good post. And there’s definitely a lot of agreement from me. I remember reading something Sonny said along the lines of ‘with no fan noise, we can’t pretend to not hear the manager’s instructions from the sidelines’ - in other words the team has to do exactly what they’re told: rigid instructions, no creative fluidity, just cold hard logical rules. For me, this is shown in our play; a mechanical approach... And yet, we find ourselves in a final and the top four if we win today. I’m no longer excited by the prospect of watching us tv, I seem to be doing it out of habit.

 

[Spursmatty87]

I think Jose is lucky there aren’t any fans in the place but like others have said I think this goes a long way back before Jose.

The frightening thing is that this meant take a couple of years for Jose(or anyone) to put right, and in that time we’ll of seen Kane and Son past their peak. So even then we maybe a more complete team however the Fw’s may not be on the current levels.

 

[Lo Amo Speroni]

If you gave me the football we played in our last seaon at WHL every season, I would be a happy man.

*We need the crowds back*

 

[SPURSLIFE]

Here is another old bastard (I'm 73) who is in full agreement.

I'm an even older old bastard (81) and I am also in full agreement

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

Would be interesting to hear the atmosphere if we had a full house at home as its taking me back to the GG years. I remember being at Coventry away when fans were fighting over him during a game, i sat through the Fulham game just bored and it feels a lifetime ago since this same team destroyed United away. I get the desire to win something and we may yet do but will that change how we play? It was mentioned above but just imagine if we had a midfielder who could actually play football instead of Sissoko or a defender who could play with intelligence instead of Dier..I get why they are liked by some as they will try all day but just had enough of watching another Dier long ball go out of play. We have forwarded line that is up there with the best of European football but are left just trying to catch teams on a counter .

I was also at that Coventry game, i think was 2000-1 season and we lost 2 - 0?. The atmosphere was toxic and not long after GG was sacked and replaced by Hoddle. The difference between then and now is that the GG team was shite, whereas todays squad with the right tactics, strategy and application has all the ability to be successful and play decent football.