Harry Winks - Leicester City

Joshua said:

The Madrid game at home he was very good and then who else did he “run the game” against at Champions League level? Spurs fans use that game like Arsenal fans used to with Wilshere against Barcelona to try and make a case for them. It’s not relevant anymore. He’s regressed as a player whilst his sense of entitlement has grown. Clearly not someone you can rely on when the going gets tough. Which may be a symptom of his development as well as his personality. Simply has to be moved on in the summer. He’s one of the non-negotiables that have to go.

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Madrid away was equally as good in that same season. I'm sure there are other examples but my memory sucks so I can't pretend I can call them all out.

The point is that he is clearly capable of playing at a high level. I didn't say he was elite or anything like that, just merely that I refuse to accept that he's as shit as a lot of our fans would have people believe. Simply not true.

I don't disagree with anything else you've said. He's sulking and that's a clear character flaw that he either needs to mature out of or he will certainly never be a top level player, which he clearly believes himself he can be. I would imagine he will be sold in the summer unless Jose gets sacked in which case I don't think he would push to leave.

As some others have said, he thrives more in a possession based style where he can recycle the ball quickly and efficiently. He doesn't suit the current style or system under Mourinho so if a new manager comes in then I'd be happy for him to stay as a squad player.

DCSPUR said:

Tottenham 1-0 Manchester City: Champions League player ratings

Harry Winks was hugely impressive for Spurs, while it was a disappointing night for Kyle Walker and Sergio Agüero

www.theguardian.com

Harry Winks 8 First start in over a month, made light of lack of match fitness. Tidy on ball. Standing ovation when withdrawn.

Funny how every time baldy is under pressure there are a host of leaks and bits of info that lead others to be the focus of fans ire - from Poch to Jose to Winks

The buck stops with levy - frankly wish Joe Lewis would tell Baldy to stick to the real estate side and bring in some actual talent on the football side.

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OK. I usually do my best to not be confrontational BUT, what the actual fuck are you on about?.

The whole world knows you don't like Levy, which is fair enough. But bringing him up & weirdly implying it's his fault that Winks seems to be a bit of a dick is, quite frankly fucking odd.

The word "reaching" springs to mind.

He’s had a few good games but the majority of them haven’t been good enough. At any other top club he would of probably been replaced by now. Home grown or not.

The Madrid matches can't used as valid arguments for Winks. He's never consistently played at that level and there's no indication that he's heading in that direction.

I don't care about the rumors to be fair. We will never know for certain how the inner relations at the club are, it's all just hearsay and rumors. What's not hidden in cloak are Harry Winks abilities because whenever he plays we see a drastic drop in quality compared to our regular starters and unfortunately that's been the case for the majority of his career. On merit alone he's just not good enough.

Haddock said:

The Madrid matches can't used as valid arguments for Winks. He's never consistently played at that level and there's no indication that he's heading in that direction.

I don't care about the rumors to be fair. We will never know for certain how the inner relations at the club are, it's all just hearsay and rumors. What's not hidden in cloak are Harry Winks abilities because whenever he plays we see a drastic drop in quality compared to our regular starters and unfortunately that's been the case for the majority of his career. On merit alone he's just not good enough.

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its also worth noting that during the time of those matches Madrid were in quite a bit of turmoil losing matches in La Liga on a regular basis. That’s not to take anything away from our performances in those games but it’s really no different to Zagreb players pointing to the fact that they dominated us which is true but doesn’t take in to account our off field problems.

and before anyone points out that madrid went on to win the champions league that season my post clearly references “at the time of our group matches”

Monkey boy said:

its also worth noting that during the time of those matches Madrid were in quite a bit of turmoil losing matches in La Liga on a regular basis. That’s not to take anything away from our performances in those games but it’s really no different to Zagreb players pointing to the fact that they dominated us which is true but doesn’t take in to account our off field problems.

and before anyone points out that madrid went on to win the champions league that season my post clearly references “at the time of our group matches”

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So our result against them wasn't that great because quite clearly they were crap, cheers mate - way to ruin things!

JonnySpurs said:

Madrid away was equally as good in that same season. I'm sure there are other examples but my memory sucks so I can't pretend I can call them all out.

The point is that he is clearly capable of playing at a high level. I didn't say he was elite or anything like that, just merely that I refuse to accept that he's as shit as a lot of our fans would have people believe. Simply not true.

I don't disagree with anything else you've said. He's sulking and that's a clear character flaw that he either needs to mature out of or he will certainly never be a top level player, which he clearly believes himself he can be. I would imagine he will be sold in the summer unless Jose gets sacked in which case I don't think he would push to leave.

As some others have said, he thrives more in a possession based style where he can recycle the ball quickly and efficiently. He doesn't suit the current style or system under Mourinho so if a new manager comes in then I'd be happy for him to stay as a squad player.

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The problem isn’t that he believes he can be a top player, it’s that he believes he IS a top player and it’s no use when we are happy when clearly he isn’t happy to stay as a squad player. all the problems started when he is demanding playing time that isn’t deserved by merit but for some reason he think he does without actually putting in the effort to evolve as a player.

The only system he would thrive in is a system that doesn’t place any defensive or attacking responsibility on him, where all he’s required to do is to pass the ball sideways and backwards.

Yeah, this is a player who has never played well in a PL game. He played his part in a good team performance v Madrid (one game!) but can anyone remember him ever performing in the PL for us? For me he's as forgettable as Carrol (who I think is actually better on the ball) and the like.

He's just such a nothing player, he isn't a progressive passer, his shooting is frankly embarassing, he never creates, the defensive side of his game is non existent. All he does is pass sideaways and back, he's a coward who shirks responsibility on the pitch. Can't wait to see the back of him, it's long long overdue. He's been stealing a living at Spurs and I have no idea how he has lasted as long as he has, and to hear he thinks he should be our playmaker, he's also deluded too. It's been in evidence since he first broke into the squad that he wasn't good enough.

He'll only play regularly at a lower half PL side, that's it. The drop off in quality when he plays for us is unacceptable.

Shadydan said:

So our result against them wasn't that great because quite clearly they were crap, cheers mate - way to ruin things!

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At no point did I say or imply this. I even went out of my way to state that “don’t take anything away from our performance”

Tucker said:

I’m not gonna hang the lad just yet. But it’s pretty telling that he was dropped for Devine last night imo.

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I think it will be wise for everyone too keep their powder dry in this late stage jose period. We are probably going to hear lots more drama and it's hard to know what to believe.

Monkey boy said:

At no point did I say or imply this. I even went out of my way to state that “don’t take anything away from our performance”

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Therefore you can't take anything away from Winks' performance then

cjsimba said:

So is it just Winks who Jose and Hugo have been referring to in terms of the bad attitude?

or have we had confirmation from any ITK on any others? Dele? Dier? Sissoko? All still named on the bench yesterday so not sure what that means...

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I've analysed the situation and the people that Hugo was referring to in terms of bad attitude seems to be Winks + any player each individual poster doesn't rate.

Shadydan said:

Therefore you can't take anything away from Winks' performance then

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I’m not, I’m just stating that people are referencing the madrid games because of the name Real Madrid, I’m merely pointing out that the madrid team we faced that night wasn’t exactly firing on all cylinders and had big problems at the time.

for the record yes Harry Winks did play very well that night. He also played well in the home defeat to Barcelona a year later.

Monkey boy said:

I’m not, I’m just stating that people are referencing the madrid games because of the name Real Madrid, I’m merely pointing out that the madrid team we faced that night wasn’t exactly firing on all cylinders and had big problems at the time.

for the record yes Harry Winks did play very well that night. He also played well in the home defeat to Barcelona a year later.

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We're going round in circles, if you admit that Madrid weren't all that then that takes away the achievement of us beating them, if you're saying that they well then that shouldn't take away Winks' performance that night, ultimately I have no idea what your point is?

cjsimba said:

So is it just Winks who Jose and Hugo have been referring to in terms of the bad attitude?

or have we had confirmation from any ITK on any others? Dele? Dier? Sissoko? All still named on the bench yesterday so not sure what that means...

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I think it would be clearer after the internationals, when we have son and lamela back, anyone isn’t in the team then probably will be the ones Hugo was referring to, I have to admit that I was surprised that sissoko isn’t one of them actually.

nico97531 said:

The problem isn’t that he believes he can be a top player, it’s that he believes he IS a top player

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A good point and probably true.

nico97531 said:

The only system he would thrive in is a system that doesn’t place any defensive or attacking responsibility on him, where all he’s required to do is to pass the ball sideways and backwards.

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I don't personally agree with this and don't think it's fair. He often looks to pass forwards and making him out to be the 2nd coming of David Batty is harsh IMO. Poch liked Winks and played him regularly. He'd become used to that and has found it impossible to cope with that Mourinho doesn't see him the same way. It's not the first time a player has fallen out of favour when the manager has changed and it won't be the last.

Something is going to give in the summer and that will no doubt determine whether he stays or leaves.

JonnySpurs said:

A good point and probably true.



I don't personally agree with this and don't think it's fair. He often looks to pass forwards and making him out to be the 2nd coming of David Batty is harsh IMO. Poch liked Winks and played him regularly. He'd become used to that and has found it impossible to cope with that Mourinho doesn't see him the same way. It's not the first time a player has fallen out of favour when the manager has changed and it won't be the last.

Something is going to give in the summer and that will no doubt determine whether he stays or leaves.

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Yes I agreed what I said is a bit harsh, he did pass forward on occasions, just that I am more disappointed with him being a supposed Spurs fan but is putting himself above our club and is creating a problem in the dressing room when the only person to blame for his lack of game time is himself, I mean he was given ample opportunities by Jose to stake a claim.

Harry reminds me of Tom Huddlestone in that he would have thrived by going to Italy or Spain rather than seeing out his career at Spurs.
He's a damned fine passer of the ball and with both feet which is rare even at this level. His entire game is built around moving the ball and the opposition.
He's not physical enough to play as a holding midfielder or as a pivot which means he is useless to Jose. He's been horribly exposed this past year and I'm not surprised he's been affected.
This rumour mill is typical of the way a player gets undermined when they are struggling and peddling these rumours says more about us than the player.
I had hoped he might have gone on loan to Valencia as he had the option to do but any possession based team on the continent could do worse than him. Passing sideways and backwards is actually what you do when you are trying to manipulate an opponent and exactly what we used to do with Poch where all our penetration came from moving the ball from flank to flank, waiting for the opponent to open up, lunge rashly or turn their back on a danger man as the ball moves away from them.
I loved those Madrid games. They couldn't pick him up and as they tried to press him centrally he'd calmly push the ball out the flank and start another phase of attack. We were absolutely dominant but we rarely tried it in the PL where we had physical domination from Dembele to fall back on.
It's worth noting that he also shone as a No.10 for England. He was sorely missed for his calmness and ball retention, so vital in internationals, when he was injured as he frequently was.
I thought he would push on and develop into a No.8 but he doesn't have the physique or speed to do that but to rubbish him because he can't play like Hojbjerg is to overlook what he can do. If we stick with Jose, he needs to go but, despite his current form and the amount of time passed since he was last able to show what he can do, there will be managers all over the continent who will happily take a punt on him.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if those who want him out are the same who wanted Poch out or Jose to replace him. Maybe that comes from a frustration at not winning anything with Poch that makes us resent possession based football and, by extension, a possession player. Who knows. We've had some amazing moments with him and he's Spurs. He deserves a little more respect than he's getting right now.

kremlyn said:

He deserves a little more respect than he's getting right now.

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Not if he is being a disruptive influence over the team he doesn't (ITK says that he is!)

Gingernut said:

Not if he is being a disruptive influence over the team he doesn't (ITK says that he is!)

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And that's gospel is it?