Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

Duke of Northumberland · Feb 21, 2023

wrd said:
It genuinely shocks me that for a board that insists that spending money isn't a direct correlation with success that we don't have the best scouting department in the world. I mean this earnestly, it perfectly aligns with their values, how have we not got the quite literal absolute best and most advanced scouting and data analysis team on the planet when our model is clear.

We have the absolute best training ground and infrastructure to attract the best youths, lets see if it works over time. I think data on players is pretty universal and accessible to all clubs these days, its how you get them to come...

Trix · Feb 21, 2023

Duke of Northumberland said:
We have the absolute best training ground and infrastructure to attract the best youths, lets see if it works over time. I think data on players is pretty universal and accessible to all clubs these days, its how you get them to come...

The data? I don't care for it too much anyway in senior football but as far as youth players are concerned I absolutely hate it personally. The amount of kids that get passed by completely or released too early because "the data says" drives me mad. I don't care how much data you have, a good scout could tell you within 5 minutes of watching a kid whether they were worth a serious look or not, without reading, and even regardless of their stats or scouting profile on a database. Too many clubs rely on stuff like this nowadays, but trust me it's not how you find the hidden gems that go on to set the game alight.

Dakes · Feb 21, 2023

Trix said:
The data? I don't care for it too much anyway in senior football but as far as youth players are concerned I absolutely hate it personally. The amount of kids that get passed by completely or released too early because "the data says" drives me mad. I don't care how much data you have, a good scout could tell you within 5 minutes of watching a kid whether they were worth a serious look or not, without reading, and even regardless of their stats or scouting profile on a database. Too many clubs rely on stuff like this nowadays, but trust me it's not how you find the hidden gems that go on to set the game alight.

Probably how Pleaty scouted Dele for Spurs.

mil1lion · Feb 21, 2023

dagraham said:
If Poch was to come back the first thing we’d need to do is go all in on James Maddison.

And if we can't get Maddison then get Paqueta from relegated West Ham

McFlash · Feb 21, 2023

mil1lion said:
And if we can't get Maddison then get Paqueta from relegated West Ham

I've not watched much of West Ham this season, has he been any good?
He didn't play against us, iirc but I suppose it's hard to judge anyone playing under Moyes this season, they've been pretty terrible by all accounts.

djhotspur · Feb 21, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Was just thinking for all the talk of Conte improving players, has he had the best team in the league everywhere he's actually been a success?

His Chelsea team had two world class players in peak Hazard and Kante, along with other fantastic players like Courtois, Fabregas, Costa and Matic. It probably was, pound for pound, the best squad in the league at the time and most of them had won the league already 2 seasons before. We had a very good team but no proven league winners like they had, while Liverpool and City were in seasons of transition. Things pretty quickly fell apart once they had European distractions, City stepped it up under Pep and he lost his one reliable CF in Costa.

At Inter they certainly had the best squad by the time he won the league. Invested big in the likes of Lukaku, Sanchez, Eriksen, etc plus had Hakimi, Martinez, Barella, Bastoni, etc. Juve were struggling under Pirlo and Milan weren't yet at the races.

I guess his most lauded success was his first season at Juve where he won them the title after coming 7th the previous season. But once again they had no Europe to worry about and a fucking great squad: Buffon, Chiellini, Bonnucci, Pirlo, Luca Toni, Del Piero, Vidal, Vucinic - that squad was absolutely stacked with talent.

Like, he's clearly an excellent manager and not everyone would've achieved what he did at those clubs, but it does put things into perspective a bit. Was he ever really going to elevate our squad in the way we were initially hoping without us buying half a squad of world class players? And should we need to buy half a squad of world class players for a manager to succeed?

Yeah but you could argue none of those inter players were seen as anywhere near the calibre they’ve become until conte got hold of them.
Barella had no where near the output he had under conte, Bastoni was a completely unknown young talent who conte turned into a monster, hakimi was sold by Real Madrid for a reason….

IamSpurtacus · Feb 21, 2023

Timberwolf said:
There are many managers that can overachieve with squads and don't NEED world class players to succeed. Those managers might not win the league, but they'd probably have been more suited to a club like Spurs

That's what i find so sad. It's speaks to a poverty of ambition.

The board would rather "over-achieve" with a bunch of average players sprinkled with a couple of stand outs, and not win the league, than make the requisite investment to actually have a shot at winning a major trophy

Shanks · Feb 21, 2023

Duke of Northumberland said:
We have the absolute best training ground and infrastructure to attract the best youths, lets see if it works over time. I think data on players is pretty universal and accessible to all clubs these days, its how you get them to come...

Yet Chelsea, city and even palace seem to attract better youths

Shanks · Feb 21, 2023

Trix said:
The data? I don't care for it too much anyway in senior football but as far as youth players are concerned I absolutely hate it personally. The amount of kids that get passed by completely or released too early because "the data says" drives me mad. I don't care how much data you have, a good scout could tell you within 5 minutes of watching a kid whether they were worth a serious look or not, without reading, and even regardless of their stats or scouting profile on a database. Too many clubs rely on stuff like this nowadays, but trust me it's not how you find the hidden gems that go on to set the game alight.

Louder and even louder!!
The more youth football Ypy watch, you come to realise that making it to the top, is a huge slice of luck and a lot on who you know!

Timberwolf · Feb 21, 2023

IamSpurtacus said:
That's what i find so sad. It's speaks to a poverty of ambition.

The board would rather "over-achieve" with a bunch of average players sprinkled with a couple of stand outs, and not win the league, than make the requisite investment to actually have a shot at winning a major trophy

Yeah but even with all the ambition in the world we're not exactly in a position to go and sign a bunch of the worlds best players. There are only about 4 or 5 clubs in the world that can afford to sign ready made superstars and we're not one of them.

If we're ever going to win the league it will be by doing what Liverpool did and signing players in the bracket of Salah, Mane, Allison, VVD and Fabinho who would then become world class, rather than literally signing the worlds best players. I'd say that's currently not too far away from what we're trying to do at the moment, but in the Poch era especially we aimed far too low.

Shoulda defo splashed out on a CB for Conte, though.

Bluto Blutarsky · Feb 21, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Yeah but even with all the ambition in the world we're not exactly in a position to go and sign a bunch of the worlds best players. There are only about 4 or 5 clubs in the world that can afford to sign ready made superstars and we're not one of them.

If we're ever going to win the league it will be by doing what Liverpool did and signing players in the bracket of Salah, Mane, Allison, VVD and Fabinho who would then become world class, rather than literally signing the worlds best players. I'd say that's currently not too far away from what we're trying to do at the moment, but in the Poch era especially we aimed far too low.

Shoulda defo splashed out on a CB for Conte, though.

Didn't Liverpool spend record amounts on a GK and CB?

Timberwolf · Feb 21, 2023

Bluto Blutarsky said:
Didn't Liverpool spend record amounts on a GK and CB?

Yeah but the only reason those players were even available was because they played for Roma and Southampton respectively. If they were the current 'world best' and already playing for bigger clubs they'd either have been worth significantly more or not for sale.

And fee doesn't always equal quality: Kepa was worth a similar fee and he's nowhere near as good as Alisson, while Coutinho went for a record breaking fee and he stank.

Bluto Blutarsky · Feb 21, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Yeah but the only reason those players were even available was because they played for Roma and Southampton respectively. If they were the current 'world best' and already playing bigger clubs they'd either have been worth significantly more or not for sale.

But isn't that what we need to do to compete at the top - sign the top players, for top money, who are at a slightly lower playing level?

That, to me, is where we fall short. Not every player needs to be at that level - but we have shopped at the Bentancur/Kulusevski/Romero level - we need a couple of players at that next level higher to push on.

In another year, we will also have to replace the productivity of players like Kane and Son - on top of Lloris/CCB/LCB.

That is still an expensive upgrade - particularly if we do not sell Kane this summer (or sign him to an extension).

IamSpurtacus · Feb 21, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Yeah but even with all the ambition in the world we're not exactly in a position to go and sign a bunch of the worlds best players. There are only about 4 or 5 clubs in the world that can afford to sign ready made superstars and we're not one of them.

If we're ever going to win the league it will be by doing what Liverpool did and signing players in the bracket of Salah, Mane, Allison, VVD and Fabinho who would then become world class, rather than literally signing the worlds best players. I'd say that's currently not too far away from what we're trying to do at the moment, but in the Poch era especially we aimed far too low.

Shoulda defo splashed out on a CB for Conte, though.

This is where the conversation is so tiresome (not a dig at you at all).

We've spent plenty, but we've spent it badly.

You also hamstring your manager when you try and eek out pennies and fail to bring in the needed players quickly, leaving everything to the end of the window as you "negotiate", or "just miss out" on a top target and offer the manager a second rate / cheaper alternative that won't get the job done (Clarke, Sess, Rodon, Aurier, Spence, Bergwijn, N'Jie - it's an endless list)

Until that, or specifically Levy, is changed, we won't be able to compete, even if we have the money - which I believe we do. Just look at Arsenal - they've managed it. They haven't bought the best in the world at every position - they bought the players the manager wanted.

Anyway, I'm boring myself, so that's the last i'm going to post on the matter

Timberwolf · Feb 21, 2023

Bluto Blutarsky said:
But isn't that what we need to do to compete at the top - sign the top players, for top money, who are at a slightly lower playing level?

That, to me, is where we fall short. Not every player needs to be at that level - but we have shopped at the Bentancur/Kulusevski/Romero level - we need a couple of players at that next level higher to push on.

In another year, we will also have to replace the productivity of players like Kane and Son - on top of Lloris/CCB/LCB.

That is still an expensive upgrade - particularly if we do not sell Kane this summer (or sign him to an extension).

Yeah totally agree.

We tried with Ndombele and Lo Celso and got it wrong, while almost all the other signings in that era were cheap knock-offs.

My point was more that if Conte wants or needs us to go and sign the likes of Casemiro like United have done, that ain't happening at Spurs. No way we're buying ready made winners and offering them 300k+ a week.

mil1lion · Feb 21, 2023

McFlash said:
I've not watched much of West Ham this season, has he been any good?
He didn't play against us, iirc but I suppose it's hard to judge anyone playing under Moyes this season, they've been pretty terrible by all accounts.

Pretty much, he's not a good fit at all for them and neither is Scamacca. If we were to return to the high press possession football I think Paqueta would be good. I got a feeling Poch would keep Lo Celso though.

C0YS · Feb 21, 2023

McFlash said:
I've not watched much of West Ham this season, has he been any good?
He didn't play against us, iirc but I suppose it's hard to judge anyone playing under Moyes this season, they've been pretty terrible by all accounts.

Hes not bad but has always been more style than substance. I wouldnt say he is a youtube player but not far off one. Way down the pecking order for me. Maddison would be tops. We dont need more tricks and flicks we need someone who can reliably launch out attacks. Even someone like Mason Mount if Chelsea want rid wouldnt be a bad shout for me.

IamSpurtacus · Feb 21, 2023

wrd said:
It genuinely shocks me that for a board that insists that spending money isn't a direct correlation with success that we don't have the best scouting department in the world. I mean this earnestly, it perfectly aligns with their values, how have we not got the quite literal absolute best and most advanced scouting and data analysis team on the planet when our model is clear.

How many really good DoF's have we had?

We had Michael Edwards before he went to Liverpool and built them the arguably the best scouting team in the world with a great track record

You can only build that if the CEO/Chairman is willing to empower you

e: for clarity - didn't mean to imply ME was DoF - but he was our data guy and left to build liverpool's scouting dept. Thanks @spurs9 !

spurs9 · Feb 21, 2023

IamSpurtacus said:
How many really good DoF's have we had? We had Michael Edwards before he went to Liverpool and built them the arguably the best scouting team in the world with a great track record

You can only build that if the CEO/Chairman is willing to empower you

He wasn't a Dof here, he was the chief Analyst, which he also was at Liverpool for 2 years before getting promoted.

Duke of Northumberland · Feb 21, 2023

Shanks said:
Yet Chelsea, city and even palace seem to attract better youths

Well the Devine, White cohort is coming through so maybe that’s the first to show- Chelsea and City obvious pulling power until recently. Don’t know about Palace - have they got great kids?

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