Next Manager Watch

Jules77 · Apr 22, 2023

danielneeds said:
The guy was twerking for Chelsea and sees himself and Real and PSG. Even if he somehow ended up here it’ll most likely be another manager who feels like he’s doing us a favour. Just don’t see us aligning with him.

I get what you’re saying.
One of the more interesting elements of the levy Cambridge interview was that he doesn’t really see the requirement for long term managers. Seems he sees that as a very English bias and that he appreciates the European model of switching managers frequently and not worrying. So with that in mind, he’s be interested in Julian?

Beefyboy · Apr 22, 2023

ljinko888 said:
Alasdair Gold put a video out tonight and says that what he's heard in recent weeks is that Nagelsmann is not particularly interested in joining Spurs

I don't think he actually said that specifically. He said that when he's asked around noone near the situation has said that Nag is interested....as opposed to he's directly heard he isn't interested.

May well be he isn't, but slightly different.

cockerel downunder · Apr 22, 2023

I’d be gutted to f poch went to Chelsea, but wouldn’t blame him. His family is settled in London and if spurs don’t want him back there’s only do many other choices.
What surprises me is that chelsea want him. I can’t imagine their fans being too enthusiastic given his spurs history, and the fact they never really liked potter can’t have helped last time.

I also don’t think he’s a good fit given he likes a small squad and doesn’t like too much interference from above. The homegrown talent that he might have worked best with are likely to be sold off to balance the books.

bug his charisma and good coaching could still see him make a success of it.

Archibald&Crooks · Apr 22, 2023

OK as pointless as it is, it's obviously time to get back on track.

If you really must, here's a thread where you can offer up your thoughts on Poch to Chelsea

Mauricio Pochettino

If he ends up at Cfc can we blame levy for letting it happen ? Asking for some friends.

www.spurscommunity.co.uk

Then we can go back to using this thread for whoever, as their turn comes back around

HedgieSpur · Apr 22, 2023

jolsnogross said:
What is that reasoning then? Not appointing him for perceived emotion or nostalgia by others is not a footballing reason. What is the reasoning you see that Poch shouldn't be our top candidate?

One of things I feel we have been lacking over the years is a high performance culture and a structured, professional approach to player recruitment. I strongly feel we need to do the same with manager (and now DoF) recruitment.

So if I were Levy, I would be looking at the body of work Poch has done since he was sacked. I'd assess his performance over both seasons, what was the overall achievement? How was it achieved? What was Poch's individual contribution? What was the strength of the league? How flexible was he tactical?, What did yhe do regarding youth? What were the prevailing external conditions? (very difficult working for someone like Leonardo and a club like PSG) etc etc.

I'd then benchmark that against other candidates.....using exactly the same performance assessment framework to assess how Nagelsmann, Gallardo, Slot, Enrique, Amorim, De Zerbi and Kompany did. If Poch came out of that favourably and it was then between him another candidate, only then would I start looking at more subjective and intangible things like personality, demeanour etc.

Therein lies the problem, in truth, since Poch was sacked, there simply isn't an overwhelmingly compelling body of evidence that screams "we must get him back at all costs" when compared to what Nagelsmann, Gallardo, De Zerbi (to name just 3).

It may well be that Levy simply doesn't want him back for other reasons, but when looked at objectively, I can certainly see why other managers are being considered over him.

Rusta81 · Apr 22, 2023

HedgieSpur said:
One of things I feel we have been lacking over the years is a high performance culture and a structured, professional approach to player recruitment. I strongly feel we need to do the same with manager (and now DoF) recruitment.

So if I were Levy, I would be looking at the body of work Poch has done since he was sacked. I'd assess his performance over both seasons, what was the overall achievement? How was it achieved? What was Poch's individual contribution? What was the strength of the league? How flexible was he tactical?, What did yhe do regarding youth? What were the prevailing external conditions? (very difficult working for someone like Leonardo and a club like PSG) etc etc.

I'd then benchmark that against other candidates.....using exactly the same performance assessment framework to assess how Nagelsmann, Gallardo, Slot, Enrique, Amorim, De Zerbi and Kompany did. If Poch came out of that favourably and it was then between him another candidate, only then would I start looking at more subjective and intangible things like personality, demeanour etc.

Therein lies the problem, in truth, since Poch was sacked, there simply isn't an overwhelmingly compelling body of evidence that screams "we must get him back at all costs" when compared to what Nagelsmann, Gallardo, De Zerbi (to name just 3).

It may well be that Levy simply doesn't want him back for other reasons, but when looked at objectively, I can certainly see why other managers are being considered over him.

Did a decent job before the PSG gig tho (who still haven’t hit their objective of winning the champs league since he left.)
At his previous post to that he Coached players and a team going nowhere in to becoming one of the best in the league . Then as that team needed recycling and refreshing he couldn’t be backed due to club investment elsewhere and the team still got top 4 finishes and a Chamos league final . He’s CV is still decent.
compared to De Zerbi and Nagkesmann ( who just got sacked by Bayern for under performance)

cliff jones · Apr 22, 2023

DenverSpur said:
Because he was here before and while he got us up and running, playing enjoyable football , ultimately he failed to get us across the line in any competition. What makes you think he will do any better second time around. I loved him as our manager and I loved the football we played under him but he’s not a winner.
One of the reasons Tottenham don’t win anything is because the fans are content not winning trophies as long as they get to see nice football and get to watch a few stylish players ( who only turn it on 1 game in 5). We reminisce about Hoddle’s goal at Watford, Ginola’s goal at Barnsley, Gazza’s free kick in the FA Cup Semi Final etc because we don’t have trophies to reminisce about.
Poch got us competing for the Title, for the CL and domestic cups but he lacked that winner’s ability to seal the deal. Nothing he’s done since convinces me he’s gained that ability. People just want him back because he made us feel good and let’s face it the last few years have not made any one of us feel good. That’s nostalgia though and we should be planning for the future not meandering down Memory Lane.

I'm not in favour of Poch returning but you're talking bollox here. We literally won the cup the season Gazza scored that goal, despite losing him early in the final. The goal became the symbol of that cup triumph.

Yes, we've been largely bereft since then but that's down to Sugar then Levy, with the latter obviously doing better particularly in CL qualification- if not trophies. Unfortunately this seems to be the height of his ambition.

Of course we'd had to celebrate individual players given we've only really had two more complete teams in 20 years, but this doesn't make us pine for the past.

jolsnogross · Apr 22, 2023

DenverSpur said:
Because he was here before and while he got us up and running, playing enjoyable football , ultimately he failed to get us across the line in any competition. What makes you think he will do any better second time around. I loved him as our manager and I loved the football we played under him but he’s not a winner.
One of the reasons Tottenham don’t win anything is because the fans are content not winning trophies as long as they get to see nice football and get to watch a few stylish players ( who only turn it on 1 game in 5). We reminisce about Hoddle’s goal at Watford, Ginola’s goal at Barnsley, Gazza’s free kick in the FA Cup Semi Final etc because we don’t have trophies to reminisce about.
Poch got us competing for the Title, for the CL and domestic cups but he lacked that winner’s ability to seal the deal. Nothing he’s done since convinces me he’s gained that ability. People just want him back because he made us feel good and let’s face it the last few years have not made any one of us feel good. That’s nostalgia though and we should be planning for the future not meandering down Memory Lane.

I think he'll do better second time around because of the experience he gained with us and since he left us. I'm very confident he hasn't been sitting around doing nothing during periods he hasn't been managing since he left. He also succeeded at PSG, winning a title and a cup at a uniquely dysfunctional club to manage. So "he's not a winner" is objectively wrong. Also, he didn't win at Spurs does not define whether someone is a winner or not. Mourinho and Conte didn't win here either. Are they not winners?

The nostalgia you refer to here - Hoddle (2 FA cups and a UEFA cup at Spurs, by the way), Ginola, Gazza (on the way to a cup win, by the way) are your nostalgia. Not mine. They also have absolutely nothing to do with Pochettino. So again, objectively not an argument against Poch as a leading managerial candidate.

Poch is undoubtedly the most successful modern manager at Spurs who turned around the idea that we (or any particular player) was good one game in 5. Since he left, we haven't won 5 league games in a row in fact. I keep an eye out for that, it's a good indicator of a manager that is on the right track. Spurs haven't managed it since Poch left.

"Poch got us competing for the title, CL, and domestic cups" absolutely is evidence in support of his candidacy. I'll repeat that - absolutely supports his case to be the leading candidate for our next manager. The idea he achieved that, at Spurs, and nobody else in 20 years has gotten anywhere near as close, including the experienced "winners" you appear to favour versus "non-winner' Poch is an argument for Poch. Not against him.

I don't want him back just "because he made us us feel good". That might be how you feel, but that's not an argument against his candidacy. I want him back because he's an excellent manager who has been successful at Espanyol, Southampton, Spurs and PSG, and I'm reasonably confident he's enough of a student of the game (and mentality and leadership) that his next club will seriously benefit from his tenure there. I hope it's us. But have no confidence that the clown who sacked him previously - who has a 20 year record of proving he understands very little about how to build winning football teams - will hire him.

Thanks for responding though. I've been looking for a good argument against his candidacy. I'm still looking, but appreciate your thoughts.

tototoner · Apr 22, 2023

The more I read and hear about Kompany the more he appeals to me.

Burnley were a far bigger basket case than us when he took over them and look at what he has achieved.

I also like the Guardiola connection, just look at what ex players and assistents under Guardiola are doing right now across Europe.

Arteta at Arsenal
Xavi at Barcelona
Kompany at Burnley

Most important though is his attacking style of football, especially after Mourinho and Conte.

tototoner · Apr 22, 2023

jolsnogross said:
I think he'll do better second time around because of the experience he gained with us and since he left us. I'm very confident he hasn't been sitting around doing nothing during periods he hasn't been managing since he left. He also succeeded at PSG, winning a title and a cup at a uniquely dysfunctional club to manage. So "he's not a winner" is objectively wrong. Also, he didn't win at Spurs does not define whether someone is a winner or not. Mourinho and Conte didn't win here either. Are they not winners?

The nostalgia you refer to here - Hoddle (2 FA cups and a UEFA cup at Spurs, by the way), Ginola, Gazza (on the way to a cup win, by the way) are your nostalgia. Not mine. They also have absolutely nothing to do with Pochettino. So again, objectively not an argument against Poch as a leading managerial candidate.

Poch is undoubtedly the most successful modern manager at Spurs who turned around the idea that we (or any particular player) was good one game in 5. Since he left, we haven't won 5 league games in a row in fact. I keep an eye out for that, it's a good indicator of a manager that is on the right track. Spurs haven't managed it since Poch left.

"Poch got us competing for the title, CL, and domestic cups" absolutely is evidence in support of his candidacy. I'll repeat that - absolutely supports his case to be the leading candidate for our next manager. The idea he achieved that, at Spurs, and nobody else in 20 years has gotten anywhere near as close, including the experienced "winners" you appear to favour versus "non-winner' Poch is an argument for Poch. Not against him.

I don't want him back just "because he made us us feel good". That might be how you feel, but that's not an argument against his candidacy. I want him back because he's an excellent manager who has been successful at Espanyol, Southampton, Spurs and PSG, and I'm reasonably confident he's enough of a student of the game (and mentality and leadership) that his next club will seriously benefit from his tenure there. I hope it's us. But have no confidence that the clown who sacked him previously - who has a 20 year record of proving he understands very little about how to build winning football teams - will hire him.

Thanks for responding though. I've been looking for a good argument against his candidacy. I'm still looking, but appreciate your thoughts.

I loved Pochettino but has a manager returning back to their old club ever worked out?

jolsnogross · Apr 22, 2023

HedgieSpur said:
One of things I feel we have been lacking over the years is a high performance culture and a structured, professional approach to player recruitment. I strongly feel we need to do the same with manager (and now DoF) recruitment.

So if I were Levy, I would be looking at the body of work Poch has done since he was sacked. I'd assess his performance over both seasons, what was the overall achievement? How was it achieved? What was Poch's individual contribution? What was the strength of the league? How flexible was he tactical?, What did yhe do regarding youth? What were the prevailing external conditions? (very difficult working for someone like Leonardo and a club like PSG) etc etc.

I'd then benchmark that against other candidates.....using exactly the same performance assessment framework to assess how Nagelsmann, Gallardo, Slot, Enrique, Amorim, De Zerbi and Kompany did. If Poch came out of that favourably and it was then between him another candidate, only then would I start looking at more subjective and intangible things like personality, demeanour etc.

Therein lies the problem, in truth, since Poch was sacked, there simply isn't an overwhelmingly compelling body of evidence that screams "we must get him back at all costs" when compared to what Nagelsmann, Gallardo, De Zerbi (to name just 3).

It may well be that Levy simply doesn't want him back for other reasons, but when looked at objectively, I can certainly see why other managers are being considered over him.

That's all fair enough but why would you restrict his record to his post-Spurs period? That's a bit of a tell, and certainly not an argument for other managers ahead of Poch. I suspect he scores very favourably on all of those criteria versus those other managers you've mentioned. The idea his record across 4 clubs of his managerial career is inferior to those three guys doesn't hold water I reckon.

I would hope there is a structured approach to comparing managers at Spurs, but suspect Levy and his whisperers don't have one. Each decent manager in a criteria comparison will all score higher than others for certain criteria, and it could be a fundamental error to only choose the last season or two to make a case (e.g. Kompany, de Zerbi)

But this isn't an algorithmic issue and won't be solved in a fully 'objective' way. As you said, those other so called intangibles aren't actually secondary or all that intangible. the right personality and demeanor are all necessary for good leadership. Poch has proven at Spurs that he has those qualities. There's not a shred of evidence that he's lost those qualities. How would he rank versus Mourinho and Conte in those terms?

TheVoiceofReason · Apr 22, 2023

tototoner said:
I loved Pochettino but has a manager returning back to their old club ever worked out?

Mourinho did well second time round at Chelsea. But problem is nothings changed here, it’s not Poch that would be the issue.

HedgieSpur · Apr 22, 2023

jolsnogross said:
That's all fair enough but why would you restrict his record to his post-Spurs period? That's a bit of a tell, and certainly not an argument for other managers ahead of Poch. I suspect he scores very favourably on all of those criteria versus those other managers you've mentioned. The idea his record across 4 clubs of his managerial career is inferior to those three guys doesn't hold water I reckon.

I would hope there is a structured approach to comparing managers at Spurs, but suspect Levy and his whisperers don't have one. Each decent manager in a criteria comparison will all score higher than others for certain criteria, and it could be a fundamental error to only choose the last season or two to make a case (e.g. Kompany, de Zerbi)

But this isn't an algorithmic issue and won't be solved in a fully 'objective' way. As you said, those other so called intangibles aren't actually secondary or all that intangible. the right personality and demeanor are all necessary for good leadership. Poch has proven at Spurs that he has those qualities. There's not a shred of evidence that he's lost those qualities. How would he rank versus Mourinho and Conte in those terms?

Choosing leaders always will have some element of subjectivity...definitely agree with you there. But for me, personality and demeanour are modifiers rather than absolutes when it comes to selection criteria. In that way, we can guard against personal bias and recruiting in our own image.

Regarding the "why only assess his post Spurs record?"....well that's simply because we already know what he did previously. We hired him for his good work at Southamption. At Spurs, overall I don't think it can be deemed as anything less than "very good". It wasn't without its faults, but overall he did very well. So that is pretty much a given. But we need to be objective and see how he performed since he left to give us additional data imo. We can't simply dismiss it or say it isn't relevant...thats just curve fitting. After all, if he had gone to PSG and done the Ligue & CL double in both seasons, he would rightly want that to be included in any evaluation.

As I said, I think when looking at it objectively, I can see why others may be more appealing (even though some of those managers, I personally wouldn't have at the top of my list)

nedley · Apr 22, 2023

Hotspur33 said:
No. Only ITK is that Nagelsmann isn’t going Chelsea, but Poch looks like the most likely to go to Chelsea right now

We have.

Trix and others have stated there have been discussions regarding Slot.

DenverSpur · Apr 22, 2023

jolsnogross said:
I think he'll do better second time around because of the experience he gained with us and since he left us. I'm very confident he hasn't been sitting around doing nothing during periods he hasn't been managing since he left. He also succeeded at PSG, winning a title and a cup at a uniquely dysfunctional club to manage. So "he's not a winner" is objectively wrong. Also, he didn't win at Spurs does not define whether someone is a winner or not. Mourinho and Conte didn't win here either. Are they not winners?

The nostalgia you refer to here - Hoddle (2 FA cups and a UEFA cup at Spurs, by the way), Ginola, Gazza (on the way to a cup win, by the way) are your nostalgia. Not mine. They also have absolutely nothing to do with Pochettino. So again, objectively not an argument against Poch as a leading managerial candidate.

Poch is undoubtedly the most successful modern manager at Spurs who turned around the idea that we (or any particular player) was good one game in 5. Since he left, we haven't won 5 league games in a row in fact. I keep an eye out for that, it's a good indicator of a manager that is on the right track. Spurs haven't managed it since Poch left.

"Poch got us competing for the title, CL, and domestic cups" absolutely is evidence in support of his candidacy. I'll repeat that - absolutely supports his case to be the leading candidate for our next manager. The idea he achieved that, at Spurs, and nobody else in 20 years has gotten anywhere near as close, including the experienced "winners" you appear to favour versus "non-winner' Poch is an argument for Poch. Not against him.

I don't want him back just "because he made us us feel good". That might be how you feel, but that's not an argument against his candidacy. I want him back because he's an excellent manager who has been successful at Espanyol, Southampton, Spurs and PSG, and I'm reasonably confident he's enough of a student of the game (and mentality and leadership) that his next club will seriously benefit from his tenure there. I hope it's us. But have no confidence that the clown who sacked him previously - who has a 20 year record of proving he understands very little about how to build winning football teams - will hire him.

Thanks for responding though. I've been looking for a good argument against his candidacy. I'm still looking, but appreciate your thoughts.

Not sure why you are purposely misinterpreting my words. I never suggested the nostalgia was my nostalgia. That clearly referred to people who want Poch back not to the goals I mentioned. I referenced them to point out fans are more interested in flamboyant players who give them the odd moments of excitement rather than having a team that can consistently win games and therefore challenge for and win trophies.
Nothing I said indicated I favored experienced winners rather that I didn’t feel Poch had a winners mentality. I would rather we found a younger manager with a winners mentality. Someone like Kompany for example although I personally would like us to hire Gallardo.
You’re entitled to your advocacy for rehiring Poch but I just feel it’s a step backwards. I feel he had his chance and ultimately wasn’t successful and now it’s time to find someone new to take us forward. As I mentioned above I think Gallardo would be the ideal manager to turn us into a successful team and I’m disappointed we haven’t given him serious consideration.

jolsnogross · Apr 22, 2023

tototoner said:
I loved Pochettino but has a manager returning back to their old club ever worked out?

This is the superstition I see most of the time as an argument against Poch and it really isn't any sort of argument at all. Against or for.

Eddie Howe managed Bournemouth, then left for Burnley. Then returned and got Bournemouth promoted to the Championship & Premier League.
Pulis was sacked by Stoke, then got the job again and got them promoted to the PL, kept them in the PL, had an FA cup final, and playing in Europe.
Mourinho left Chelsea, and returned some years later to win another league title and league cup.
Redknapp left Portsmouth, returned and had them in mid table and a famous FA cup win.
Capello managed Madrid in 96/97 and 06/07. He won the title in both periods.
Lippi left Juventus, returned, won two Serie A titles, two supercoppas, and runner up in the CL.
Dalglish went back to Liverpool after a 20 year gap. It wasn't great, but he did win a league cup and reached the FA cup final.
Heynckes returned to Bayern twice, with a 20yr and 4 yr gap between terms. He won a title in all three terms (4 titles in total).
Zidane returned to Madrid and won a supercopa and a title
Ancelotti returned to Madrid, winning the title, the supercopa, and the Champions league.

So, there are many cases across the spectrum of football where managers have returned and succeeded. People can pick the bones of this list as they wish, but "never go back" is superstitious nonsense.

I could easily google around for a list of managers who returned and failed. There's lots of those cases too. Circumstance has a lot to do with managing a club, whether it's your first go around, or second, third, fourth etc. As an argument against re-hiring Poch, it is the thinnest of gruels. Whereas hiring someone who has succeeded here in spite of the institutional barriers to success at this club, is very much an argument in favour of re-hiring him.

jolsnogross · Apr 22, 2023

DenverSpur said:
Not sure why you are purposely misinterpreting my words. I never suggested the nostalgia was my nostalgia. That clearly referred to people who want Poch back not to the goals I mentioned. I referenced them to point out fans are more interested in flamboyant players who give them the odd moments of excitement rather than having a team that can consistently win games and therefore challenge for and win trophies.
Nothing I said indicated I favored experienced winners rather that I didn’t feel Poch had a winners mentality. I would rather we found a younger manager with a winners mentality. Someone like Kompany for example although I personally would like us to hire Gallardo.
You’re entitled to your advocacy for rehiring Poch but I just feel it’s a step backwards. I feel he had his chance and ultimately wasn’t successful and now it’s time to find someone new to take us forward. As I mentioned above I think Gallardo would be the ideal manager to turn us into a successful team and I’m disappointed we haven’t given him serious consideration.

You referred to nostalgia and if it isn't yours then it appears to be a straw man's. That's fine. It has nothing to do with Poch's time with us previously or the case for or against him returning. And absolutely fine to feel like Poch would be a backward step, and feel like he had his chance. But also not much of an argument.

When we sacked him, I was convinced that was a huge mistake. When we hired Mourinho as his replacement, I was further convinced. I was flabbergasted so many Spurs fans were on board with all that. Now that he could be a contender again (though appears not to be), I'm interested in arguments against him. People's feelings, the idea he isn't a winner, 'never go back' are not arguments.

But absolutely also like to hear other people's cases and hunches for other managers. I don't know much about Gallardo. Seems a risky one but glad to hear his fans tout him and his record.

Hotspur88 · Apr 22, 2023

McFlash said:
I don't mean to sound rude but there is a Poch thread and seeing as though it appears that there's no chance of him coming back here yet, maybe all this Poch chat could go there?

It's getting really boring having to wade through so much fawning for him.

I'll say it again, I said months back he wasn't coming back. Literally could have saved this thread pages and pages of pointless posts because he isn't coming back. But every page we read the same messages. I don't know why we don't just focus on the managers who are actually leading the race.

Stoof · Apr 22, 2023

Hotspur88 said:
I'll say it again, I said months back he wasn't coming back. Literally could have saved this thread pages and pages of pointless posts because he isn't coming back. But every page we read the same messages. I don't know why we don't just focus on the managers who are actually leading the race.

It’s classic transfer rumour forum stuff - albeit in a different forum. No new news will lead to drift and loss of focus - but also the perception that lack of public progress is also a lack of actual progress (which is hardly ever the case)

Not to mention that (certainly the people I follow) Spurs Twitter is very “#PochBack”.

TheVoiceofReason · Apr 22, 2023

Hotspur88 said:
I'll say it again, I said months back he wasn't coming back. Literally could have saved this thread pages and pages of pointless posts because he isn't coming back. But every page we read the same messages. I don't know why we don't just focus on the managers who are actually leading the race.

Appreciate the frustration here, you have been unequivocal about this, but I wouldn’t take it personally or like you’re not being heard. Folks on here have reason to suspect DL and co might completely change their minds at any point, speaking for myself I have zero trust in their recruitment process.

Also the Cambridge interview reminded me that one of DLs favourite one-liners is that he is a Spurs fan first, is it completely out of the realms of possibility that with the fans songs combined with the Chelsea speculation he might crumble and succumb to the fan pressure in a desperate bid to win back favour? Clearly you are saying, that scenario is not at all likely. Which tbh is good news because it’s a glimmer of hope that we are at least being run professionally and not emotionally.

It’s good to hear that there is at least some semblance of a plan, as much as they have narrowed the list down, without Poch on it, and are unwavering about choosing somebody on that list, just wish they would hurry up because the idea of Poch back is more of a coping mechanism than anything else.

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