Jota

Thenewcat · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
I really think the club are making a big error if they are just targeting a player who can play across the 3. Generally that kind of player will be more of a forward than a winger and once again won’t have the specific 1v1 qualities we are absolutely desperate for.

We already have Son, Richarlison and even Johnson who can play across the front.

Yet we have absolutely no specialist 1v1 winger in our squad who is of elite potential or quality.

Jota may or may not be good enough but he’s exactly the profile of player we should be going for.

I also really don’t see how signing a winger bloats our squad. Perisic is out for the season and his contract is up, Gil is nowhere near good enough and not a viable option if we want to actually kick on.

That leaves us with:

Solomon
Son/Richarlison/Veliz
Johnson/Deki

A clear gap in both profile and squad space for a left winger to add the qualities we desperately need, consistent 1v1 threat and cutting edge from the left touchline.

Clubs often get 1/2 positions badly wrong when building a squad. I really hope this isn’t the area we make a bad mistake. If we get it right we could genuinely push for the title this season if we have some luck with injuries.

Son has spent the vast majority of his career playing LW so listing him as a forward and not as an option there is just ignoring reality for your own preferences. 4 of the 6 people you name can and have played LW.

Ange obviously prizes versatility so he should be given what he wants. It’s the one area I’d like an elite addition as opposed to depth as I don’t think someone like Jota moves the needle for us

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jan 3, 2024

Thenewcat said:
Son has spent the vast majority of his career playing LW so listing him as a forward and not as an option there is just ignoring reality for your own preferences. 4 of the 6 people you name can and have played LW.

Ange obviously prizes versatility so he should be given what he wants. It’s the one area I’d like an elite addition as opposed to depth as I don’t think someone like Jota moves the needle for us

Son has never played as a wide player though. This is the issue, our system now has the wide players as the main ones who hold the width. It’s an extremely different role to what Son played before.

Son has always been an inside forward/wing forward. His starting position was from the left but he made loads and loads of narrow runs and runs off the striker. The width was given by the overlapping fullback primarily.

Our system now has the fullbacks narrow, with the wide players holding the width and just drifting inside on occasions for positional rotations. There is a huge difference in our tactical approach and it demands a different set of skills which Son doesn’t really have. He isn’t particularly strong technically, his ball retention isn’t great, he isn’t a strong 1v1 player from a standing start etc.

Son is one of my favourite players but in our system now he is far better as a striker imo and isn’t a proper wide player. Nevermind the fact that playing wide is also far more draining physically for him (he’s 31 now) and requires more running and a larger area to cover.

I agree whoever we sign in attack has to have elite potential.

Trix · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
I would be surprised looking at his Celtic team profiles, his general recent history and the tactical approach he has if he doesn’t want someone with a high level of 1v1 ability.

In our system, despite positional rotations being key, it’s quite clear the wide players are integral and they are the ones who hold the width and provide the outlets to beat players and carve out chances/score goals. Look at how often we move the ball through teams in to those wide areas in attack, isolating the opposition fullbacks.

I’m not saying the player we sign has to just stand out wide all game either. They will of course rotate and end up in central areas at times but they have to have the capability to beat players 1v1 and carve out chances for others in a wide area with pace.

Perhaps Ange is looking for a player who can positionally rotate across the 3 as you say but I do think we’re looking for an incredibly specific player if that’s the case. I’m not sure I can think of a single player who is superb 1v1, quick, good technically, comfortable wide or narrow and can genuinely play across the entire front 3? The only player I can think of is probably Mbappe haha.

I'll be honest in that I don't think Ange is paying as much mind to it as you are. I just think he wants quality in those area's and the ability to create chances however that might be.

When both were fit at the start of the season he was picking Peresic over Soloman for instance. Soloman is a better 1v1 player and is quicker but Perseic was able to gain half a yard and was unpredictable in that he could cross off both feet and created chances.

Thenewcat · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
Son has never played as a wide player though. This is the issue, our system now has the wide players as the main ones who hold the width

It’s your issue though. Ange seems perfectly happy to play Son off the left, and has been getting results doing so

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jan 3, 2024

Trix said:
I'll be honest in that I don't think Ange is paying as much mind to it as you are. I just think he wants quality in those area's and the ability to create chances however that might be.

When both were fit at the start of the season he was picking Peresic over Soloman for instance. Soloman is a better 1v1 player and is quicker but Perseic was able to gain half a yard and was unpredictable in that he could cross off both feet and created chances.

Perisic hasn’t got the pace but he is capable of going both ways and beating his man at the byline (even if he can’t get completely past them anymore). Solomon so far hasn’t shown willingness to go outside enough and I think that’s been the issue with him (early days though to be fair!).

So Perisic in a way, despite his age and having slowed up, still probably possesses the most natural elements of the typical winger for our system I’d say (2 way dribbling ability, can get to the byline for cutbacks and crosses etc).

So I think what we need is someone who can do that but obviously is younger, has more pace and energy etc.

I honestly think it’s gamechanging for us

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jan 3, 2024

Thenewcat said:
It’s your issue though. Ange seems perfectly happy to play Son off the left, and has been getting results doing so

I believe Ange is working with what he has while he builds his team. He was playing Son striker until we lost Maddison etc and had to use Deki in midfield. He doesn’t exactly have many options in attack does he?

We are getting results and we are still a good team, potentially a great team with everyone fit. I strongly believe that the biggest weakness in our starting 11 though is that wide area. It’s basically the only area of the pitch we don’t have someone with one of the profiles Ange (and top teams) always has.

Trix · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
Perisic hasn’t got the pace but he is capable of going both ways and beating his man at the byline (even if he can’t get completely past them anymore). Solomon so far hasn’t shown willingness to go outside enough and I think that’s been the issue with him (early days though to be fair!).

So Perisic in a way, despite his age and having slowed up, still probably possesses the most natural elements of the typical winger for our system I’d say (2 way dribbling ability, can get to the byline for cutbacks and crosses etc).

So I think what we need is someone who can do that but obviously is younger, has more pace and energy etc.

I honestly think it’s gamechanging for us

Again not sure I believe Ange is too bothered by all that. It very much reads as though you are projecting what you think we should do as what you believe Ange wants tbh. I mean its hardly the case that we aren't creating chances as it is now is it. Lets be honest Nick you have always advocated for this type of player (fast technical dribblers) being brought in for as long as I can remember regardless of who the manager was.

Ghost Hardware · Jan 3, 2024

nedley said:
Who's your preference @Ghost Hardware?

For that next forward signing in the next couple of windows?

Tbh I’m struggling a bit, like others, with the idea of a forward who can play across the front three. There are not many WF who are comfortable at CF so it usually ends up with a CF or second striker who can also play out wide. Problem with second strikers tho is that they are often best playing off a CF rather than ether out wide or as a lone striker and generally CF aren’t great with the ball at their feet plus don’t tend to hold width when out wide.

In general to answer your question I would have loved Kvaratskhelia (dream signing, probably the perfect wide player for our system but way way too expensive), Neto (would fit in really well imo but his injuries are obviously a big issue plus price probably), Nico Williams (but he just signed a contract extension and no chance we pay the release fee which requires a lump payment) beyond that I would have loved to have also gone with someone younger less experienced players with potential like Nusa, Soulé, Bakayoko etc. There’s a lot of great young WF talents coming through at the moment but none of those I mention are also comfortable playing CF.

As to who actually matches the criteria I honestly can’t think of many who would elevate us. Marcus Thuram (unavailable), Mathys Tel (unavailable) Kolo Muani (unavailable) Joa Felix (unavailable and Porro) Dybala (available for cheap but injury prone and more comfortable as a SS then out wide or as a lone CF) Chiesa (quite similar to Son, can play across all three spots although better out wide but again injuries are unfortunately a concern) Jonathan David (never been a fan and isn’t having a great season but supposedly we have had long term interest. Likely too expensive for this window tho and really think he’d struggle in the PL. fits the criteria tho).

The one name I wonder about is another Genoa player who we have been linked to in the past and that’s Guðmundsson. Scored 6 goals this season and has been played on the wing and up front, all be it in a two rather than a one. At 26 I think he’d be a risk but will probably be cheap. Idk, not a thrilling addition as he’d be more a depth signing but probably more plausible than any of the names I’ve mentioned above.

Essentially finding a versatile CF/WF is actually very tricky and when looking around the market I really struggle to see who is available out there of the required level. At least who is available within our budget. My assumption on this one is it could drag out over the window and we will see what options become available. A lot of players have contracts running low (Chiesa for example) so more opportunities could arise towards the tail end of the window. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if we don’t end up getting one this window.

Thenewcat · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
I believe Ange is working with what he has while he builds his team. He was playing Son striker until we lost Maddison etc and had to use Deki in midfield. He doesn’t exactly have many options in attack does he?

We are getting results and we are still a good team, potentially a great team with everyone fit. I strongly believe that the biggest weakness in our starting 11 though is that wide area. It’s basically the only area of the pitch we don’t have someone with one of the profiles Ange (and top teams) always has.

He was playing Son at CF because Richarlison was hurt/ineffective. He could swap them over now, or play GLC at 10 to keep Kulu in the front line and play Johnson on the left, it’s not like he has no choice but to play Sonny out there.

Imagine if Kane hadn’t left. He would be CF, Sonny would be off the left and I think there’s every chance we’d be winning the league. We need an elite forward as the cherry on top of a great first XI. I’m not so worried about where they fit. I’m not saying the kind of player you want is wrong by the way, I think a Doku type would be great for us. I just think you’re insisting your view of the system is more important than Ange’s and we don’t need to fixate on one specific type of forward option

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jan 3, 2024

Trix said:
Again not sure I believe Ange is too bothered by all that. It very much reads as though you are projecting what you think we should do as what you believe Ange wants tbh. I mean it’s hardly the case that we aren't creating chances as it is now is it. Let’s be honest Nick you have always advocated for this type of player (fast technical dribblers) being brought in for as long as I can remember regardless of who the manager was.

For sure mate and one of the reasons is I strongly believe the very best elite teams always have this type of player within their ranks. Reason being this player disrupts the opposition and carves out chances independent of the team playing well or not, which is absolutely key. There will be days where the passing patterns, the movements etc don’t come off. Having someone excellent 1v1 adds the extra element to the team which raises the ceiling, hence why nearly all elite teams have a player of this type.

I think we have lacked this player for a long time. I’m even more keen now because I’m genuinely so excited by Ange and honestly I feel like we’re building something that could win us a PL or CL title. I genuinely feel like this profile is the one missing piece of our jigsaw compared to our rivals.

I apologise if it comes across repetitive but I think I’ve tried to explain in tactical detail why this is such an important element for us and how it aligns with our style of play. I haven’t just spammed names etc, I feel like I’ve answered questions fairly and tried to have an in depth conversation explaining my reasoning. Appreciate the back and forth on this though, it’s interesting to me!

Trent Crimm · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
For sure mate and one of the reasons is I strongly believe the very best elite teams always have this type of player within their ranks. Reason being this player disrupts the opposition and carves out chances independent of the team playing well or not, which is absolutely key. There will be days where the passing patterns, the movements etc don’t come off. Having someone excellent 1v1 adds the extra element to the team which raises the ceiling, hence why nearly all elite teams have a player of this type.

I think we have lacked this player for a long time. I’m even more keen now because I’m genuinely so excited by Ange and honestly I feel like we’re building something that could win us a PL or CL title. I genuinely feel like this profile is the one missing piece of our jigsaw compared to our rivals.

I apologise if it comes across repetitive but I think I’ve tried to explain in tactical detail why this is such an important element for us and how it aligns with our style of play. I haven’t just spammed names etc, I feel like I’ve answered questions fairly and tried to have an in depth conversation explaining my reasoning. Appreciate the back and forth on this though, it’s interesting to me!

How about Brennan. You categorically wrote him off the other day “never will he be the 1on1 we need”.

how so. If you know this then can I also have the numbers for the lotto

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jan 3, 2024

Trent Crimm said:
How about Brennan. You categorically wrote him off the other day “never will he be the 1on1 we need”.

how so. If you know this then can I also have the numbers for the lotto

Johnson is a different type of player.

I also praised him and said I think he can offer a lot.

He will never be the type of 1v1 player I'm talking about though. That's a natural thing, you've either got it or you don't, you're that type of player or you're not. Johnson can develop his game so that he takes people more often on in a very direct manner (a great weapon for us) but he will never be the technical 1v1 dribbler I'm talking about. You don't learn that at 22 years old. He's quite upright, he doesn't have the touch or agility for that type of dribble. You can instantly spot a natural dribbler.

And that's ok, I said the other day he can be really good for us and I'm more excited than I was when we first signed him. What he can be is a very effective runner off the ball and direct in possession, with elite tier pace and goal threat from wide as well as good cutback ability.

mil1lion · Jan 3, 2024

I think we need to look to replace Gil and Perisic whether with Jota or someone else. I don't think it has to be done this window though. We also have not seen a lot of Soloman yet so it's easy to forget what he could bring. The big decision is where we see Son in the long term. If we keep him left then we probably need to look for a centre forward instead. I think either way chances are the best option for either position will come in the summer window. Jota on loan is fine to see how he does first but we need to consider the long term. I wouldn't commit to him long term as think we could get better in the summer.

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jan 3, 2024

mil1lion said:
I think we need to look to replace Gil and Perisic whether with Jota or someone else. I don't think it has to be done this window though. We also have not seen a lot of Soloman yet so it's easy to forget what he could bring. The big decision is where we see Son in the long term. If we keep him left then we probably need to look for a centre forward instead. I think either way chances are the best option for either position will come in the summer window. Jota on loan is fine to see how he does first but we need to consider the long term. I wouldn't commit to him long term as think we could get better in the summer.

That's why a loan deal with option could be good for us. It gives us an extra attacking option and we can assess how he does ahead of the summer. We can then attack the market in the summer for a higher quality player if we feel he isn't good enough.

Trent Crimm · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
Johnson is a different type of player.

I also praised him and said I think he can offer a lot.

He will never be the type of 1v1 player I'm talking about though. That's a natural thing, you've either got it or you don't, you're that type of player or you're not. Johnson can develop his game so that he takes people more often on in a very direct manner (a great weapon for us) but he will never be the technical 1v1 dribbler I'm talking about. You don't learn that at 22 years old. He's quite upright, he doesn't have the touch or agility for that type of dribble. You can instantly spot a natural dribbler.

And that's ok, I said the other day he can be really good for us and I'm more excited than I was when we first signed him. What he can be is a very effective runner off the ball and direct in possession, with elite tier pace and goal threat from wide as well as good cutback ability.

Trix · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
Johnson is a different type of player.

I also praised him and said I think he can offer a lot.

He will never be the type of 1v1 player I'm talking about though. That's a natural thing, you've either got it or you don't, you're that type of player or you're not. Johnson can develop his game so that he takes people more often on in a very direct manner (a great weapon for us) but he will never be the technical 1v1 dribbler I'm talking about. You don't learn that at 22 years old. He's quite upright, he doesn't have the touch or agility for that type of dribble. You can instantly spot a natural dribbler.

And that's ok, I said the other day he can be really good for us and I'm more excited than I was when we first signed him. What he can be is a very effective runner off the ball and direct in possession, with elite tier pace and goal threat from wide as well as good cutback ability.

If Ange does desperately want this 1v1 type player you are convinced he does, surely he doesn't green light the Johnson deal at £40mil. Surely he pushes for a player who has the right skillset instead?

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jan 3, 2024

Trix said:
If Ange does desperately want this 1v1 type player you are convinced he does, surely he doesn't green light the Johnson deal at £40mil. Surely he pushes for a player who has the right skillset instead?

Maybe he wants both? A wide attacker who has elite pace and can develop a real goal threat and threat in behind, and a winger who is the 1v1 specialist and go to attacker as the other option. The one that play gravitates towards for attacks, like Saka, Doku etc. They can also play in the same side, rotate etc.

We are early in to his reign, perhaps he felt that was the easiest addition to get in the short term while he builds the team?

mil1lion · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
That's why a loan deal with option could be good for us. It gives us an extra attacking option and we can assess how he does ahead of the summer. We can then attack the market in the summer for a higher quality player if we feel he isn't good enough.

Yeah if we get a loan it makes sense. Same as when we loaned Danjuma and then had space free when he left to get Soloman in.

Dunc2610 · Jan 3, 2024

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
Maybe he wants both? A wide attacker who has elite pace and can develop a real goal threat and threat in behind, and a winger who is the 1v1 specialist and go to attacker as the other option. The one that play gravitates towards for attacks, like Saka, Doku etc. They can also play in the same side, rotate etc.

We are early in to his reign, perhaps he felt that was the easiest addition to get in the short term while he builds the team?

Or maybe as Trix said you're projecting what you think he wants rather than what he actually wants?

BorjeSpurs · Jan 3, 2024

Dunc2610 said:
I'm sure they'll take your superior opinion under advisement and pull out all the stops to do as you wish!

Dunc2610 said:
Or maybe as Trix said you're projecting what you think he wants rather than what he actually wants?

Do you guys have beef in other threads? If not, what's the point of these comments against someone who is just trying to contribute to the discussion of a potential transfer?

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