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Gazza - new pics - Not good.

glospur

glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
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9,806
TottenhamMattSpur said:
My dad was a dreadful alcoholic but he gave up in the end.
Not sure what got through to him to make him stop but it's been about 4 years now.

I always get annoyed when people call it a disease or an illness. I think that's enormously disrespectful to people who have things wrong with them that they didn't ask for and in lots of cases, have no treatment for.
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Almost every medical professional and psychologist classifies addiction as an illness and that's how it should be treated. People shouldn't be denigrated for self-medication with whatever substance they abuse, they should be helped and treated as someone who is sick. There are also studies that suggest some people have a predisposition to addiction through chemical imbalances in the brain, much like the imbalances that cause illness such as depression or bipolar disorder, it is not someone's fault if they are born with this problem.
 
Dr Benson

Dr Benson

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
465
569
Ha, faymantaray. I just logged in to say exactly the same. Don't buy these disguisting papers. Don't read em online. We are living in a time with IS (or do you call them ISIS in UK?) and civil war in Syria, refugee crisis, terror, election in US ++, but what are the british tabloids concerned about? Well, Gazza is drunk again!!??? British tabloids can go fuck themselves.

Off course alcholism is a desease. You become psysical addicted to alchohol, just like heroin.

Gazza will forever be a Spurs-legend and will.never be forgotten!!
 
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TottenhamMattSpur

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
10,925
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Martin Ledang said:
Ha, faymantaray. I just logged in to say exactly the same. Don't buy these disguisting papers. Don't read em online. We are living in a time with IS (or do you call them ISIS in UK?) and civil war in Syria, refugee crisis, terror, election in US ++, but what are the british tabloids concerned about? Well, Gazza is drunk again!!??? British tabloids can go fuck themselves.

Off course alcholism is a desease. You become psysical addicted to alchohol, just like heroin.

Gazza will forever be a Spurs-legend and will.never be forgotten!!
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Do you think a cancer patients would refuse to get better if there was a 100% guaranteed way to do so?

Do you think children would die regularly if
they could choose not to?

That's the difference between addicts and genuine victims of illness. One has a choice and the other doesn't.
 
glospur

glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
2,608
9,806
TottenhamMattSpur said:
Do you think a cancer patients would refuse to get better if there was a 100% guaranteed way to do so?

Do you think children would die regularly if
they could choose not to?

That's the difference between addicts and genuine victims of illness. One has a choice and the other doesn't.
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Actually, often they don't. Again, addiction is often a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain that can lead to a predisposition to addiction, similar to imbalances that cause illnesses such as depression or bipolar, which is not something about which a person can make a choice. Also again, almost every medical professional and psychologist considers addiction to be an illness, not something that some chooses to do.
 
Capocrimini

Capocrimini

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Sep 17, 2005
2,125
1,873
As sad as I feel for Gazza imagine how heart breaking it must be for those that love him go through this cycle again and again.

:-(
 
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TottenhamMattSpur

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
10,925
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glospur said:
Actually, often they don't. Again, addiction is often a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain that can lead to a predisposition to addiction, similar to imbalances that cause illnesses such as depression or bipolar, which is not something about which a person can make a choice. Also again, almost every medical professional and psychologist considers addiction to be an illness, not something that some chooses to do.
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People with mental health issues can choose to take medication and receive counselling and function as an ordinary person. Most of them do. And they're often born that way or something terrible happens to trigger it.

Addicts have the same choice. Except they chose to subject themselves to chemicals that cause a physical dependency. Babies aren't born alcoholics. They grow up then turn to it and even then they need to consume enough to become physically addicted.
I know more about this than most people having been raised by alcoholics. When they choose to pack it in they succeed. They shouldn't be treated like victims as they can get themselves sorted but they have to want to.
 
Dr Benson

Dr Benson

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
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You claim that most persons with health issues choose to take medication. Which is not true, at least in my country. And this I know very well.

It is likely that the bottle of booze is a symptom, and that alcholism is a mental condition. They can not just stop drinking. Real alcoholics are often psysical addicted to alchohol too. Noone thinks it's fun to start the morning with Smirnoff every day.

Off course many people can stop, but with their mental state of mind, I think it's quite difficult. Like heroin. If you start shooting heroin, you're probably weak, stupid etc., so you probably don't have the necessary strength to kick the habbit.
 
glospur

glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
2,608
9,806
TottenhamMattSpur said:
People with mental health issues can choose to take medication and receive counselling and function as an ordinary person. Most of them do. And they're often born that way or something terrible happens to trigger it.

Addicts have the same choice. Except they chose to subject themselves to chemicals that cause a physical dependency. Babies aren't born alcoholics. They grow up then turn to it and even then they need to consume enough to become physically addicted.
I know more about this than most people having been raised by alcoholics. When they choose to pack it in they succeed. They shouldn't be treated like victims as they can get themselves sorted but they have to want to.
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Babies may not be born alcoholics, but they can be born with a predisposition to addiction due to the chemical makeup of their brain. It's the reason why some people can drink and not be alcoholics; it's the reason why someone can engage in recreational drug use but not go on to be drug dependent. Seeking help when you have a mental health illness is not a 'choice,' it's a battle with oneself with a conflict between the idea self-dependence and that of seeking assistance; it's a struggle with the perceptions of weakness from oneself and the perceived perception of weakness from others; it's an acceptance that there is something seriously wrong with yourself; it's the willingness to demonstrate your emotional and psychological fragility to others, some of whom might be complete strangers, and completely open yourself to examination and perceived judgement; it's a myriad of other complicated emotions and struggles; it's not a 'choice.'

You're also wrong in suggesting that most people who suffer from a mental health issue choose to take medication or seek counselling. A study where I live in Australia suggested that only 35% of people with mental health illnesses seek out some sort of health service and that the national suicide rate is approximately 7 per day with 3 out of every 5 committed by a male, which makes it the 10th largest killer of men in this country. I would be absolutely staggered if the rate per capita in the UK wasn't very similar.

Whichever way you look at addiction it is a mental health illness and as such it is a disease for which it is incredibly hard to seek help. I sympathise with your situation as I was raised in somewhat similar circumstances, albeit only with one parent experiencing illness but with many other issues also included. But just because people you know managed to overcome it, it does not mean it is the same for others. Anecdotal evidence/experience =/= the rule.
 
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TottenhamMattSpur

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Aug 31, 2012
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I have a predisposition to eat too much and to put on weight.
What do I do? Do I call it an illness and stuff my face until I can't find my own dick to piss?

No. I watch what I eat and I run like forest bloody gump.

I'm not saying it's as easy as choosing to not be something. But it's easy to understand you do have a choice and that's the start of sorting the problems out.
Those that ignore this are their own worst enemies and victims of themselves.
 
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TottenhamMattSpur

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Aug 31, 2012
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Another addict related issue that literally makes my blood boil is organ donations.

Unless there's a stockpile of livers sitting around not needed, no alcoholic should get one.
 
Dr Benson

Dr Benson

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Aug 22, 2013
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I`m planning to get a teetotallers liver when I`m 60 and my liver is too well-used. That way I can have pretty cool years as retired in Spain and Thailand.
TottenhamMattSpur said:
Another addict related issue that literally makes my blood boil is organ donations.

Unless there's a stockpile of livers sitting around not needed, no alcoholic should get one.
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T

tommythetank

Active Member
Jan 18, 2011
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TottenhamMattSpur said:
People with mental health issues can choose to take medication and receive counselling and function as an ordinary person. Most of them do. And they're often born that way or something terrible happens to trigger it.

Addicts have the same choice. Except they chose to subject themselves to chemicals that cause a physical dependency. Babies aren't born alcoholics. They grow up then turn to it and even then they need to consume enough to become physically addicted.
I know more about this than most people having been raised by alcoholics. When they choose to pack it in they succeed. They shouldn't be treated like victims as they can get themselves sorted but they have to want to.
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Free will doesn't exist. And there goes your entire argument. You seem very sure of yourself but your entire opinion is based in fantasy.
 
Neon_Knight_

Neon_Knight_

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2011
4,016
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TottenhamMattSpur said:
Do you think a cancer patients would refuse to get better if there was a 100% guaranteed way to do so?

Do you think children would die regularly if
they could choose not to?

That's the difference between addicts and genuine victims of illness. One has a choice and the other doesn't.
Click to expand...

I'm going to assume that your views are due to a lack of understanding (despite your lived experience of alcoholism), but I think it's important that you appreciate how your comments are "enormously disrespectful" to many people.

By your logic, pretty much all mental illness is not actually illness at all, but people making bad choices and refusing to get better. For example, someone with anorexia could choose to eat properly, someone who self-harms due to depression could choose not to, and someone with an anxiety disorder could choose not to worry so much.

There is still a big stigma around mental illness within our culture, with many victims only getting help under section (very much not their choice to seek this help) or due to support from family/friends. This stigma is really not helped by people who are both misinformed and opinionated, as you seem to be.

As someone who has studied neuropharmacology at a cellular and molecular level, and works for a mental health NHS trust, I am not just spouting uninformed opinions here.

There is ongoing debate around whether alcoholism is a "disease", with cases being made for "syndrome" being a more accurate classification. Either way, it is very definitely a mental illness, as classified by the World Health Organisation (if you disagree, feel free to send them a copy of your research paper).
 
Neon_Knight_

Neon_Knight_

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2011
4,016
6,674
TottenhamMattSpur said:
People with mental health issues can choose to take medication and receive counselling and function as an ordinary person. Most of them do. And they're often born that way or something terrible happens to trigger it.

Addicts have the same choice. Except they chose to subject themselves to chemicals that cause a physical dependency. Babies aren't born alcoholics. They grow up then turn to it and even then they need to consume enough to become physically addicted.
I know more about this than most people having been raised by alcoholics. When they choose to pack it in they succeed. They shouldn't be treated like victims as they can get themselves sorted but they have to want to.
Click to expand...

Substance abuse doesn't automatically indicate that someone has an underlying mental illness. Someone who purely has a physical addiction will be far more capable of choosing to "pack it in" and succeeding, than someone with an underlying mental illness that caused them to abuse the substance in the first place.

When someone is mentally ill, their behaviour and "choices" are often physical manifestations of the underlying mental illness. Without the mental illness, that person would not have abused a substance and therefore would not have become addicted to it. Also, people with an addictive personality disorder can actually become mentally dependent on a substance before a physical addiction occurs, so overcoming the addiction is twofold.
 
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