Gazza - new pics - Not good.

[tttcowan]

I'm (first gen) middle class. My dad is a recovering alcoholic. The people I come across who are most understanding about alcoholism are educated middle class people. The people who are the most judgemental and least understanding re mental health are the working classes or older people/dinosaurs in general. I doubt Paul Gascoigne's friends and family in Newcastle would have been terrible receptive to the idea of drinking being a disease. I have no particular affiliation, and not that it matters but it's best not to generalise or analyse in terms of these things because the results are rarely palatable to those that do.

The line between mental health and personality trait is extremely blurred. I think there's a genetic marker that predisposes toward specific addictive behaviour. There are different types of alcoholics as there are people.. there are mental health components, life components but then there are also stupid, selfish traits that exacerbate alcoholics as well. I have met a great many recovering alcoholics, for instance, and almost to a man they will lecture you on life lessons that only they need, and you can see that although they stopped drinking, the real problem remains unchecked - they have that kind of need for a guru, that brings about the same behaviour in them. Cults and pseudo-spiritual groups are full of them.

Anyway, I'm not taking a side; rather, the opposite - I just think it's just as reductionist to lump everything into being a disease as it is scapegoating and blaming people with mental health issues resulting in alcoholism, and actually serves to exempt people from taking responsibility for their actions - such as beating wives, abusing and neglecting children.

I pretty much agree with all of this. The whole disease/not disease mental health/personality trait is pretty much just semantics and therefore pretty irrelevant in my opinion anyway. What you call it doesn't matter but the fact there's something wrong with the individual does. People like things to fit into nicely defined boxes, it's part of being human that we like to have neat names for things but alcoholism is clearly more complex than that.

The point I was trying to make was nobody who posts on here or writes drivel for the Sun is in a position to judge the guy. We just don't know what's going on do we. In Gazzas case maybe nobody does. Perhaps one day we'll fully be able to understand why people abuse drugs but in the meantime it's probably best not to make wild assumptions on what's going on with someone based on what you've heard through the media about a person you've never met.

 

[Japhet]

I had a friend who drank himself to death at 36. The addiction was way more powerful than his will to do anything about it. He always thought he'd be OK. Nobody else did.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

I'm (first gen) middle class. My dad is a recovering alcoholic. The people I come across who are most understanding about alcoholism are educated middle class people. The people who are the most judgemental and least understanding re mental health are the working classes or older people/dinosaurs in general. I doubt Paul Gascoigne's friends and family in Newcastle would have been terrible receptive to the idea of drinking being a disease. I have no particular affiliation, and not that it matters but it's best not to generalise or analyse in terms of these things because the results are rarely palatable to those that do.

The line between mental health and personality trait is extremely blurred. I think there's a genetic marker that predisposes toward specific addictive behaviour. There are different types of alcoholics as there are people.. there are mental health components, life components but then there are also stupid, selfish traits that exacerbate alcoholics as well. I have met a great many recovering alcoholics, for instance, and almost to a man they will lecture you on life lessons that only they need, and you can see that although they stopped drinking, the real problem remains unchecked - they have that kind of need for a guru, that brings about the same behaviour in them. Cults and pseudo-spiritual groups are full of them.

Anyway, I'm not taking a side; rather, the opposite - I just think it's just as reductionist to lump everything into being a disease as it is scapegoating and blaming people with mental health issues resulting in alcoholism, and actually serves to exempt people from taking responsibility for their actions - such as beating wives, abusing and neglecting children.

Are you fucking serious?

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

There's always an option. He just needs someone to point it out.

Cut down on the drink and the world is his oyster.A very tough ask but I'm not giving up on him.

Easy isn't it, you should become a Doctor.

 

[King of Otters]

I'm (first gen) middle class. My dad is a recovering alcoholic. The people I come across who are most understanding about alcoholism are educated middle class people. The people who are the most judgemental and least understanding re mental health are the working classes or older people/dinosaurs in general. I doubt Paul Gascoigne's friends and family in Newcastle would have been terrible receptive to the idea of drinking being a disease. I have no particular affiliation, and not that it matters but it's best not to generalise or analyse in terms of these things because the results are rarely palatable to those that do.

The line between mental health and personality trait is extremely blurred. I think there's a genetic marker that predisposes toward specific addictive behaviour. There are different types of alcoholics as there are people.. there are mental health components, life components but then there are also stupid, selfish traits that exacerbate alcoholics as well. I have met a great many recovering alcoholics, for instance, and almost to a man they will lecture you on life lessons that only they need, and you can see that although they stopped drinking, the real problem remains unchecked - they have that kind of need for a guru, that brings about the same behaviour in them. Cults and pseudo-spiritual groups are full of them.

Anyway, I'm not taking a side; rather, the opposite - I just think it's just as reductionist to lump everything into being a disease as it is scapegoating and blaming people with mental health issues resulting in alcoholism, and actually serves to exempt people from taking responsibility for their actions - such as beating wives, abusing and neglecting children.

Good job on avoiding 'generalised' and 'reductive' arguments there bro.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

Good job on avoiding 'generalised' and 'reductive' arguments there bro.

What I wanna know is, do you get a certificate or a stamp on the back of your hand when you first qualify as (1st gen) middle class.
Or if you just have to fit your own head up your arse.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

Good job on avoiding 'generalised' and 'reductive' arguments there bro.

What I wanna know is, do you get a certificate or a stamp on the back of your hand when you first qualify as (1st gen) middle class.
Or if you just have to fit your own head up your arse.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Lol @ (first gen) middle class

 

[Gbspurs]

What I wanna know is, do you get a certificate or a stamp on the back of your hand when you first qualify as (1st gen) middle class.
Or if you just have to fit your own head up your arse.

This was funnier first time round.

 

[benski]

This was funnier first time round.

Still pretty funny second time though

 

[CosmicHotspur]

Having spent some years in Al-Anon rooms and having known many recovering alcoholics through that channel, as well as my own partner whose recovery was only forced on him after having a stroke that changed him, I can honestly say that problem drinkers and those affected by their behaviour (whether you classify it as an illness or anything else) come from every imaginable walk of life.

Neither addiction nor understanding it are restricted to any class or level of intelligence.

 

[tttcowan]

If anyone fancies watching a really interesting documentary on the subject of drug abuse in sports the 30 for 30 story of Chris Herren is stunning for how in equal parts someone can be so good and yet so troubled. It's amazing someone who can be that good could also be a complete addict.

I just don't think people should judge.

 

[Spurger King]

Easy isn't it, you should become a Doctor.

I'm already a Doctor.

(Although not the medical type )

 

[tttcowan]

If anyone fancies watching a really interesting documentary on the subject of drug abuse in sports the 30 for 30 story of Chris Herren is stunning for how in equal parts someone can be so good and yet so troubled. It's amazing someone who can be that good could also be a complete addict.

I just don't think people should judge.

Chris Herren calls it a disease. Semantics but if that guy says drug addiction is a disease then sorry guys but I'll call it a disease.

Just a little respect guys. Gazza deserves that from us.

Spurs fans owe him that.

 

[johnbowel]

What I wanna know is, do you get a certificate or a stamp on the back of your hand when you first qualify as (1st gen) middle class.
Or if you just have to fit your own head up your arse.

Pathetic. Let me know when you manage to view people without some kind of class bitterness. Half my family is from absolute slums, no money, no hope, no nothing, abusive parents, alcoholism and mental illness in the blood. The other half is from a middle class background. My dad, the recovering alcoholic, got out because of the kind of mentality that defined the people from those areas, not entirely but in general.

But what would I know compared to a couple of kneejerky class complex morons on an internet forum.

 

[whitelanefever]

Having spent some years in Al-Anon rooms and having known many recovering alcoholics through that channel, as well as my own partner whose recovery was only forced on him after having a stroke that changed him, I can honestly say that problem drinkers and those affected by their behaviour (whether you classify if as an illness or anything else) come from every imaginable walk of life.

Neither addiction nor understanding it are restricted to any class or level of intelligence.

I can relate to that, I lived with my ex for 4 years & she was an alcoholic.. doesn't make them have a bad heart.. just no control.. I worked in the music industry at the time & had my own problems.. (not alcohol) but it brings suppressed emotion to the fore.. I don't do regrets however I do wish I had ended things better at the time

 

[Spurger King]

Pathetic. Let me know when you manage to view people without some kind of class bitterness. Half my family is from absolute slums, no money, no hope, no nothing, abusive parents, alcoholism and mental illness in the blood. The other half is from a middle class background. My dad, the recovering alcoholic, got out because of the kind of mentality that defined the people from those areas, not entirely but in general.

But what would I know compared to a couple of kneejerky class complex morons on an internet forum.

Not a lot, apparently.

 

[johnbowel]

Good job on avoiding 'generalised' and 'reductive' arguments there bro.

Original poster - who I have no argument with and agree with subsequent post - generalised those who didn't understand alcoholism on here as being middle class. I understand he was being a bit loose with words because it's annoying when people show a lack of understanding. I simply pointed out, not a generalisation, or a reductionism, that the overwhelming amount of people I have come across who are extremely resistant to the idea of drinking being a disease, come from a drinking culture etc, in 20 years of close association with AA have actually been working class.

It's not a big deal, doesn't mean anything, and I said that it's not worthwhile analysing in terms of class. That wasn't my point - it's just that people who like to do this, for example to scapegoat middle class people for their own failings, are rarely able to cope with the reality. As has just been displayed. This is why I don't bother posting.

 

[eddiev14]

I'm (first gen) middle class. My dad is a recovering alcoholic. The people I come across who are most understanding about alcoholism are educated middle class people. The people who are the most judgemental and least understanding re mental health are the working classes or older people/dinosaurs in general. I doubt Paul Gascoigne's friends and family in Newcastle would have been terrible receptive to the idea of drinking being a disease. I have no particular affiliation, and not that it matters but it's best not to generalise or analyse in terms of these things because the results are rarely palatable to those that do.

The line between mental health and personality trait is extremely blurred. I think there's a genetic marker that predisposes toward specific addictive behaviour. There are different types of alcoholics as there are people.. there are mental health components, life components but then there are also stupid, selfish traits that exacerbate alcoholics as well. I have met a great many recovering alcoholics, for instance, and almost to a man they will lecture you on life lessons that only they need, and you can see that although they stopped drinking, the real problem remains unchecked - they have that kind of need for a guru, that brings about the same behaviour in them. Cults and pseudo-spiritual groups are full of them.

Anyway, I'm not taking a side; rather, the opposite - I just think it's just as reductionist to lump everything into being a disease as it is scapegoating and blaming people with mental health issues resulting in alcoholism, and actually serves to exempt people from taking responsibility for their actions - such as beating wives, abusing and neglecting children.

Thanks for this post.

A member of family has been going through this problem and what you said rings true and I think will help me deal with some of the difficulty I have grappling with their behaviour.

 

[tttcowan]

No idea how this thread became some sort of weird dysfunctional class war thread. I would of thought the concept that one of the heroes of England and Spurs being just as susceptible as everyone else to one of the biggest demons of the western world would make people realise how irrelevant "class" is.

It's sad. It's complicated. It's OK not to understand why one person goes on to host MOTD clean as a whistle and one ends up the gutter asking for anyone to give him a hand up and a fiver for another 4 pack.

But don't look down on him. You owe him and everyone else that's down and out you know fuck all about more than that.