Let's talk about pace

THFC_SWE · Aug 30, 2017

nicdic said:
Liverpool don't play a possession game, they play a counter attacking game, this is why they struggle when teams come and sit deep against them looking to frustrate.

They don't play a possession game? Don't make me laugh. Before you say something like that, look at the stats from last season. Only a Guardiola influenced Manchester City had more possession than Liverpool. Only because they are quick on the counter attack, it doesn't mean they don't play possession football. Yeah, sometimes they have problems with teams sitting deep, but they still play possession football.

1. Manchester City 60.9 %
2. Liverpool 58.3 %
3. Tottenham 57.4 %

Questions?

nicdic · Aug 30, 2017

THFC_SWE said:
They don't play a possession game? Don't make me laugh. Before you say something like that, look at the stats from last season. Only a Guardiola influenced Manchester City had more possession than Liverpool. Only because they are quick on the counter attack, it doesn't mean they don't play possession football.

1. Manchester City 60.9 %
2. Liverpool 58.3 %
3. Tottenham 57.4 %

Questions?

Nice stats, but whilst that shows they see a lot of the ball, that doesn't mean they are a possession based team. Liverpool's whole approach is based on them winning the ball high up the pitch and attacking quickly and exposing defensive vulnerabilities at pace. They are counter-attackers. That doesn't mean they won't see lots of ball, and generally against the poorer teams, the opposition sit back and give over possession to them because they know that they struggle to break down a set and deep defence. Klopp's approach isn't one of possession. It just isn't. They are a high-pressing, counter-attacking outfit, that happens to see a lot of the ball.

THFC_SWE · Aug 30, 2017

nicdic said:
Nice stats, but whilst that shows they see a lot of the ball, that doesn't mean they are a possession based team. Liverpool's whole approach is based on them winning the ball high up the pitch and attacking quickly and exposing defensive vulnerabilities at pace. They are counter-attackers. That doesn't mean they won't see lots of ball, and generally against the poorer teams, the opposition sit back and give over possession to them because they know that they struggle to break down a set and deep defence. Klopp's approach isn't one of possession. It just isn't. They are a high-pressing, counter-attacking outfit, that happens to see a lot of the ball.

We are pressing high aswell, not just as high. Are we a counter attacking team aswell? When you have almost 60 % of the possession over a season, you're a possession based team. You're just using different words for the same thing: "that happens to see a lot of the ball" is the same as possession.

Liverpool like to have possession. And when they don't, they press high to win the ball back. There's a reason why they win the ball high up in the pitch, it's because they control the majority of the games the play. One thing doesn't exclude the other. Only because they like to press high after losing the ball, it deesn't mean that's their only trademark. They play a possession game where they control the games in the oppositions half, and when they lose the ball, they press high to win it back and then go on the counter because they have pace. If they were only a counter attacking team, they would use the same logic as the poorer teams you mentioned, to give over possession. But they don't.

nicdic · Aug 30, 2017

THFC_SWE said:
We are pressing high aswell, not just as high. Are we a counter attacking team aswell? When you have almost 60 % of the possession over a season, you're a possession based team. You're just using different words for the same thing: "that happens to see a lot of the ball" is the same as possession.

Liverpool like to have possession. And when they don't, they press high to win the ball back. There's a reason why they win the ball high up in the pitch, it's because they control the majority of the games the play. One thing doesn't exclude the other. Only because they like to press high after losing the ball, it deesn't mean that's their only trademark. They play a possession game where they control the games in the oppositions half, and when they lose the ball, they press high to win it back and then go on the counter because they have pace. If they were only a counter attacking team, they would use the same logic as the poorer teams you mentioned, to give over possession. But they don't.

No, we're not a counter-attacking team. We press high and look to win the ball back, but then build slowly from the back. Klopp and Pochettino both press high, but play completely differently. Our aim is to have possession, Liverpool's is to counter attack quickly.

Counter-attacking doesn't just look like Leicester's title winning side.

THFC_SWE · Aug 30, 2017

nicdic said:
No, we're not a counter-attacking team. We press high and look to win the ball back, but then build slowly from the back. Klopp and Pochettino both press high, but play completely differently. Our aim is to have possession, Liverpool's is to counter attack quickly.

Counter-attacking doesn't just look like Leicester's title winning side.

But you cant say they're only a counter attacking team when they almost had 60 % of the ball last season. You exclude the possibility to play a possession based game with counter attacking elements in it. Possession football doesn't just look like our possession football.

Liverpool won possession against us twice last year. And we're a possession team. Against other top six teams they won possession 6 times and lost it 4 times (same stats as us). So it's not like they only have possession against poorer teams.

nicdic · Aug 30, 2017

THFC_SWE said:
But you cant say they're only a counter attacking team when they almost had 60 % of the ball last season. You exclude the possibility to play a possession based game with counter attacking elements in it. Possession football doesn't just look like our possession football.

Liverpool won possession against us twice last year. And we're a possession team. Against other top six teams they won possession 6 times and lost it 4 times (same stats as us). So it's not like they only have possession against poorer teams.

You're not reading me. I'm saying there's a difference between having more possession than the opposition, and being a possession based team.

There are nuances.

They are primarily a counter-attacking team, that's their gameplan. That they often do it with overwhelming possession doesn't change that. Their press is to create a counter, not to dominate possession.

We are a possession team, we look to build much more slowly and dominate the ball. Our aim in pressing high is to force the opposition into giving possession back to us to build again. We very rarely look to immediately spring a counter.

THFC_SWE · Aug 30, 2017

nicdic said:
You're not reading me. I'm saying there's a difference between having more possession than the opposition, and being a possession based team.

There are nuances.

They are primarily a counter-attacking team, that's their gameplan. That they often do it with overwhelming possession doesn't change that. Their press is to create a counter, not to dominate possession.

We are a possession team, we look to build much more slowly and dominate the ball. Our aim in pressing high is to force the opposition into giving possession back to us to build again. We very rarely look to immediately spring a counter.

And I don't agree with you and I never will. You exclude the possibility of playing possession football in a different way than we do. It's just wrong to say that they don't play possession football. Both teams play possession football, but what happens after we lose the ball is different compared to them. Both teams aimsto press high after losing the ball in the opposition third. And the high pressing is a by-product of having possession in the the opposition third. When we lose the ball, it's just like you say, we press high to force the opposition into giving possession back to us to build again. When Liverpool lose the ball, they press high to force the opposition into giving possession back so they can counter. But this doesn't mean they're primarily a counter-attacking team.

A gameplan is never built upon losing the ball to the opposition. Winning the ball back in the opposition third/high up in the pitch is just a by-product of having a lot of possession. So no, Liverpool is npt primarily a counter-attacking team. They're a possession based team that uses high pressing to win the ball back and then counter because they have the players to do it.

Quotes from Klopp:

"It's not only high pressure and counter-pressing. We're a ball-possession team but it makes sense that when you have the ball and lose it, you have an idea of what you can do to get it back".

"The best moment to win the ball is immediately after your team just lost it (after having possession). The opponent is still looking for orientation where to pass the ball. He will have taken his eyes off the game to make his tackle or interception and he will have expended energy. Both make him vulnerable.”

He just having a different approach to what the team should do after they win the ball back. But they're still a possession based team, no question about it. He says it himself and the stats says the same.

danielneeds · Aug 30, 2017

We scored the most goals last season and conceded the least -
So surely the basic make up of our side isn't that bad.

I'm not fussed about real speedsters, but we could do with a player who can drop the shoulder and dribble in tight spaces when we've run out of ideas as a team, as does happens on occasion.

double0 · Aug 30, 2017

It is a bit awkward to pigeon Liverpool style of play having seen their possession stats they play with burst of pace predominantly on the counter imo as Klopp said heavy metal football. It looks good but theres a lot of flaws over a season.

Pochettinho sytle at its best, is magnificent as is Man C Liverpool Man U even Arsenal.

Our style is a much more fluid powerful game.... Im not knocking Liverpool (can't stand their entitled self-catering fans) their not far off, with a more solid defence they could go places.

I guess our discussions about Liverpool has got us worried slightly but I trust our style and Pochettinho's methodology.

nicdic · Aug 31, 2017

THFC_SWE said:
And I don't agree with you and I never will. You exclude the possibility of playing possession football in a different way than we do. It's just wrong to say that they don't play possession football. Both teams play possession football, but what happens after we lose the ball is different compared to them. Both teams aimsto press high after losing the ball in the opposition third. And the high pressing is a by-product of having possession in the the opposition third. When we lose the ball, it's just like you say, we press high to force the opposition into giving possession back to us to build again. When Liverpool lose the ball, they press high to force the opposition into giving possession back so they can counter. But this doesn't mean they're primarily a counter-attacking team.

A gameplan is never built upon losing the ball to the opposition. Winning the ball back in the opposition third/high up in the pitch is just a by-product of having a lot of possession. So no, Liverpool is npt primarily a counter-attacking team. They're a possession based team that uses high pressing to win the ball back and then counter because they have the players to do it.

Quotes from Klopp:

"It's not only high pressure and counter-pressing. We're a ball-possession team but it makes sense that when you have the ball and lose it, you have an idea of what you can do to get it back".

"The best moment to win the ball is immediately after your team just lost it (after having possession). The opponent is still looking for orientation where to pass the ball. He will have taken his eyes off the game to make his tackle or interception and he will have expended energy. Both make him vulnerable.”

He just having a different approach to what the team should do after they win the ball back. But they're still a possession based team, no question about it. He says it himself and the stats says the same.

This is the crux. They press for counter, we press for possession. We primarily work for possession, they primarily work for counter. That's my point. I'm not discounting that they have lots of possession, they do, clearly. But I won't agree that they set up or go out with the intention of dominating possession. They go out with the intention and set up to spring quick counters.

AnotherSpursFan · Aug 31, 2017

Whatever it is, Liverpools attack combined with our defence will wib the epl

double0 · Aug 31, 2017

AnotherSpursFan said:
Whatever it is, Liverpools attack combined with our defence will wib the epl

But we scored more goals than them last season ...and I bet we score more this season too.

Arsenal were a disgrace

nicdic · Aug 31, 2017

double0 said:
But we scored more goals than them last season ...and I bet we score more this season too.

Arsenal were a disgrace

BUT RUNNING REALLY REALLY FAST!!!!!!

ultimateloner · Aug 31, 2017

Given our setup the following attributes would be what I look for in attacking players (in order):

1) Protect the ball in final 3rd
2) Willingness to run the channels
3) Shooting
4) Can pick players out.
5) Pace

We build from the back, so we need players who can receive and use the ball in the final third of the pitch. All our players need to be able to contribute in build-up play. That's essential.

Sissoko screams power and pace, but he doesn't display the above consistently.

THFC_SWE · Aug 31, 2017

nicdic said:
This is the crux. They press for counter, we press for possession. We primarily work for possession, they primarily work for counter. That's my point. I'm not discounting that they have lots of possession, they do, clearly. But I won't agree that they set up or go out with the intention of dominating possession. They go out with the intention and set up to spring quick counters.

I don't think we will agree with each other. I see winning the ball back as by-product from losing possession, not as a gameplan. I don't think losing the ball can be a gameplan. It can be a part of the gameplan, after losing possession. And Klopp himself said that they are a possession team and that they want to dominate possession (and the stats shows it) That's enough for me.

I think you have seperate possession from pressing without the ball. Plan A is to dominate the other team in possession, something Klopp and Poch like to do. What happens after you lose the ball is plan B, and this is the pressing. You don't plan to lose the ball. I know Klopp is crazy, but it's not like he says: Ok guys, lets give the ball away so we can win it back and counter.

Only because we act different after we win the ball back, it doesn't mean that we are a possession team and they are not. Leicester on the other hand is a counter-attacking team. Because they sit back and counter. Liverpool don't

tot · Sep 1, 2017

its mitigated a bit with the signing of aurier, but its still the left wing i feel we are short in. i think signings like gkn and njie are testament to that. especially at wembley, somebody who can legitmatly stretch the pitch is hugely beneficial. son, as great as he is, wants to get in the box and score goals. this is fine, but overload when your team is decked out with kane, alli and eriksen who all also want to get to goal (or in eriksens case, get central to set things up.)

and maybe its just a bit of greediness on my part, i just would fell better looking to the bench and seeing somebody who can change the game, not a game changer as a player, but in the tactical sense. llorente solves this upfront, but when i see gkn on the bench when we need a goal i cringe a little. (marcus edwards!!)

and lastly, and i think something that has been underrated, this squad is going to tire this season. playing every game at wembley is going to have an accumulative effect. this will lead to burnout, (in a WC year which will be on their minds) and injuries. i dont think there can be the poch way of you have you 9 guys and rotate the other 5. a pacey wideman isnt something we have, so instead of banking another guy who likes to play in central areas a wide man who adds squad depth, and the option for tactical change, ticks all the boxes for me.

Tucker · Sep 1, 2017

danielneeds said:
We scored the most goals last season and conceded the least -
So surely the basic make up of our side isn't that bad.

I'm not fussed about real speedsters, but we could do with a player who can drop the shoulder and dribble in tight spaces when we've run out of ideas as a team, as does happens on occasion.

I don't think anyone's saying we haven't done well the last few seasons, but I think it's clear that we need someone to change things up when they don't go our way. Maybe the Llorente battering ram will be that game changer, but it would be good to have someone to help us hit people on the break.

danielneeds · Sep 1, 2017

Tucker said:
I don't think anyone's saying we haven't done well the last few seasons, but I think it's clear that we need someone to change things up when they don't go our way. Maybe the Llorente battering ram will be that game changer, but it would be good to have someone to help us hit people on the break.

But usually when we're struggling to score it's because we're hogging the ball and the other team are camped infront of their box, so this counter-attacking player is a fallacy. We do need more competition in the creative midfielder positions, it's true, let's hope Edwards can steer clear of injury and gives Poch something to think about in the league cup.

Tucker · Sep 1, 2017

danielneeds said:
But usually when we're struggling to score it's because we're hogging the ball and the other team are camped infront of their box, so this counter-attacking player is a fallacy. We do need more competition in the creative midfielder positions, it's true, let's hope Edwards can steer clear of injury and gives Poch something to think about in the league cup.

Why has Poch been so desperate to fill that spot then. N'Jie, N'Koudou, Sissoko, Zaha, Balde. All players we've either signed or tried to sign. All pacy wing forwards. It's clearly an area he wants to improve.

danielneeds · Sep 1, 2017

Tucker said:
Why has Poch been so desperate to fill that spot then. N'Jie, N'Koudou, Sissoko, Zaha, Balde. All players we've either signed or tried to sign. All pacy wing forwards. It's clearly an area he wants to improve.

I'm sure he wants a player to give him a different option in attacking players - ideally someone with pace and power like Zaha or Mane. But the point remains, pace on the counter isn't going to help us when we're trying to unlock a bus parker.

Ironically it's the pace of Aurier and Sanchez at the back which will probably see us play even higher up the pitch and look to compact the game into a smaller space, and score from quick transitions.

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