Same old problems, same old story

kitchen said:

Sure technique is the most important factor in football but let's not try and pretend that pace isn't a huge asset to any attacking team. Ronaldo and Messi would be half the players they are without their pace... How do you get around a 10 man defence without movement? 1 touch passing won't open anyone up if the player can't get space away from their marker. They'll simply end up 1 touch passing the ball backwards. If a player has rapid acceleration and finds that little bit of space in the area or in behind the back line then it will create more goalscoring opportunities.

Technique is the most important factor in football, but when combined with pace and movement it's the most devastating. A team of Michael Carricks ( great technique but very slow) will score less than a team of Rahim Sterlings (questionable technique but great pace and movement ) across a season. They'd concede less too but you get my point.

I've already made this point but the reason City are so good is searing pace and movement in the front 3 and fabulous technique in the midfield.

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Shadydan said:

A team of Raheem Sterling's wold find it difficult to spot a pass and have the vision and technique to execute it.

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Mullers said:

I hate to think what the op would be, if we had lost.

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thfc1973 said:

This is thfc1973. This is his achilles heal. He has no great game knowledge or in-game knowledge or ability to open up threads.
This is typical!

Fact. He's just not good enough. Whether he needs more time and experience with other clubs to gain more insight or appreciation I cant say, but for us, he will never drive us to thread success.

He's just not astute enough, just not tactically aware enough and just not clever enough.

The reality is we're stuck with him for now. And until we move into the new stadium and maybe give him 1 year after that to get us settled we wont swap him for another poster I reckon. That's not my personal choice, as I'd like to amicably part with him at the end of this season (if not sooner!) and get in a poster I feel who could get us to the next level, beit a RayShady or another A&C or even BoF, but my feeling is we will have to get used to his knee-jerk threads again for a few more years, see our best posters leave and another wave of a new breed of young exciting posters being brought in to replace them or come through the ranks to give us optimism.

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thfc1973 said:

Every season, at critical moments when it starts to count most we fail to deliver. Playing against teams with 10 men behind the ball we have an abundance of possession with no reward, no bite, no meaningful goal to reward it.

Guardiola once said when asked about this type of football that Barcelona played at the time (possession based football) he said he doesn't relate to that as he said its meaningless if you just pass and pass and pass with no result. And so he was saying his justification was that there was always an end result, a goal or goals that win you the game.

And that is exactly what we are like. We pass and pass and pass and we're useless with the ball. We cant penetrate teams and beat them when they defend. We have no game plan. No other tactics, apart from pass and pass and hope they make a mistake. That's the difference between a manager like Poch and Pep.

This is Poch. This is his achilles heal. He has no great game plan or in-game tactics or ability to open up teams, change it up to get us doing something different that will make a difference unless the game (conceding a goal) forces him or us to. Sitting there watching the game I cant help but feel why after half time the impetus, the game plan and tactics didn't change? It always takes a goal against us to get us to respond. This is typical!

I've said it before, but the fact remains. Poch isn't a great manager. He's a good manager but not a great manager. The level we are at, is the best we will get from him, regardless of the players we bring in (unless we had world class players who could win you games).

He's alright, he's a true Spurs loving manager, he sees the club philosophy and the ambition and he wants it so bad..But he'll never deliver us a major trophy. Fact. He's just not good enough. Whether he needs more time and experience with other clubs to gain more insight or appreciation I cant say, but for us, he will never drive us to trophy success.

He's just not astute enough, just not tactically aware enough and just not clever enough.

The reality is we're stuck with him for now. And until we move into the new stadium and maybe give him 1 year after that to get us settled we wont swap him for another manager I reckon. That's not my personal choice, as I'd like to amicably part with him at the end of this season and get in a manager I feel who could get us to the next level, beit a Conte or an Enrique or Simeone, but my feeling is we will have to get used to playing Europa league again for a few more years, see our best players leave and another wave of a new breed of young exciting players being brought in to replace them or come through the ranks to give us optimism.

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Spurs72 said:

OK Lukespurs thanks for that, I guess in my book your the pot that called the Kettle black because I don't have the same opinion as you , you will sit there and call people names because yeah that will get a point across 100% , I have 1 opinion you have another end of discussion.

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Spurs' Pipe Dreams said:

Ways to beat 11 behind the ball

Long/direct ball to the striker (Allardyce/Mourinho) - Can be effective if you have a Crouch or a Carroll but the striker tends to be crowded out by 2 or 3 defenders and you have to be always looking for the 2nd ball with AM's and/or a 2nd striker

Fast one or two touch passing (Wenger/Guardiola) - Can be effective especially if you have highly skilled strikers and AM'ers, and good movement between the 4/5 of them, you have to be able to move players out of position and create space. Can be effectively nullified with a disciplined back line and great communication between them.

Wingers (Moyes/Klopp) - Not really used in today's game but previous exponents include the Sir Alex and Beckham/Giggs it's about beating the RB/LB with either the ball or taking it around the player and the cross is key with strikers needing to get goal side of the defenders. Can be stopped with a competent LB or doubling up on the wingers, stopping the supply line coming in

Switching play and recycling (Mourinho/Guardiola/Wenger) - Used to move the defenders out of position, either by drawing them out (recycling) and get them to chase the ball, to create space between the back 4/5 and mid 5/4 and use that space or by switching play to the other side (switching) create that space between the outlying players and the centre again by drawing out the players, it can also tire a defence as they are constantly repositioning. Stopped by being positionally disciplined

Ball carrying midfielders (Wenger) - Having a creative midfielder is key, someone who can dribble around a player and break the midfield line, drawing the back line out and hopefully creating space for runners behind. Problems it is high risk, lose the ball in the middle of the park and you are facing a break straight against your back line.

There are more obviously but I can honestly say that we tried all of the above against the Spammers (well apart from ball carrying, without a fit Dembele that's difficult), get an early goal and the game opens up, unfortunately sometimes that early goal just doesn't come, so rinse, recycle repeat is the name of the game and maybe we should have had more shots from distance but that is low percentage football and most modern managers try to avoid resorting to that.

Feel free to rip me apart, but my main point is that when a team comes to sit and plays for the draw it is a great leveller of ability and is why so many teams do it against us, it's because we're really good and 90% of the teams can't compete with us on a purely footballing level.

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dontcallme said:

I agree with the gist. But someone put up a stat yesterday showing that we are breaking down the bus parkers worse than any of the other top six sides this season.

I love Poch and believe he is the best manager we've had in 27 years of me supporting the club.

But I do believe he has made a mistake by concentrating on powerhouses in the deeper midfield positions than intelligent passers.

I remember in our 0-0 with Swansea they were hard to breakdown. But there were a couple of times when they committed a few players forward, we won the ball with an opportunity to break but our midfielder played a sideways pass, then another and the opposition had regrouped and got back in position.

This has happened regularly this season and it comes down to our midfielders not being good passers. That was Poch's choice.

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Lighty64 said:

that wasn't Poch's fault, that was the players, we are not playing Subbuteo. when on the pitch it's the players that decide the passing, and when to shoot.

I was angry the ref turned away 4 pen appeals, which had nothing to do with any plan B or when subs where made. the spam player blocked everything and threw themselves in front of everything, or sometimes their keeper got in the way. had 1 of those chances gone in they would of had to come out, and we would of most probably hit them for 6.

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dontcallme said:

It's not the players fault if passing is not one of their strengths. Poch has chosen powerhouses to dominate the ball. It was his choice not to buy and play passers in that position.

I agree we could have beaten Swansea. We should have had two penalties. But that does not change the fact that we did a very poor job of breaking them down that day.

This has happened on other occasions this season.

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Lighty64 said:

but Poch can only sign the players that our dear leader will pay the money for. Mane took a look round our training ground, but chose Liverpool because they could afford to pay an extra 60k a week.

until we can match Liverpool and Arse at least on the wages we will always be the weaker option for players to sign for 1 of the top 6.

we should of had 1 of the 4 pen appeals against Spam also. he most probably chose Sissoko because Wanyama wasn't fully fit, Dembele isn't, and not sure Winks is either. we had just played 48hrs earlier, so other than bringing in a youth and chancing them in a game that usually is quite heated, Sissoko was most probably the best option.

we also need to understand spam don't usually park the bus as much v us, under Bilic they usually attempted to try and cross the halfway line

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dontcallme said:

I'm not talking about money. We paid £30m for Sissoko and play him DM. Are you honestly saying we couldn't buy a player who can play deep with a better range of passing than Sissoko for £30m?

I am not asking us to spend huge money. What I am saying is it very clear to everyone that Poch does have some say in the players we urchase. He has clearly identified very physical powerhouses for the deep lying positions.

I have nothing against Sissoko but to break down teams passing the bus we need passers. Injuries will occur but at the moment we simply don't have a good choice of passers from deep.

This is die to the type of players Poch wants, not due to Levy not opening the chequebook.

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Lighty64 said:

we bought Sissoko on the back of a very good Euro's, yes I'm gutted as I liked the player I saw play for France. Had Isco said yes I doubt we would of signed him

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Spurs' Pipe Dreams said:

Ways to beat 11 behind the ball

Long/direct ball to the striker (Allardyce/Mourinho) - Can be effective if you have a Crouch or a Carroll but the striker tends to be crowded out by 2 or 3 defenders and you have to be always looking for the 2nd ball with AM's and/or a 2nd striker

Fast one or two touch passing (Wenger/Guardiola) - Can be effective especially if you have highly skilled strikers and AM'ers, and good movement between the 4/5 of them, you have to be able to move players out of position and create space. Can be effectively nullified with a disciplined back line and great communication between them.

Wingers (Moyes/Klopp) - Not really used in today's game but previous exponents include the Sir Alex and Beckham/Giggs it's about beating the RB/LB with either the ball or taking it around the player and the cross is key with strikers needing to get goal side of the defenders. Can be stopped with a competent LB or doubling up on the wingers, stopping the supply line coming in

Switching play and recycling (Mourinho/Guardiola/Wenger) - Used to move the defenders out of position, either by drawing them out (recycling) and get them to chase the ball, to create space between the back 4/5 and mid 5/4 and use that space or by switching play to the other side (switching) create that space between the outlying players and the centre again by drawing out the players, it can also tire a defence as they are constantly repositioning. Stopped by being positionally disciplined

Ball carrying midfielders (Wenger) - Having a creative midfielder is key, someone who can dribble around a player and break the midfield line, drawing the back line out and hopefully creating space for runners behind. Problems it is high risk, lose the ball in the middle of the park and you are facing a break straight against your back line.

There are more obviously but I can honestly say that we tried all of the above against the Spammers (well apart from ball carrying, without a fit Dembele that's difficult), get an early goal and the game opens up, unfortunately sometimes that early goal just doesn't come, so rinse, recycle repeat is the name of the game and maybe we should have had more shots from distance but that is low percentage football and most modern managers try to avoid resorting to that.

Feel free to rip me apart, but my main point is that when a team comes to sit and plays for the draw it is a great leveller of ability and is why so many teams do it against us, it's because we're really good and 90% of the teams can't compete with us on a purely footballing level.

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