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The England Thread

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2003
9,263
11,308
It’s not that attacking if the full backs don’t bomb on. And under Southgate they don’t tend to.
I think it’s worth exploring; it takes away the problem of ‘the other midfielder’ which I think is going to be our biggest issue. He will continue to play Henderson/Phillips/Gallagher rather than try something different and I think it will cost us big time.
This is why GHod and Tel were so good in my opinion with Christmas tree formations and tactics, even Gary Neville was made to look like a competent wing back under them!
Its all about being tactically astute and flexible but unfortunately Southgate isn’t, I do wonder though if that’s because he was a CB so his mindset is naturally more defensive.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2003
9,263
11,308
The midfield was unbalanced and the attack wasn’t actually that good. He had Rooney in 2004, but other than that a past it Owen and the likes of Vassell, Heskey and crouch. Relative to the other top teams rather have Southgate’s position for sure
Nothing wrong with crouchy at England level, 22 in 42 for him, thought he got binned off a bit sooner than what he should have been as no one knew how to deal with him!
 

Misfit

President of The Niles Crane Fanclub
May 7, 2006
21,246
34,908
If a relative no name like Carsley (had no idea he went into coaching) comes in and shows he at least knows how to utilise the talents he has in the England squad then those issues will pass relatively quickly. Kind of like the international equivalent of Ange if you will.

Southgate hardly had a stellar managerial career himself before given the caretaker job and lucking his way into his last top level gig IMO.
 

spurs9

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
11,893
34,371
Yeah and that already gets levelled at Southgate, having come through the ranks but then his vanilla personality doesn't help either.

It's going to be a tough job to select the next manager.
Easy decision. A lot of people lamenting that Harry Redknapp never got the job, but why have the main, when you can have the pudding.

Screenshot_2024-03-25-16-48-54-71_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg
 

Thenewcat

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
3,034
10,481
Nothing wrong with crouchy at England level, 22 in 42 for him, thought he got binned off a bit sooner than what he should have been as no one knew how to deal with him!
I love crouchy but he was nowhere near the level required to be winning international tournaments. He got 4 England goals away from home, and scored very few against top opposition (his last England goal was a friendly vs France, other than that he had one against Croatia then his next toughest was Ukraine). He’s not exactly harry kane is he?
 

spursville

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2019
776
1,214
I think Bellingham is more than capable of playing CM alongside Rice.
After that though, yeah, we are beginning to scratch around a bit.
If we play Bellingham alongside Rice then we have to hope that he can take the ball in tight spaces, control the game from that position and also get forward to make things happen. I know he's a world class 10 but I don't know if he can play deeper and still shine. It might be a waste of his talent. However, that's where he would have to play in order to get Foden in the team as a 10. Foden is a bit wasted out wide. I'm not even sure Rice is really a world class sic who can receive the ball in tight spaces etc. to the level of Modric or Xavi for example. Mainoo should have got more minutes. Barkley may even have been worth a try as a deep lying playmaker. Gallagher can press but doesn't have enough quality. Henderson may be past it. So yes, we have issues in central midfield - not to mention central defence! Southgate seems to have ambled towards this situation (along with what to do if Kane is injured). It's quitel late to be sorting out the spine of a team!
 

tobi

Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose
Jun 10, 2003
17,547
11,749
Bellingham shouldn't play as a #10 for England because it'll just be a repeat of this game, they pass him the ball and expect him to do typical #10 things.

He should play as an #8 with licence to roam, It's easy to forget that's what he was before this season and he was very, very good at it.

The Real Madrid squad required something different (no main striker) and (together with Vinius Jr) he's learning and excelling in a new position.

Foden is wasted on the right in this setup so England need a genuine alternative (preferably someone with a similar attributes) to Saka when he's not available.

Rashford can't offer an alternative on the left because he plays with his head down. Grealish has done nothing of note this season and probably wouldn't start anyway. Foden on the left doesn't work.

Who is there (on either as side) that can be a serious contender to start if Saka isn't playing?
 

IfiHadTheWings

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2013
3,667
11,630
Bellingham shouldn't play as a #10 for England because it'll just be a repeat of this game, they pass him the ball and expect him to do typical #10 things.

He should play as an #8 with licence to roam, It's easy to forget that's what he was before this season and he was very, very good at it.

The Real Madrid squad required something different (no main striker) and (together with Vinius Jr) he's learning and excelling in a new position.

Foden is wasted on the right in this setup so England need a genuine alternative (preferably someone with a similar attributes) to Saka when he's not available.

Rashford can't offer an alternative on the left because he plays with his head down. Grealish has done nothing of note this season and probably wouldn't start anyway. Foden on the left doesn't work.

Who is there (on either as side) that can be a serious contender to start if Saka isn't playing?
Bowen?
 

thebenjamin

Well-Known Member
Jul 1, 2008
12,268
38,973
Surely play Rice holding with Bellingham and Maddison as roaming 8s. Foden left and Saka right. And H up top. Creativity and goals everywhere.
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
22,155
79,696
Surely play Rice holding with Bellingham and Maddison as roaming 8s. Foden left and Saka right. And H up top. Creativity and goals everywhere.
The problem is Southgate is a 'structure' first kind of coach.

The defensive stability should be there first and then you build on that.

But that means you have to have elite attackers in their best position AND be very good tactically.

Souhtgate isn't tactically sound enouhg and he keeps putting players in weaker positions.

But I agree, you could put out a team designed to attack and still have enough defensively
 

brasil_spur

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2006
12,710
16,808
I've said it before but I don't think this England team will win anything because there isn't enough quality in central midfield and in central defence. You can change the manager all you want but you just don't have the quality in those positions and they are pretty vital against the really good teams. Very good in attacking areas of course which should see them through many of the average sides and get them to a quarter or semi-final but I just don't see them going the next step.
LOL.

Bellingham is the best player in the world right now in his position and there's a good argument to make about Rice, albeit maybe he's more like top 5.

Between the remaining options of: Gallagher, Maddison, Mainoo and TAA there's enough quality and versatility of playing positions for the 3rd to be a top class player too.

But I agree in terms of defense, with Walker being the only real player of world class quality in the whole squad right now.
 

ItsBoris

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,900
9,307
Basically saying the problem is you need a player like Gallagher in midfield to make the counter press effective, but at Chelsea he does that in the #10 position, not in a double pivot. But then you need Bellingham further forward because of his goalscoring threat. So 4-2-3-1 works best for Bellingham, but Gallagher would be better in a 4-3-3.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
19,511
330,451
If we play Bellingham alongside Rice then we have to hope that he can take the ball in tight spaces, control the game from that position and also get forward to make things happen. I know he's a world class 10 but I don't know if he can play deeper and still shine. It might be a waste of his talent. However, that's where he would have to play in order to get Foden in the team as a 10. Foden is a bit wasted out wide. I'm not even sure Rice is really a world class sic who can receive the ball in tight spaces etc. to the level of Modric or Xavi for example. Mainoo should have got more minutes. Barkley may even have been worth a try as a deep lying playmaker. Gallagher can press but doesn't have enough quality. Henderson may be past it. So yes, we have issues in central midfield - not to mention central defence! Southgate seems to have ambled towards this situation (along with what to do if Kane is injured). It's quitel late to be sorting out the spine of a team!
Well considering he's only really been played as an out and out 10 since the start of this season, I think it's fair to say he can play as an 8 as that was his always his position and the one that saw him burst onto the scene and make Madrid come in for him in the first place.
 

McFlash

In the corner, eating crayons.
Oct 19, 2005
12,902
46,132
It's quitel late to be sorting out the spine of a team!
And that's why Southgate needed to change things up a while ago, instead of sticking with the likes of Henderson and Phillips he needed to adapt to the young talent we have pushing through.

It's only late now because Southgate has dithered with no plan for the future.
 

spursville

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2019
776
1,214
Well considering he's only really been played as an out and out 10 since the start of this season, I think it's fair to say he can play as an 8 as that was his always his position and the one that saw him burst onto the scene and make Madrid come in for him in the first place.
Yes, but is that position going to make the most of his talent? Lack of positive planning from Southgate and an unwillingness to use or coach Foden in a more central position has left us in a bit of a pickle. I'm all for picking a team rather than players who are individually better but options such as Gallagher are a bit of a step down. I realise fluid, attacking football is difficult to achieve at international level but I struggle to recall a time when the team didn't play with itself. I'd like to see them let off the leash a bit.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
19,511
330,451
Yes, but is that position going to make the most of his talent? Lack of positive planning from Southgate and an unwillingness to use or coach Foden in a more central position has left us in a bit of a pickle. I'm all for picking a team rather than players who are individually better but options such as Gallagher are a bit of a step down. I realise fluid, attacking football is difficult to achieve at international level but I struggle to recall a time when the team didn't play with itself. I'd like to see them let off the leash a bit.
Historically one of England's biggest problems, especially during the 2000's was focusing more about fitting in individuals and not about what was best for the team. Personally I don't give a monkey's whether it gets the very best out of Bellingham as long as the team as a whole benefits from it. Bellingham is 100% better in that 8 role than anything else we have available. IMO the step up from Gallagher or Henderson to Bellingham as an 8 is far greater the drop off from Bellingham to Maddison or Foden as a 10. I don't think it's even debatable to be honest.
 
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