Aaron Lennon - We MUST keep him.

[remember91]

I'm obviously Bias.

A few clips from 2008 season:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5biLMX6rE

I think people exaggerate how bad his season was. He always turns up in the big games. Just needs more consistency.

He's only 21. Give him 2 more years atleast. :clap:

Checked out the youtube, i'm probably wrong, but I think that Tom Huddlestone might have made that video. The guy who made it is called huddtom. I remember somewhere huddlestone saying that in his spare time he liked making videos. The videos that that user has made are all of Huddlestone and Lennon (whom I think is his best friend at WHL), and he names him as huddz (his myspace name if I remember correclty from another SC thread) and Lennon as Azza - and I've never heard any spurs fans call him azza so it might be his nickname among friends. Just a theory so shoot me down when i'm proven wrong. Bit spooky, they might be reading this now, maybe.

 

[Allen]

I totally agree :clap:. If he can just work on and improve his final ball he would be Englands 1st choice RW.

...Not very difficult, and at present not the most credible measure I'd dare say.
I think there's a lot from the heart and not the head on this one. How much more excuses can be made for Lennon? He has been found out, he doesn't have much to his game, his intellegence (with regards to finding space or knowing when to play it simple and quickly) is very questionable I feel.
Bentley and SWP much better players for me. If decent money is offered I'd take it.
I hope he prove me wrong next season.

 

[joey55]

I think the most clear thing from that video is that nearly all of Lennon's good work comes from break away situtations when he can use his pace to stretch the opposition. He has suffered in the same way Darren Bent has suffered. Bent is arguably the best striker in the Prem at playing off the shoulder of the last man, but to do this, as with Lennon, he needs to be released early. Since Carrick left we have badly lacked a midfielder who can play an early forward pass and this has had a really negative impact on Lennon's game. Jol made some interesting comments regarding Carrick before the CL final. He said:

"Carrick, who yesterday signed a new four-year deal, is United’s master-mind because he often wins back possession with his interceptions and gets the ball upfield quickly, passing into areas where his attackers are moving. He makes the hardest pass in football - the forward ball - look easy. When I had him at Spurs, every attack started with him and he was the reason we should have got into the Champions League after holding fourth place for seven months in 2005-06. Since he went to United they have won the title twice. Ferguson shares my opinions about his quality, even if others in England underrate him. He sees, he passes, and hits the ball with the right speed into the right area for his teammate. It’s a sudden flash of inspiration in his brain. It’s genius."

The bits I've highlighted are really significant when discussing Lennon's form or lack of development over the last two seasons. I think when he went to the WC in 2006 we all thought he'd go on to be a major force in the Prem, which hasn't really happened. But, in that time we've not had that player like Carrick who will get the ball forward early. We often mention how much we miss Carrick protecting the back 4 and mention our poor deffensive record since he left, but Berbatov's brilliance has often disguised how much we've missed him in an attacking sense and how much players like Lennon have been affected.

The Hudd could be that player and can certainly play good early passes, but is young and these players tend to develop later. Hopefully Modric with his vision and passing can bring out the best in Lennon and Bent. If we were also to sign a replacement for Carrick, then I'm sure we'd see a much more effective Lennon.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think the most clear thing from that video is that nearly all of Lennon's good work comes from break away situtations when he can use his pace to stretch the opposition. He has suffered in the same way Darren Bent has suffered. Bent is arguably the best striker in the Prem at playing off the shoulder of the last man, but to do this, as with Lennon, he needs to be released early. Since Carrick left we have badly lacked a midfielder who can play an early forward pass and this has had a really negative impact on Lennon's game. Jol made some interesting comments regarding Carrick before the CL final. He said:

"Carrick, who yesterday signed a new four-year deal, is United’s master-mind because he often wins back possession with his interceptions and gets the ball upfield quickly, passing into areas where his attackers are moving. He makes the hardest pass in football - the forward ball - look easy. When I had him at Spurs, every attack started with him and he was the reason we should have got into the Champions League after holding fourth place for seven months in 2005-06. Since he went to United they have won the title twice. Ferguson shares my opinions about his quality, even if others in England underrate him. He sees, he passes, and hits the ball with the right speed into the right area for his teammate. It’s a sudden flash of inspiration in his brain. It’s genius."

The bits I've highlighted are really significant when discussing Lennon's form or lack of development over the last two seasons. I think when he went to the WC in 2006 we all thought he'd go on to be a major force in the Prem, which hasn't really happened. But, in that time we've not had that player like Carrick who will get the ball forward early. We often mention how much we miss Carrick protecting the back 4 and mention our poor deffensive record since he left, but Berbatov's brilliance has often disguised how much we've missed him in an attacking sense and how much players like Lennon have been affected.

The Hudd could be that player and can certainly play good early passes, but is young and these players tend to develop later. Hopefully Modric with his vision and passing can bring out the best in Lennon and Bent. If we were also to sign a replacement for Carrick, then I'm sure we'd see a much more effective Lennon.

Kind of bizare then that Lennon actually turned in far better stats the season he played without Carrick then the previous season with Carrick. More passes, more accurate passes, more chnaces created and double the assists.

Seems he managed to see more of the ball and in better places than when Carrick was around. Possibly because Jol wasn't genius enough to utilise Carrick's "Genius" eh ?

 

[C0YS]

Kind of bizare then that Lennon actually turned in far better stats the season he played without Carrick then the previous season with Carrick. More passes, more accurate passes, more chnaces created and double the assists.

Seems he managed to see more of the ball and in better places than when Carrick was around. Possibly because Jol wasn't genius enough to utilise Carrick's "Genius" eh ?

You missed the important stat, double the mins on the pitch :wink:

 

[C0YS]

I'd love to have the Lennon of 2 years ago. If you look closely,his waistline had thickened in the past year and he was not as quick as he used to be. I think all the drinking and partying is taking its toll.

I seem to have notice the same with Rooney. He could scarcely run in the CL Final.

The most logical explanation for bouth of them losing pace, is that when you get injured, they work you on rowing machines ect. ect. Sometimes these players bulk up their upper half of their body losing speed. Happened to Defoe, happened to Owen.

 

[General Levy]

I'd love to have the Lennon of 2 years ago. If you look closely,his waistline had thickened in the past year and he was not as quick as he used to be. I think all the drinking and partying is taking its toll.

I seem to have notice the same with Rooney. He could scarcely run in the CL Final.

WALOB!

You read that he's out partying and then you take it as gospel. I'm sure that there are club rules and that Lennon abides to them. Also, under Ramos, I would assume that he would have become more fitter NOT fatter. Also, his perceived weight gain is more likely muscle gain as he is maturing into adult hood.

 

[Paq]

2 Points.

If Lennon was the same player he is now but played at another club, I think we'd all be wanting to sign him, I can imagin the thread - He's 21, plays on either wing, blistering pace and destroyed chelsea in last seasons fa cup semi. Needs to work on his crossing but we should defo sign him.

Secondly, for such a young lad, he's had an enormous amount of responsibility, and has played pretty much every game he's been fit, due to our lack of wide options, and I think this season he's ended up out burnt out and out of form.

I know some people are getting a bit light headed with all the transfer gossip, but to sell one of our most promising youngster is just silly, althouh getting another wide player to take the pressure off of him, might be a sly move.

This post is bang on imo. Lennon has undoubted talent but we rely on him too much. If Lennon was at Man U, Blue / Red scum or even Liverpool, he'd be brought on gradually - maybe play in the cups or as an impact sub. Because he's with us and we have lower standards than those clubs, we play him week in week out, then when his form dips we get on his back which effects the best of players - not least young players.

Lennon needs to know that he's not guaranteed a starting place. He needs to know that there is competition for places and that we're not relying on him to be our main attacking threat. He needs to know that the fans and the club are behind him and will allow him to make mistakes because that's how young players develop. He's not a Dean Marney or a Rohan Ricketts. He (like Huddlestone imo) has alot of talent and we should be the ones to develop that talent. We paid £1m for him? He's not on exorbitant wages, so what's the rush? If we keep him for another couple of seasons and he doesn't develop as we'd like, we'd still maybe get circa £5M for him.

Those calling for him to be sold are nuts...imo.

 

[michaelden]

I say keep him. He's good and special

But he does need competition to wake him up. Or maybe a freer role behind the strikers

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You missed the important stat, double the mins on the pitch :wink:

He played one more game.

 

[joey55]

Kind of bizare then that Lennon actually turned in far better stats the season he played without Carrick then the previous season with Carrick. More passes, more accurate passes, more chnaces created and double the assists.

Seems he managed to see more of the ball and in better places than when Carrick was around. Possibly because Jol wasn't genius enough to utilise Carrick's "Genius" eh ?

Did you learn nothing from the other days argument? Stats have to be used properly or they are useless. For a atart Lennon was just 18 when he played with Carrick and was far less experienced than he is now. He'd never played top flight footbal before. As I said in the previous post it looked as if he'd go on to be a major force in the Prem which hasn't happened. He got taken to the WC at the end of the 2006 season and looked like Beckham's natural replacement, but now 2 years later he can't even get into the England squad. His game would improve dramitically if the ball was moved forward quicker from our midfield. But if you want to use the stats, then it's worth noting that in the last 2 prem seasons, Lennon has made 10 assists and for these Huddlestone has been playing for 8 of them. It's a fairly obvious point that a player for which pace is such a key part of their game is going to benefit from the ball moving forward at the earliest opportunity.

As for Jol not utilising Carrick's genius, he took an average side to the brink of CL football and then we sold Carrick for £18.6 million. I think most would agree he did a pretty decent job utilising Carrick.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yes he was a couple of months older when he began the 2006-7 season than when he finished the 2005-6 season. But he was also far more of a known quantity. He no longer had surprise on his side. From the beginning of 2006-7 we started to see him permenantly double teamed.

Your first line is comical Joey. You are quite happy to compare entirely different seasons played by Kanoute & Mido with differant teams against different teams with an inferior spurs side - to "prove" that the decision to ditch Mido for Kanoute was correct. Knowing that the variables in that comparison are millionfold. And to include Huddlestone in you 8/10 stat above - regardless of knowing whether Huddlestone played any part whatsoever in Lennon receiving the ball for those assists. Do you not listen to your own advice ? What has Huddlestone got to do with it anyway. I was merely pointing out that statistically he did better the following season. I also think he didn't have a terrible season this year either. I think half the problem is that when he burst on to the scene alot of peoples perception was too high.

In the season following Carricks departure Lennon made 7 assists compared to 3. Created 37 chances compared to 23, Made 541 passes to 450, Accurate with 413 to 337.

Yes he started a few months older but was also far more heavily marked. I think those stats conclusively prove that he didn't miss Carrick's "genius" as much as you stated.

If Jol really believed Carrick was a genius then why the fuck did he stand by and let him walze off to ManU ? Would Ramos or SAF allow a player he believed a genius to walk away so easily ?

 

[double0]

Can't believe the delusion of some of our supporters over the genius of Carrick... it's laughable

 

[joey55]

Yes he was a couple of months older when he began the 2006-7 season than when he finished the 2005-6 season. But he was also far more of a known quantity. He no longer had surprise on his side. From the beginning of 2006-7 we started to see him permenantly double teamed.

Your first line is comical Joey. You are quite happy to compare entirely different seasons played by Kanoute & Mido with differant teams against different teams with an inferior spurs side - to "prove" that the decision to ditch Mido for Kanoute was correct. Knowing that the variables in that comparison are millionfold. And to include Huddlestone in you 8/10 stat above - regardless of knowing whether Huddlestone played any part whatsoever in Lennon receiving the ball for those assists. Do you not listen to your own advice ? What has Huddlestone got to do with it anyway. I was merely pointing out that statistically he did better the following season. I also think he didn't have a terrible season this year either. I think half the problem is that when he burst on to the scene alot of peoples perception was too high.

In the season following Carricks departure Lennon made 7 assists compared to 3. Created 37 chances compared to 23, Made 541 passes to 450, Accurate with 413 to 337.

Yes he started a few months older but was also far more heavily marked. I think those stats conclusively prove that he didn't miss Carrick's "genius" as much as you stated.

If Jol really believed Carrick was a genius then why the fuck did he stand by and let him walze off to ManU ? Would Ramos or SAF allow a player he believed a genius to walk away so easily ?

You are just obsessed with arguing and it's so boring. The Mido debate is beyond tedious. The point is Jol found the players and system that worked. I havent' happily compared stats to prove anything. I've simply used stats to show you something that should be plainly obvious - the system Jol employed worked and Mido was a key factor in that. By playing the system he did Jol got more productivytin terms of goals and assists ou Mido than Kanoute did in hs Spurs career. Jol preffered Mido in his system and it was a success, why you can't be happy with that ai have no idea. It seems you are uncapable of taking pleasure for any success Spurs have if it comes in a way that in contrary to your own opinion.

The reason I used Huddlestone as an example is because he is a similar type of player to Carrick. The type of player I'm suggesting Lennon can benefit playing alongside. As we've disscussed many times before when we don't have this type of player we are too compact and predictable. You brought up Lennons' stats for assists etc, not me. I merely pointed out that his assist stats are far better with that type of player in the team.

As for Lennon being a couple of months older, it really isn't that simple is it? He wasn't just a few months younger when he first came into the side. And most importantly he'd had very little experience in the Prem (15 mins for Leeds i think). He was incredibly green and though exciting to watch had little impact during his first few months. However, once he settled down in the new year he made 3 assists and scored twice. Surely that it is perfectly normal for such a young and inexperienced player to need a few months to find his feet? Its a claer indication of progress. The first half of the season nothing and then 3 assists and 2 goals in the second half. One would surely hope he'd go onto to improve further in the coming seasons, but it hasn't happened.

Of those three assists Carrick was behind each of them. His FK set Lennon free to set up Mido aganist City, it was his ball out to Lennon that set up Mido againt Blackburn and it was his early forward ball that set him and Keane off to score against Newcastle. Also, it was Carrick who set up Lennon for his goal against Bolton. In a short space of time Carrick clearly had a very big impact on Lennon's game. It's hardly realistic to compare Lennon's first game at Spurs, with those when he came back from a WC.

If you compare the second half of his first season to any other period since then i strongly suspect, you'll see little if any difference. The statistical differences would have largelly come from his intial introduction into the first team. The only stat I can find that in anyway goes to illustrate this is a shots on goal stat, which shows he made just 2 before XMas and 13 after. Though he played 18 games after and just 10 before. But, i shouldn't need to do this as you have a brain I will alredy be aware that Lennon, like any youngster will naturally have grown in stature hugely as the season went on. The only reaon I need to highlight this is because of your petty need to pick pointless arguments and poor use of stats to try and support them.

And your last question is ridiculous. Everyone knows Jol didn't want to sell Carrick. Carrick wanted to leave.

But why do you have to be like you are? You constantly look to argue for no good reason. In essence this time you are arguing that Lennon's game and development hasn't suffered from not having a quality passing CM so we can play a more expansive game. For a player that rely's so much on his speed i find that difficult to believe that anyone woudln't agree with that. Yet once again you've tried to take issue with it. I don't think you actually gave a moments thought to what I was tying to say, but rather just looked for an angle from which to argue.

 

[Babylon22]

Double 0 is clueless. The forward pass is the most important pass in football.zokora and jenas are disgraceful at it. I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen jenas pass the ball sideways, run away from the ball and expect Dawson to pick a forward pass out. Jenas and zokora are fucking clowns. Jenas should be a fuckng winger.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You are just obsessed with arguing and it's so boring. The Mido debate is beyond tedious. The point is Jol found the players and system that worked. I havent' happily compared stats to prove anything. I've simply used stats to show you something that should be plainly obvious - the system Jol employed worked and Mido was a key factor in that. By playing the system he did Jol got more productivytin terms of goals and assists ou Mido than Kanoute did in hs Spurs career. Jol preffered Mido in his system and it was a success, why you can't be happy with that ai have no idea. It seems you are uncapable of taking pleasure for any success Spurs have if it comes in a way that in contrary to your own opinion.

So when Mido achieves better stats than Kanoute despite playing in a far better team, using a different system in a different year that's more valid than Lennon acheiving much better stats the season after Carrick went ?

The reason I used Huddlestone as an example is because he is a similar type of player to Carrick. The type of player I'm suggesting Lennon can benefit playing alongside. As we've disscussed many times before when we don't have this type of player we are too compact and predictable. You brought up Lennons' stats for assists etc, not me. I merely pointed out that his assist stats are far better with that type of player in the team.

But as I said you have no idea whatsoever if Huddlestone was invloved in any of those assists.

As for Lennon being a couple of months older, it really isn't that simple is it? He wasn't just a few months younger when he first came into the side. And most importantly he'd had very little experience in the Prem (15 mins for Leeds i think). He was incredibly green and though exciting to watch had little impact during his first few months. However, once he settled down in the new year he made 3 assists and scored twice. Surely that it is perfectly normal for such a young and inexperienced player to need a few months to find his feet? Its a claer indication of progress. The first half of the season nothing and then 3 assists and 2 goals in the second half. One would surely hope he'd go onto to improve further in the coming seasons, but it hasn't happened.

Of those three assists Carrick was behind each of them. His FK set Lennon free to set up Mido aganist City, it was his ball out to Lennon that set up Mido againt Blackburn and it was his early forward ball that set him and Keane off to score against Newcastle. Also, it was Carrick who set up Lennon for his goal against Bolton. In a short space of time Carrick clearly had a very big impact on Lennon's game. It's hardly realistic to compare Lennon's first game at Spurs, with those when he came back from a WC.

If you compare the second half of his first season to any other period since then i strongly suspect, you'll see little if any difference. The statistical differences would have largelly come from his intial introduction into the first team. The only stat I can find that in anyway goes to illustrate this is a shots on goal stat, which shows he made just 2 before XMas and 13 after. Though he played 18 games after and just 10 before. But, i shouldn't need to do this as you have a brain I will alredy be aware that Lennon, like any youngster will naturally have grown in stature hugely as the season went on. The only reaon I need to highlight this is because of your petty need to pick pointless arguments and poor use of stats to try and support them.

And your last question is ridiculous. Everyone knows Jol didn't want to sell Carrick. Carrick wanted to leave.

But why do you have to be like you are? You constantly look to argue for no good reason.

You keep posting longer and longer winded posts and you accuse me of arguing for the sake of it. Firstly, I don't always disagree with you. But the trouble is you can't seem to cope when your beliefs are questioned. And despite often producing statistical evidence to support my argument you still argue on and on. My stats are shit, yours all meaningfull. Defoe has a better gpm than bent - meaningless. Kanoute didn't play with Davids, Lee, jenas, Lennon - meaningless. Zokora best passer in prem after a few games - meaningless. Lennon's goals, assists, chances, passes, possession all better post Carrick - meaningless.

You must be the only person on this planet - other than Mido's mum - that actually thinks we would have done worse with Kanoute in our team than Mido.

Is it really me that argues for the sake of it Joey ?

In essence this time you are arguing that Lennon's game and development hasn't suffered from not having a quality passing CM so we can play a more expansive game. For a player that rely's so much on his speed i find that difficult to believe that anyone woudln't agree with that. Yet once again you've tried to take issue with it. I don't think you actually gave a moments thought to what I was tying to say, but rather just looked for an angle from which to argue.
Any player will of course benefit from having a good, quick thinking passer of the ball supplying them. I didn't say any different did I.

I was merely alluding to the facts that

a) Jol didn't play Carrick in a way that maximises his abilities - which is a point I've made before so I wasn't picking a new fight.

b)statistically Lennon performed better the following year without "Carrick's genius". And presumably without any genius ?? Suggesting he didn't exactly go backwards.

.

 

[joey55]

B-C for the last time, Mido's stats are valid within the system Jol played. Whether Kanoute could have done better or not isn't something we'll never know. All we know is that playing the system Jol did, Mido was able to score goals and more than Kanoute had scored for Spurs. it doesn't mean he was better than kanoute, simply that Jol found a system that was successful for us and Mido was able to score goals in that system. Why you are som obssessed with this I have no idea. It was a decision that worked out very well for us. Also you tend to ignore that Kanoute had annoyed the club by changing to Mali to play in the ANC and then he refused to go on the end of season tour.

Can you please show me where I said Defoe scoring more gpm than Bent was meaningless. Can you please also show me when i said that Kanoute not playing with Davids, Lee etc was meaningless.

As for the Zokora stats, they were meaningless. They also certainly never proved he was the best passer in the Prem. I pointed out that they were a good example of why people reject stats. They were a terrible example of how to use statisitics. Are you denying that?

As for Lennon's stats I've explained their worth is this very thread.

Also how can you keep making this absurd argument that Jol didn't play Carrick in a way that maximised his abilities. Carrick was sensational that season, to the point the most successful manager in British history paid £18.6 million for him.

I didn't say Lennon has gone backwards, but that his development has suffered from not having a Carrick type player in the team.

Anyway, other than finding those posts I've asked you to (you won't as they don't exist), I'd rather you didn't just try and pick another argument. As you've generously noted at the bottom of your post, you do by and large agree with the point i wa trying to make. And yes it really is you that argues for the sake of it. This thread being a great example of that, or the thread the other day abotu Zokora's stats or the ITK thread concerning Bent. Just look at your posts in this thread. You've acknowledged you agree with the general point I was making, yet you still have to try and start something. As I mentioned earlier, you aren't stupid, you know Lennon's early games are no way to judge him, yet you just ignore this, so you can find some stats to argue with. Do you really think it's fair or realistic to compare an 18 year olds first 10 games in the Prem, with his form over the next 2 seasons? Do you not think in that time he has improved the timing of his runs and the quality of his delivery?

If you want to have a serious discussion, then has Lennon progressed at the rate you'd have liked? If not, why do you think not? How do you see the best way of getting the best out of his game?

 

[double0]

Double 0 is clueless. The forward pass is the most important pass in football.zokora and jenas are disgraceful at it. I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen jenas pass the ball sideways, run away from the ball and expect Dawson to pick a forward pass out. Jenas and zokora are fucking clowns. Jenas should be a fuckng winger.

Jenas and Zokora are not always the midfield, Huddlestone has played centrally for a good proportion of game and Dawson still makes/made the 70 yard diagonal forward pass, even when Carrick was with us.

your point.:shrug:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Joey

What I honestly think is that being a winger is one of the hardest positions to appear successful. I don't think Lennon went backwards. I think - as I tried to prove with the figures - 2006-7 he improved all round. Even made far more tackles. Even this season if you compare him with Wright Phillips(a similar player but who cost 20+ mil compared to lennon's 1.2) he scored more, assisted more, created more, passed more and more accurately and was only two tackles behind despite SWP playing at RB a couple of times I think. lennon did clock up more minutes but only made two more appearances. Once the opposition know about a winger it can become very difficult. Look at how Ronaldo has converted himself from a winger to an inside right. Henry, Trezaguet have al been stuck out on the wing only to convert or reconvert back to playing as strikers. It's a tough job. It's why you see so few out and out wingers.

I think the more teams became aware of him the more they found ways to combat him. He was always doubled up, playing against probably the best standard of defender (Derby excluded obviously) generally that the prem has probably seen overall. His first season he very much had the element of surprise on his side. I can remeber Giggs going through very similar early phases - first season bursting on the scene, second season not so hot and people criticising his end product at times). Lennon has one problem that is never going to go
away, his size. It really helps if a player that dribbles has a bit of stature as it helps them to not get knocked off the ball so easily.

I think to get the best out of him he will have to learn - manager permitting - to drift and move off the ball much better, to find the spaces and pull markers away from their designated areas. Watch players like Ronaldo, Hleb, Navas, etc.

Of course his delivery must improve, as must his alround game, but you would hope this would.

I think he would also sometimes be best deployed as a sub and coming on and scaring the shit out of tired defenders. Starting malbranque for example. Good tactic away from home.