Andre Gray

[heelspurs]

Arsenal through and through as are his family I believe?

No thanks.

Huh, didn't know this when I was being all mature and diplomatic earlier. Just like Gray should be given a second chance on his views on homosexuality and an inclusive society I think I deserve one as well. Let me formulate my erudite thoughts:

F*ck you gooner scum. Supporting woolwich is a choice unlike homosexuality. You (Gray) can rot in hell (Burnley I presume).​

Yup, that about wraps it up.

 

[SlunkSoma]

Rather Gray than King.

King is so much better

 

[Wellspurs]

Agree agree. I'm proud of our squad, and would find it hard to get behind Gray for his past behaviour.

Bow your heads in shame if you've joined in with "Have you ever seen Campbell with a bird" etc etc

 

[Wellspurs]

Defoe was a gooner as a kid so redemption is possible?

 

[agrdavidsfan]

Defoe was a gooner as a kid so redemption is possible?

Some of andre's tweets were aimed at us with yid slurs i believe

 

[DJS]

He actually apologised for the tweets and said he was a different person now.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/aug/20/andre-gray-apologises-homophobic-tweet-gay

Obviously only he knows if he actually is or whether this was just lip-service due to the uproar but the tweets were 5 years ago and hopefully he has now made himself into a better person.

That is the problem with Twitter it allows people to put idiotic thoughts out there, hate Twitter. Lots of us in this world say stupid shit and unfortunately when you give uneducated footballers (or people who are in a bad place in life and perhaps hanging out with the wrong crowd) access to Twitter things like this happen...

But if he has truly changed and no longer a bigot I don't think it's fair to judge him personally.

In terms of his ability I'd be happy with him as he's a decent striker and I think people are being snobby again (about his ability not if they object due to his dodgy past believes).

I'd be happy with either him or King, maybe King a little more as can play wide as well.

Either Gray or King are proven Premier League ability and can score you goals.

I don't agree with any pundits who think Kane needs some world-class striker breathing down his neck as you can clearly see Kane motivates himself and we just need someone to cover and provide some goals if needed (obviously if Janssen can do this then that would be ideal but think would be safer to bring another in given where we are in our development at moment).

If Kane is fit though he should start whenever possible as he wants to be breaking league records and we want to be giving him chance to get 30 goals in league, not rotating him.

 

[MattPhilpott]

Not condoning at all what he says at all, I'm heavily involved in quite a lot of LGBT stuff. The tweets however were from 5 years ago I believe (making him 19/20), he has apologised prefusly and says he is disgusted at himself...so he clearly sees the error of his ways. He hasn't had any repeated incidents since and it was only after someone pulled it up that he got bollocked.

Could think of a lot worse that we could do...10-20 mill in this market is peanuts, can score goals and has pace to burn! If we can get our preferred target that would be great! But I think he would be a decent backup option!

 

[Sweech]

We are living in an age where you can't say anything I'm not defending him about those tweets of course he was silly making it public however they were made 5 plus years ago he was a youngster and probably loved girls and just didn't have the compassion to understand, he also apologised. What got me was that it was dragged up many years later when he become more recognised....why not before.


would he be a good option I think yes he would.

Not defending his tweets or thought process to send them but the question is, exactly what type of world are we living in where people can't make mistakes, contritely acknowledge them, and ultimately be forgiven their transgressions and be given a second chance? Those tweets are very disturbing indeed. I cannot wrap my head around a ~20 year old thinking those thoughts let alone putting them on out for public consumption. But at his age I was wrapping up my last year of university which I assume is significantly different from Gray's upbringing. If fortune blew a different way he could be open, enlightened and accepting and any one of us could have sent those tweets. This is an idea lost on many of you, we are creatures of our environment. His, apparently, was less than ideal. However, I also would not be happy with him at Spurs but that is mostly due to a distinct impression of 'averageness' not for passed misdeeds (assuming he truly has reformed).

Those on the moral high horse need to widen your respective lenses. The really funny thing is that it is likely that most of your football heroes are raging homophobes, racists & misogynistic fuckbags. If you are an adult and think differently then I fear for you around sharp objects. This is football we are talking about. The general demographic that plays and follows it is not educated, enlightened and forward thinking. If this was not the case then fans would not need to be separated before, during and after said games.

Not condoning at all what he says at all, I'm heavily involved in quite a lot of LGBT stuff. The tweets however were from 5 years ago I believe (making him 19/20), he has apologised prefusly and says he is disgusted at himself...so he clearly sees the error of his ways. He hasn't had any repeated incidents since and it was only after someone pulled it up that he got bollocked.

Could think of a lot worse that we could do...10-20 mill in this market is peanuts, can score goals and has pace to burn! If we can get our preferred target that would be great! But I think he would be a decent backup option!

Remove "Gay" and put "Jew".

If it were written that way would you still put it aside as young angst? Would you still advocate signing him?

Have a real think here. He talked about burning and killing people. Not about disagreeing with a lifestyle.

 

[heelspurs]

Remove "Gay" and put "Jew".

If it were written that way would you still put it aside as young angst? Would you still advocate signing him?

Have a real think here. He talked about burning and killing people. Not about disagreeing with a lifestyle.

This is easy...and consistent with my argument, yes. The construction of your point presumes that I don't understand/fully comprehend the magnitude of the bigotry/ignorance. Moreover, it also presumes I have not personally experienced similar bigotry/hate and hence my 'unreasonable' perspective. Well I have. And I would say the same about those people that directed it toward me and afford them 2nd chances. But more disturbing is the need to 'replace' one group with another. It implies that the inherent value of the ignorance/hate is a function of which group it is directed at. And that I, or anyone else, can only see the true horror of it when it is a group 'I care about'. Well, I care about it when it is directed at any group, in equal measure.

People's age, environment and upbringing must be taken into account. Think about the Millwall video of that ~4 year old being taught 'hate'. When he hits 20, unless he has some experiences outside of his immediate family, he will be a bigoted hate-monger. He will have very little choice. How much of that will be his responsibility? There are mitigating circumstances. Do you not think that you would have turned out the same way if you grew up in the Millwall kid's house? If you think you would be the open minded, enlightened person you are now then that is some huge level of conceit. And if you would have grown up under Gray's circumstances you might have tweeted similar. To take it to the totally absurd level just think of all the gay-hate spewing republicans and preachers in the US. How often do they pop up with gay associations in their history? They have been taught to hate it and they even hate themselves.

As vile as the words are they are not actions. Words do have weight but they are not actions and should not be judged as such. Do you not afford people 2nd chances? As a LGBTQ ally you should already know that converts are quite often the best allies in the fight. I understand and share the blood-curdling anger with this stupidity but I also see the value in forgiveness when it is honestly sought. But that doesn't mean I won't watch him like a hawk for signs that his contrition wasn't genuine.

 

[Sweech]

Not condoning at all what he says at all, I'm heavily involved in quite a lot of LGBT stuff. The tweets however were from 5 years ago I believe (making him 19/20), he has apologised prefusly and says he is disgusted at himself...so he clearly sees the error of his ways. He hasn't had any repeated incidents since and it was only after someone pulled it up that he got bollocked.

Could think of a lot worse that we could do...10-20 mill in this market is peanuts, can score goals and has pace to burn! If we can get our preferred target that would be great! But I think he would be a decent backup option!

This is easy...and consistent with my argument, yes. The construction of your point presumes that I don't understand/fully comprehend the magnitude of the bigotry/ignorance. Moreover, it also presumes I have not personally experienced similar bigotry/hate and hence my 'unreasonable' perspective. Well I have. And I would say the same about those people that directed it toward me and afford them 2nd chances. But more disturbing is the need to 'replace' one group with another. It implies that the inherent value of the ignorance/hate is a function of which group it is directed at. And that I, or anyone else, can only see the true horror of it when it is a group 'I care about'. Well, I care about it when it is directed at any group, in equal measure.

People's age, environment and upbringing must be taken into account. Think about the Millwall video of that ~4 year old being taught 'hate'. When he hits 20, unless he has some experiences outside of his immediate family, he will be a bigoted hate-monger. He will have very little choice. How much of that will be his responsibility? There are mitigating circumstances. Do you not think that you would have turned out the same way if you grew up in the Millwall kid's house? If you think you would be the open minded, enlightened person you are now then that is some huge level of conceit. And if you would have grown up under Gray's circumstances you might have tweeted similar. To take it to the totally absurd level just think of all the gay-hate spewing republicans and preachers in the US. How often do they pop up with gay associations in their history? They have been taught to hate it and they even hate themselves.

As vile as the words are they are not actions. Words do have weight but they are not actions and should not be judged as such. Do you not afford people 2nd chances? As a LGBTQ ally you should already know that converts are quite often the best allies in the fight. I understand and share the blood-curdling anger with this stupidity but I also see the value in forgiveness when it is honestly sought. But that doesn't mean I won't watch him like a hawk for signs that his contrition wasn't genuine.

I would just simply rather not sign him and not have to worry about it whatsoever.

I also don't believe that switching labels is a wrong thing to do. People are biased. I'm biased - you're biased. It's just the way people are wired, we're tribal and that's the way we're supposed to be. Not everyone can act perfectly altruistic towards every group under the sun. All we can do is attempt to empathize with other groups based on our own situations and experiences we have from the groups we identify with. Switching labels is an attempt to create that empathy. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[heelspurs]

I would just simply rather not sign him and not have to worry about it whatsoever.

I also don't believe that switching labels is a wrong thing to do. People are biased. I'm biased - you're biased. It's just the way people are wired, we're tribal and that's the way we're supposed to be. Not everyone can act perfectly altruistic towards every group under the sun. All we can do is attempt to empathize with other groups based on our own situations and experiences we have from the groups we identify with. Switching labels is an attempt to create that empathy. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Well stated and we are in accord on your first statement. I totally hear and respect your, as well as others, opinion on this matter. And I would rather not have to worry about it either. My point to my first post was that if Poch thought his ability justified a transfer (which I don't) then I would be willing to give him the 2nd chance that his contrition justifies. My preference would be he enjoyed the full responsibilities and privileges of that 2nd chance at another team. I don't have control over that however.

Yes, everyone has bias but they can be effectively overcome by the same things that allow us to overcome petty tribalism: education and exposure. But for some to grasp that level of empathy needed they do have to personalize it as they lack the education and exposure necessary. It is a very effective and perfectly fair rhetorical mechanism. I use it myself when it is clear that someone is not seeing that which is patently obvious. I guess I was just taken aback by the implication that this applied to me.

 

[Sweech]

Well stated and we are in accord on your first statement. I totally hear and respect your, as well as others, opinion on this matter. And I would rather not have to worry about it either. My point to my first post was that if Poch thought his ability justified a transfer (which I don't) then I would be willing to give him the 2nd chance that his contrition justifies. My preference would be he enjoyed the full responsibilities and privileges of that 2nd chance at another team. I don't have control over that however.

Yes, everyone has bias but they can be effectively overcome by the same things that allow us to overcome petty tribalism: education and exposure. But for some to grasp that level of empathy needed they do have to personalize it as they lack the education and exposure necessary. It is a very effective and perfectly fair rhetorical mechanism. I use it myself when it is clear that someone is not seeing that which is patently obvious. I guess I was just taken aback by the implication that this applied to me.

This isn't really the place for this conversation but I think tribalism is pretty heavily ingrained.

There's a reason we're here talking about and supporting Tottenham and not "football". It in itself being its own tribe.

 

[Hotspur1978]

Watford are close to agreeing a deal - thought to be worth about £18.5m - to sign Burnley striker Andre Gray.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/40872618

 

[widmerpool]

Watford are close to agreeing a deal - thought to be worth about £18.5m - to sign Burnley striker Andre Gray.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/40872618

So ex-chairman and honorary life president Rick Spangle didn't mind the tweets, then. He'll be in the Heelspurs "to forgive is divine" camp.

 

[spursfan77]

Watford are close to agreeing a deal - thought to be worth about £18.5m - to sign Burnley striker Andre Gray.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/40872618

It's not all bad news this morning then. At least we aren't signing him.

 

[yido_number1]

Watford are close to agreeing a deal - thought to be worth about £18.5m - to sign Burnley striker Andre Gray.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/40872618

SSN have the deal at £11.5m

 

[WalkerboyUK]

Remove "Gay" and put "Jew".

If it were written that way would you still put it aside as young angst? Would you still advocate signing him?

Have a real think here. He talked about burning and killing people. Not about disagreeing with a lifestyle.

Switch Gay or Jew to Christian and I'd wager you wouldn't even bat an eyelid...

 

[heelspurs]

So ex-chairman and honorary life president Rick Spangle didn't mind the tweets, then. He'll be in the Heelspurs "to forgive is divine" camp.

I don't get the early reference (even after a google). Thus, I am left to wonder if the subsequent passive-aggression is of an inspired nature or the hackneyed, low-hanging fruit variety. I truly do hope it is of the former.

 

[widmerpool]

I don't get the early reference (even after a google). Thus, I am left to wonder if the subsequent passive-aggression is of an inspired nature or the hackneyed, low-hanging fruit variety. I truly do hope it is of the former.

No aggression intended, passive or otherwise. It was Alexander Pope who said that to forgive was divine, and generally it's quoted with approbation. As it was here. I don't disagree with your stance on Gray.

Rick Spangle is the millionaire pop star chairman of Fulchester Football Club, where Billy the Fish held down the no 1 shirt for many years, in the pages of Viz. Fulchester is based on Roy of the Rovers' Melchester, but Rick Spangle is popularly believed to have been inspired by Elton John, who once owned a majority of shares in Watford, and remains honorary life president of the club. Elton John is a musical entertainer of some fame - he had a horrible, treacly song, delivered in a weird, Grossman-esque*, transatlantic whine, about a candle in the wind - and is also well known for being gay. The point is that Gray's homophobia presumably didn't trouble John.

Next time I make a light-hearted pop culture reference I will footnote it.

*Lloyd Grossman was a presenter on Masterchef, before the buttery biscuit base mockney^ took over.

^Look, I could explain that, but it takes us into potentially infinite regress.

 

[heelspurs]

No aggression intended, passive or otherwise. It was Alexander Pope who said that to forgive was divine, and generally it's quoted with approbation. As it was here. I don't disagree with your stance on Gray.

Rick Spangle is the millionaire pop star chairman of Fulchester Football Club, where Billy the Fish held down the no 1 shirt for many years, in the pages of Viz. Fulchester is based on Roy of the Rovers' Melchester, but Rick Spangle is popularly believed to have been inspired by Elton John, who once owned a majority of shares in Watford, and remains honorary life president of the club. Elton John is a musical entertainer of some fame - he had a horrible, treacly song, delivered in a weird, Grossman*-esque, transatlantic whine, about a candle in the wind - and is also well known for being gay.

Next time I make a light-hearted pop culture reference I will footnote it.

*Lloyd Grossman was a presenter on Masterchef, before the buttery biscuit base mockney^ took over.

^Look, I could explain that, but it takes us into potentially infinite regress.

This part is missing from wiki. The whole bit hinged on this. Now I understand. And I love (early) Elton John and it'll be a long, long time before I'm ashamed of it. But in the future when making pop culture references there is no need to foot note as explaining a joke ruins it. Just utilize more universally recognized representations of English culture, like Benny Hill. Ok, that's a piss take but I know it grates and that's the joke.