Anti Spurs bias on BBC

[nailsy]

You've clarified my point, Walker's push was obvious but they replayed it in close up, the hand ball wasn't yet we got one comment from Shearer and no replay!!! Sane did move his arm to the ball to control it, watch it again!

Have you got a video that shows it was a clear handball? Can you post the link so I can watch it?

I've seen quite a few replays from various angles and in slow motion. From one angle the ball looks like it hits his shoulder and bounces clear, from another it looks like it might have hit his hand, but Hugo is blocking the view. Not that it really matters as the ref doesn't have slow motion and multiple replays. The rules say it has to be a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm and that you have to consider the he distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) and the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand). He was virtually level with Lloris when the ball came towards him so didn't have time to deliberately handle it.

 

[thekneaf]

Have you got a video that shows it was a clear handball? Can you post the link so I can watch it?

I've seen quite a few replays from various angles and in slow motion. From one angle the ball looks like it hits his shoulder and bounces clear, from another it looks like it might have hit his hand, but Hugo is blocking the view. Not that it really matters as the ref doesn't have slow motion and multiple replays. The rules say it has to be a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm and that you have to consider the he distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) and the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand). He was virtually level with Lloris when the ball came towards him so didn't have time to deliberately handle it.

Firstly, the handball is never getting given. No ref is spotting that, so this is only a reply on the technicality of the law, rather than the actual incident.

While I agree it needs to be deliberate to merit a caution, it the ball accidental strikes you hand the ref can still pull up play and award a free kick. Think a similar thing happened in a game a few years ago with Ashley Cole, he was on the wing, the ball popped up and hit his arm but fell to his feet, he crossed it, they scored.

This ball to hand thing happens often all over the park in every level of football. Usually it's just a toot on the whistle and free kick to the other side.

 

[Khilari]

Have you got a video that shows it was a clear handball? Can you post the link so I can watch it?

I've seen quite a few replays from various angles and in slow motion. From one angle the ball looks like it hits his shoulder and bounces clear, from another it looks like it might have hit his hand, but Hugo is blocking the view. Not that it really matters as the ref doesn't have slow motion and multiple replays. The rules say it has to be a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm and that you have to consider the he distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) and the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand). He was virtually level with Lloris when the ball came towards him so didn't have time to deliberately handle it.

It definitely hit his hand, but you're right that it was effectively a rapid flick off Lloris's head onto his hand. It was almost too fast for it to be a clearly intentional but the way his hand moves, it could equally have been an instinctive touch. I agree, in retrospect that actually it probably wasn't a penalty for the reasons you say above, however the ball and his hand made contact, which I guess is why there's debate.

I recorded a movie of the clip and here's a screenshot of it

 

[nightgoat]

Have you got a video that shows it was a clear handball? Can you post the link so I can watch it?

I've seen quite a few replays from various angles and in slow motion. From one angle the ball looks like it hits his shoulder and bounces clear, from another it looks like it might have hit his hand, but Hugo is blocking the view. Not that it really matters as the ref doesn't have slow motion and multiple replays. The rules say it has to be a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm and that you have to consider the he distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) and the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand). He was virtually level with Lloris when the ball came towards him so didn't have time to deliberately handle it.

This angle on the highlights video on the OS shows it is clearly his hand. Obviously you get a better idea of it when it's playing, rather than a single frame...

Refs are also advised to take into consideration whether or not an advantage was gained by the handball. Sané clearly did gain an advantage as if his arm isn't outstretched, it goes past him and he doesn't get the chance. Probably not deliberate as his left arm being in front of him is consistent with how he's pumping his arms running on to the through ball, but ultimately that doesn't matter because without controlling the ball with his hand, he doesn't score.

Another example of an unintentional handball where a player gained an advantage was Wijnaldum's assist for Firmino v Swansea as he used his arm to control the ball which allowed him to get the cross in. I seem to recall the commentators and pundits were in agreement that it should have been disallowed for handball.

 

[dagraham]

West Ham offered to postpone, and then to replay, that match. The Premier League voted against this (or against us).

I remember them offering to postpone, but not to replay the match. Anyway, I'm not convinced the PL voting against it was due to any bias against Spurs. They just didn't want to set a precedent for the future. A bit like the rule for the CL winners entering the following years competition as an additional team, rather than taking the 4th placed teams spot as happened to us. The rule was then changed.

Both incidents represent typical Spurs bad luck on our part, but in truth we could and should have prevented them ever being a factor by securing 4th and 3rd places respectively. We were in the driving seat to achieve it both times.

 

[tiger666]

The Sane goal has nothing to do with bias. There was no way the ref could have spotted it unless he can see through Sane's body. He was behind him near the half way line as possession had just been lost by Son and turned over quickly. The lino's view was probably blocked by Lloris's body as he dived in front of him.

 

[nailsy]

This angle on the highlights video on the OS shows it is clearly his hand. Obviously you get a better idea of it when it's playing, rather than a single frame...

View attachment 28159

Refs are also advised to take into consideration whether or not an advantage was gained by the handball. Sané clearly did gain an advantage as if his arm isn't outstretched, it goes past him and he doesn't get the chance. Probably not deliberate as his left arm being in front of him is consistent with how he's pumping his arms running on to the through ball, but ultimately that doesn't matter because without controlling the ball with his hand, he doesn't score.

Another example of an unintentional handball where a player gained an advantage was Wijnaldum's assist for Firmino v Swansea as he used his arm to control the ball which allowed him to get the cross in. I seem to recall the commentators and pundits were in agreement that it should have been disallowed for handball.

He has to deliberately handle the ball for it to be a foul. This is taken from the FIFA website.:

There are circumstances when a caution for unsporting behaviour is required when a player deliberately handles the ball, e.g. when a player: • deliberately and blatantly handles the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession • attempts to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball

The speed at which it happened makes it almost impossible for it to be deliberate.

The Sane goal has nothing to do with bias. There was no way the ref could have spotted it unless he can see through Sane's body. He was behind him near the half way line as possession had just been lost by Son and turned over quickly. The lino's view was probably blocked by Lloris's body as he dived in front of him.

I totally agree, but there seems to be two different debates going on here. Firstly was it handball, and secondly were the BBC biased for not replaying it. I think if you agree that it wasn't handball then it's totally understandable that they don't show it again, but if you think it was handball then you see the need to replay it and highlight it. Even then it just has to go down as something that the officials couldn't possibly see.

 

[nightgoat]

He has to deliberately handle the ball for it to be a foul. This is taken from the FIFA website.:

There are circumstances when a caution for unsporting behaviour is required when a player deliberately handles the ball, e.g. when a player: • deliberately and blatantly handles the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession • attempts to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball

The speed at which it happened makes it almost impossible for it to be deliberate.

It doesn't, though. That rule is badly written as 99.9% of handballs penalised cannot be proven to be deliberate, which is why referees are advised to base their decision on factors such as did the hand/arm move towards the ball, was the arm in an unnatural position, and did the player gain an advantage from the handball. In this instance, his arm does move towards the ball, but that is most likely because of how he was running. For that same reason you can't really say it was an unnatural position, but there is no question that he gained an advantage from controlling the ball with his hand. Of course it was very difficult for the officials to spot, but were video technology available then the goal would have been disallowed.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

I remember them offering to postpone, but not to replay the match. Anyway, I'm not convinced the PL voting against it was due to any bias against Spurs. .

The chairman of the PL took calls whilst chatting to David Dein on the pitch at Highbury and the final decision was announced shortly afterwards, from pitchside at Highbury

But nothing will ever be proved and it does seem unlikely, it was probably just unfortunate that that's where he was..... and it was all so long ago now.