Are spurs fans too use to average?

[yanno]

Cheers for that Yanno. I won't dredge it all up again but it certainly makes for some interesting reading. Ta.

MattWilliams - I agree. That sleeping dog can stay snoozing a little longer. But it is an interesting perspective on the reality of the whole Chairman-DoF-Coach setup.

 

[yanno]

This is what Levy/Commoli/Ramos have to sell to Berbatov during talks this summer. All I wish for is Berbatov to give us one more season, see where we stand, and if we do not qualify for the ECL, and he wants to go, let him go.

But hopefully, our board will show ambition, and implement the two year mandatory extension that I have read what was included in Berbatov's contract and pay him on parity with the other elite stars in the EPL.

Absolutely. And I'm sure our board will show ambition - after all, they're paying Ramos a ridiculous salary on a multi-year contract precisely to deter other clubs from poaching him.

Berbati and I had a discussion some time back about Berba's contract, where he was suggesting that the crucial factor was not salary. Berba knows we will pay him elite wages if he signs a long-term contract. Berbati suggested that Berba wants to play CL football, and if this isn't going to happen then he will only sign a new contract if it has a realistic release clause.

Imo this would be the fairest option. Spurs should pay Berba elite wages on a new long-term contract, with a hefty but not prohibitive release clause if we don't get CL football at the end of next season. This would be fair to Berba and fair to Spurs. And give Ramos a full season to work his magic on a team including Berba. The upside would be that if we achieved CL football, Berba would be here on a long-term contract.

 

[SpurSince57]

It is interesting that the squad that was supposed to be good enough to challenge for a Top Four place at the start of the season required £20m to be spent on it in January—and that would have been £30m+ if Tiago hadn't messed us about. There was even a rumour that we'd put in a bid for Amelia but had run out of time to complete the deal. For one reason or another, the players on whom we spent £40m in the summer have had a negligible impact on the squad.

What's been apparent for the past two seasons is that if we can field our best eleven we can take on just about anyone with a good chance of success. It's surely no coincidence that we finished so well last season once Jol had Berbatov, Jenas, Keane and King avaiable to him at the same time. By the same token, it doesn't take too much to seriously weaken us—the shambles against Birmingham was ample evidence of that.

 

[AngerManagement]

Poor man...

:grin: Thanks, could you help me spell pedantic now too?

 

[yanno]

It is interesting that the squad that was supposed to be good enough to challenge for a Top Four place at the start of the season required £20m to be spent on it in January—and that would have been £30m+ if Tiago hadn't messed us about. There was even a rumour that we'd put in a bid for Amelia but had run out of time to complete the deal. For one reason or another, the players on whom we spent £40m in the summer have had a negligible impact on the squad.

I was thinking about the DoF-coach-board situation again in the context of Riquelme failing at Barca.

The supporters of the DoF structure maintain that it ensures continuity of players and minimal disruption to the squad when a coach leaves or is sacked. However imo it does no such thing. Precisely because a new coach is going to have his own ideas on tactics and formations. And because many of the players the coach inherits may not be suitable for the type of football he wants to play.

In the context of Riquelme, Barca had been trying to sign him from Boca for some time. By the time their DoF did the deal, Louis van Gaal was coach and decided that Riquelme didn't fit the formation he wanted to play. So, he stuck Riquelme on the left wing and he failed at Barca.

Who was right here: the DoF or the coach? From the club's point of view, the DoF signed a world class player. From the coach's point of view, the DoF signed a player who didn't fit his formation.

With Spurs, following comments by Marcos Alvarez and Guillem Balague, many of us suspect Ramos wants his team to be able to attack down the flanks with attacking wingers and FBs, whilst the CM will be very compact. This will mean further signings in the summer, not necessarily because the players aren't "good enough", but because they don't fit "Ramos football".

My conclusion? Ultimately the coach has to have final say on all first team signings. To allow the DoF or Tottenham's "four-man committee" to have that power is counter-productive.

 

[davros]

Sometimes I do not understand us Spurs fans. We've been average for the last 15 years apart from the year we almost got 4th, yet we shower praises on average players for doing their jobs, such as steed, Tainio, Brown and Freund. While for players with class, like Carrick, it took almost a year after his debut to get any recognition. The same goes for Kanoute. We seem to like rubbish players who try their hardest.

We aren't the only fans to appreciate a player of 'average' ability who puts in 90 minutes of effort each week. There really is nothing wrong with that. Let's think consider the players who get most praise at the moment, though...
Obviously Berbatov, he's a rare talent.
Woody, the man who scored our cup winner and has been a rock at the back since his arrival.
King, our best player? When he's fit he really is amazing.
Keane, over 100 goals for us, and over 20 in a season for the second time in row.
Steed, who has had a very good season, and has been pretty much one of our most consistent performers in what has been a dissapointing season in terms of league position. A very high work rate, puts in tackles, scores the odd goal, and isn't he being played out of position?
So we do appreciate class as well as just effort from 'average' players.


By the way, it's not really just the last 15 years that we've been 'average'. SS57 has, if I fully understand his name, seen us win the league once, and relegated once. Weve finished in the top 3 maybe 10 times in that time, and have probably averaged 8th-9th place. A cup win every 8-9 years is probably about average for us too. I am sure that someone will go and prove all these figures wrong, but I bet I'm not far off.

Do we really have a definition for an average team, though? We have been ever present in the PL, despite a couple of very shaky seasons. There are only maybe 6 other sides that can claim that. We do have a tradition of having great flair players and playing exciting football. We score a lot of goals with our current side, although we have conceded a few. We constantly seem to be linked to the worlds greatest players, which can be annoying but I am sure we would miss it if it stopped. We were the first team to win 'the double'. We have a good tradition in the FA cup.

We do not have a divine right to be expecting great things based on our overall history, but I really love that we do expect to break into the top 4 each season. I also love the 'average' players who go out every week and give 100% to try and make it happen for us. They didn't sign temselves, and they didn't pick themselves for the team that week. They play because they are considered, by an expert, to be the best we have. When we start a tradition of finishing in the top 6 consistently, then we can start to expect more top players to come to us. Until then I love Steed and will happily praise him and anyone else who gives 100% in our shirt.

 

[justfookinhitit]

"Wealth" and "Revenue" are two completely different things. Our REVENUE is the 11th highest in the world. To gauge wealth you need to take into account assets, debt etc etc. Take Arse, who have much higher revenue than we do, but they also have a huge pile of debt that needs to be serviced.

Would you rather have £10m in the bank and not earn a salary, or earn a £100k salary, have a chunky mortgage and have zippo in the bank? I know which I'd go for.

 

[DC_Boy]

some good points Davros

for me an 'average team' is someone like Stike City Crewe Alexandra Bristol City QPR Swansea

however compare those teams to the hundreds of decent semi-pro amateur clubs in this country and they'll be above average

As far as I'm concerned Spurs are very much in the higher echelons of english football and way above average

Historically we stand 5th in the all time trophy table out of something like 100+ pro clubs during that period plus various amateur clubs who feature in it (hilariously one such amateur club, the Wnderers who won all their trophies (5) in Queen Victoria's time sill stand higher in the list than West Ham (4))

our recent lge cup win now makes us the 5th most successful team in English football over the pat 10 years, and another trophy next year will almost certainly confirm our position as such in the 'zeroes' decade

with regard to 57s point about many considering our squad at start of season being good enough to challenge for top 4, it's true a lot of people did, but many of us including me said repeatedly at the start of the season this wasn't the case, and the team that trotted out at Sunderland didn't look remotely good enough and that was before they started playing I predicted 7th as my early season prediction - a lot thought that too pessimistic turns out it was optimistic

we needed strenghtening in Jan and we need at least a new keeper and almost certainly a new CB before I can see us as realistic top 4 challengers - but i'll be waiting for the summer friendlies etc and close of transfer window before making firm predictions

 

[SpurSince57]

By the way, it's not really just the last 15 years that we've been 'average'. SS57 has, if I fully understand his name, seen us win the league once, and relegated once. Weve finished in the top 3 maybe 10 times in that time, and have probably averaged 8th-9th place. A cup win every 8-9 years is probably about average for us too. I am sure that someone will go and prove all these figures wrong, but I bet I'm not far off.

Indeedy-doody. You are close to spot on. In the just over fifty years that I've been following Spurs we've been Champions once, runners-up once, third eight times, fourth three times. Plus six FA Cups, four League Cups, one ECWC and two UEFA Cups. And the Anglo-Italian Trophy, and four runners-up spots!

So, whilst there have been periods, even in the sixties, when we have been decidedly average, that's a top four spot every five years and a cup of some description about the same. A lot of teams would like some of that. Also, since we were promoted in 1950 we've spent just one season out of the top flight. Only the Scum have done better, and only United as well (Everton had three years in the Second Division in the early fifties).

 

[DC_Boy]

"Wealth" and "Revenue" are two completely different things. .

good point jfk (couldn't resist the presedential abbreviation and one I've made many a time (hence it's such a good point :wink:

however as a long term indicator revenue is a good gauge of wealth for most clubs - eg we know without their chairman CFC would be nowhere as rich as they are if they had to rely on revenue, which one day they may have to

I still wish we had a 'sugar daddy' to boost our 'wealth' beyond our revenue - but I know some/most fans disagree

 

[Berbati]

Absolutely. And I'm sure our board will show ambition - after all, they're paying Ramos a ridiculous salary on a multi-year contract precisely to deter other clubs from poaching him.

Berbati and I had a discussion some time back about Berba's contract, where he was suggesting that the crucial factor was not salary. Berba knows we will pay him elite wages if he signs a long-term contract. Berbati suggested that Berba wants to play CL football, and if this isn't going to happen then he will only sign a new contract if it has a realistic release clause.

Imo this would be the fairest option. Spurs should pay Berba elite wages on a new long-term contract, with a hefty but not prohibitive release clause if we don't get CL football at the end of next season. This would be fair to Berba and fair to Spurs. And give Ramos a full season to work his magic on a team including Berba. The upside would be that if we achieved CL football, Berba would be here on a long-term contract.

Mate, my advice would be to not be optimistic about Berbatov staying for another season. I explain my reasons in the front page thread about Berba. Be mentally prepared that he probably will leave. If he stays, then great. If he leaves, then it will be easier to accept it.

Ramos says Berbatov is "ambitious". To interpret "ambitious" as willing to play in the CL would be an understatement. Berbatov wants to win the bloody thing. Now suppose Spurs finish 4th next season, then he will be told: please, stay for another season to help us in the CL. And after that season he will be 29. If he gets a bad injury in that season, his dream will be over. The same holds if he gets a bad injury next season: Spurs will lose a great player without getting money for signing a genuine replacement and Berbatov will lose the prospect to make the career he dreams of. He can be badly injured after he moves to a new club but he will be already there and he will have the chance after his recovering to prove himself.

The perfect thing would be Berbatov to win the CL with Spurs as this would be 10 times the achievment to win it with Real or Barca or Man U. But the chance this to happen is too small to be seriously taken into account.

Judging by Ramos words, I think he himself is already prepared for Berbatov's departure.

 

[spurs4europe]

Then why do some many on this forum have a go at the likes of Zokora? Surely he plays with his heart on his sleeves and tries his hardest...............:shrug:

i didn't think about that. it is true that he does, but that could possibly be because he arrived with a decent reputation and was called 'the maestro'. he was meant to replace the fans' michael carrick and the fact that he never lived up to that reputation did make him a target.
he is also prone to ridiculous diving, which as we all know is not tolerated in the EPL.

however, i think he is starting to win some fans back with his recent performances, so what you say may not be completely true, but first impressions are always the hardest to get rid of, and so it make a while longer before the fans start to appreciate DZ.

 

[DOX]

:grin: Thanks, could you help me spell pedantic now too?

Always at your service, sire.