Arsenal

[Led's Zeppelin]

Players have been leaving for a number of years, Nasri, Clichy, Sagna, RVP, Fabregas, Etc, Yeah they want for more money elsewhere but I am sure ambition played its part to. Even Fergie in his Bio said he thought AW had lost his hunger.

I didn't link it in here but on Arse-Mania a couple of the posters were debating the 'quality' of the talent at Arsenal and they were more so of the belief that they have been overestimating the players quality and that in the second 11 they lack even more so. Its a full on inquisition among the fans top to bottom about the club.

Yes, that makes sense to me.

 

[worcestersauce]

None of that, if correct, explains why the players have stopped playing for him, if indeed they have.

The other conundrum for them (poor things) is, if they are really about to splurge £200m in the transfer market this summer, would you want a brand new manager to be in control of that sort of budget straight off, or would you trust it to the man who has brought you unprecedented success?

Yes, they are in a mess of their own making, but they do like to wallow in self-aggrandising and nauseating pity don't they?

Alternatively if you are going to spend £200m on new players why give that money to Wenger who will be gone in a year or two, wouldn't it be better to get the new man in first, he is the future of the club after all so let him have his own players.

 

[KILLA_SIN]

Something else I was thinking about was the fabled Arsenal youth setup, 10 years ago it was all about the 'kids' coming through who in the first team has come up through the youth system and who is coming up, not really much that I can tell, maybe some of the youth guys no more.

Compared to us, Kane, Winks, have been developed, and we have a few others on the fringes.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

Alternatively if you are going to spend £200m on new players why give that money to Wenger who will be gone in a year or two, wouldn't it be better to get the new man in first, he is the future of the club after all so let him have his own players.

Yes, quite possibly.

But neither option is anywhere close to being a good idea. Not for a club that is ostensibly well run and financially prudent.

 

[remember91]

I think there there is a lot that we as Spurs fans can learn from this.

As far as I can see it, it is the fans who have undermined and destabilized the club with unrealistic expectations.

Wenger has done a good job at that club, he's finished ahead of us every season to date, got reliable champions league football and won a decent number of trophies.

Their fans, most of whom are glory supporters who don't remember the likes of Bruce Rioch, expect them to be signing megastars and winning premierships and get grumpy when they don't.

Reality check. Arsenal are a 3rd tier club in European football. They don't, and never will, have the money or prestige to buy championships like Chelsea and the Manchester clubs let alone the Reals, Barcas and Bayerns. They are like an ugly guy, who got lucky and had a half fit girlfriend at school and is now upset that models don't want to date him.

Ourselves as a club, are on the up, as we are doing what Arsenal used to do. We know we can't afford or attract Pogba's and Griezmanns, so we go for younger players or players through our youth system and try and coach and develop them.

I hope we can all remember the bad times (Anyone remember Jason Cundy), so if we do get some success, we don't turn into the stupid spoilt brats that seem to make up their support and start chanting 'Poch out' at the first sign of a bad season or because he "missed out" on a player who went to Real Madrid or the like.

 

[brendanb50]

None of that, if correct, explains why the players have stopped playing for him, if indeed they have.

The other conundrum for them (poor things) is, if they are really about to splurge £200m in the transfer market this summer, would you want a brand new manager to be in control of that sort of budget straight off, or would you trust it to the man who has brought you unprecedented success?

Yes, they are in a mess of their own making, but they do like to wallow in self-aggrandising and nauseating pity don't they?

Your first point could be the one thing which gets him out in fairness - if the majority of the playing squad (especially those who they realistically want to keep) don't want to play for him - then backing him becomes an even bigger risk. Key players not wanting to play and still spending millions on players, could be a real mess. All depends on how genuine the reports are regarding the motivation of the existing team.

Your second point for me is all about the manager - the right guy may not get the full budget to spend but he could get a fair bit of it.

Most new managers would want to check out the existing squad to some extent as well - this to me will determine if he goes or not, the longer the leave it, the less time they have to get the right man, the worse off it leaves them. They need to act ASAP or keep him on.

It's great to see though!

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

Your first point could be the one thing which gets him out in fairness - if the majority of the playing squad (especially those who they realistically want to keep) don't want to play for him - then backing him becomes an even bigger risk. Key players not wanting to play and still spending millions on players, could be a real mess. All depends on how genuine the reports are regarding the motivation of the existing team.

Your second point for me is all about the manager - the right guy may not get the full budget to spend but he could get a fair bit of it.

Most new managers would want to check out the existing squad to some extent as well - this to me will determine if he goes or not, the longer the leave it, the less time they have to get the right man, the worse off it leaves them. They need to act ASAP or keep him on.

It's great to see though!

Agreed.

The one thing it proves beyond all reasonable doubt though is that they are not the paragon of all the virtues of good sense, business acumen and sporting insight as they and some of their cringeworthy acolytes like to claim.

They are a mess like so many other clubs! A rich mess, but a mess all the same.

 

[ernie78]

How ironic that (there, their, they're) is probably more spurs fans watch arsetv, than arse fans.

*there are

I think there there is a lot that we as Spurs fans can learn from this.

As far as I can see it, it is the fans who have undermined and destabilized the club with unrealistic expectations.

Wenger has done a good job at that club, he's finished ahead of us every season to date, got reliable champions league football and won a decent number of trophies.

Their fans, most of whom are glory supporters who don't remember the likes of Bruce Rioch, expect them to be signing megastars and winning premierships and get grumpy when they don't.

Reality check. Arsenal are a 3rd tier club in European football. They don't, and never will, have the money or prestige to buy championships like Chelsea and the Manchester clubs let alone the Reals, Barcas and Bayerns. They are like an ugly guy, who got lucky and had a half fit girlfriend at school and is now upset that models don't want to date him.

Ourselves as a club, are on the up, as we are doing what Arsenal used to do. We know we can't afford or attract Pogba's and Griezmanns, so we go for younger players or players through our youth system and try and coach and develop them.

I hope we can all remember the bad times (Anyone remember Jason Cundy), so if we do get some success, we don't turn into the stupid spoilt brats that seem to make up their support and start chanting 'Poch out' at the first sign of a bad season or because he "missed out" on a player who went to Real Madrid or the like.

Whilst I totally agree with the point you make I fear that some of our fan base have become or at least well on the way to becoming spoilt. Under Jol Europa games were sell outs, 1 season in CL and the next EL games were buy on the door as fans felt it was beneath us. You just have to see posts saying we should sack off the EL to see some fans feel it is beneath us. We haven't won anything since 2008 - nothing is beneath us.

 

[worcestersauce]

I think there there is a lot that we as Spurs fans can learn from this.

As far as I can see it, it is the fans who have undermined and destabilized the club with unrealistic expectations.

Wenger has done a good job at that club, he's finished ahead of us every season to date, got reliable champions league football and won a decent number of trophies.

Their fans, most of whom are glory supporters who don't remember the likes of Bruce Rioch, expect them to be signing megastars and winning premierships and get grumpy when they don't.

Reality check. Arsenal are a 3rd tier club in European football. They don't, and never will, have the money or prestige to buy championships like Chelsea and the Manchester clubs let alone the Reals, Barcas and Bayerns. They are like an ugly guy, who got lucky and had a half fit girlfriend at school and is now upset that models don't want to date him.

Ourselves as a club, are on the up, as we are doing what Arsenal used to do. We know we can't afford or attract Pogba's and Griezmanns, so we go for younger players or players through our youth system and try and coach and develop them.

I hope we can all remember the bad times (Anyone remember Jason Cundy), so if we do get some success, we don't turn into the stupid spoilt brats that seem to make up their support and start chanting 'Poch out' at the first sign of a bad season or because he "missed out" on a player who went to Real Madrid or the like.

Good point but remember they bought their best ever player under Bruce Rioch.
My problem with Wenger is, contrary to popular belief, he doesn't develop young players, Walcott, Oxlade chamberlain and Wilshire would be better players under a proper coach rather than one who coaches team systems and style to the detriment of individual improvement.

 

[mpickard2087]

I think there there is a lot that we as Spurs fans can learn from this.

As far as I can see it, it is the fans who have undermined and destabilized the club with unrealistic expectations.

Wenger has done a good job at that club, he's finished ahead of us every season to date, got reliable champions league football and won a decent number of trophies.

Their fans, most of whom are glory supporters who don't remember the likes of Bruce Rioch, expect them to be signing megastars and winning premierships and get grumpy when they don't.

Reality check. Arsenal are a 3rd tier club in European football. They don't, and never will, have the money or prestige to buy championships like Chelsea and the Manchester clubs let alone the Reals, Barcas and Bayerns. They are like an ugly guy, who got lucky and had a half fit girlfriend at school and is now upset that models don't want to date him.

Ourselves as a club, are on the up, as we are doing what Arsenal used to do. We know we can't afford or attract Pogba's and Griezmanns, so we go for younger players or players through our youth system and try and coach and develop them.

I hope we can all remember the bad times (Anyone remember Jason Cundy), so if we do get some success, we don't turn into the stupid spoilt brats that seem to make up their support and start chanting 'Poch out' at the first sign of a bad season or because he "missed out" on a player who went to Real Madrid or the like.

Of course things could be much worse in the grand scheme of things and fans over-react, it reminds me of a few years ago when our own fans said the club was in crisis and had fallen apart after plumbing to the depths of 6th place in the top league in the country. Their season still isn't over yet either, who knows they might , just might, put some results together and then with some luck steal a top four spot.

What annoys their fans though isn't the league positions on paper, its how stale and lacking in ambition their club is and that it's a repeat cycle. Wenger and the board are happy with the level they are at, just about managing to hang on to a top four place and banking the cash each season. Cups (until recently) treated as an inconvenience, doing nothing in the CL, and never addressing weaknesses such as being a bit soft and lacking a winning mentality. Being far too loyal to players who haven't improved and still play with the same weaknesses as 5-10 years ago. Almost always getting beaten with poor tactics against rival teams... And charging a fortune to the fans for the experience, whilst not even giving an impression of trying to improve and compete even higher up the league and in Europe.

Now for us watching them its hilarious and long may it continue, but I can see how their fans have reached breaking point.

 

[spursfan77]

None of that, if correct, explains why the players have stopped playing for him, if indeed they have.

The other conundrum for them (poor things) is, if they are really about to splurge £200m in the transfer market this summer, would you want a brand new manager to be in control of that sort of budget straight off, or would you trust it to the man who has brought you unprecedented success?

Yes, they are in a mess of their own making, but they do like to wallow in self-aggrandising and nauseating pity don't they?

They've stopped playing for him because so many of them are out of contract at the end of next season. It just adds to the uncertainty and creates doubt not just amongst those 8 or so players but also their mates who are on the team. Footballers need zero excuses whatsoever to slacken off or down tools, history has shown us that, and something like that just gives them a further excuse on top of the manager uncertainty. That's the main reason why they've stopped playing for him but contract uncertainty is the next one if you ask me.

 

[kev1nxxx]

*there are



Whilst I totally agree with the point you make I fear that some of our fan base have become or at least well on the way to becoming spoilt. Under Jol Europa games were sell outs, 1 season in CL and the next EL games were buy on the door as fans felt it was beneath us. You just have to see posts saying we should sack off the EL to see some fans feel it is beneath us. We haven't won anything since 2008 - nothing is beneath us.

Arsenal is beneath us

 

[remember91]

Of course things could be much worse in the grand scheme of things and fans over-react, it reminds me of a few years ago when our own fans said the club was in crisis and had fallen apart after plumbing to the depths of 6th place in the top league in the country. Their season still isn't over yet either, who knows they might , just might, put some results together and then with some luck steal a top four spot.

What annoys their fans though isn't the league positions on paper, its how stale and lacking in ambition their club is and that it's a repeat cycle. Wenger and the board are happy with the level they are at, just about managing to hang on to a top four place and banking the cash each season. Cups (until recently) treated as an inconvenience, doing nothing in the CL, and never addressing weaknesses such as being a bit soft and lacking a winning mentality. Being far too loyal to players who haven't improved and still play with the same weaknesses as 5-10 years ago. Almost always getting beaten with poor tactics against rival teams... And charging a fortune to the fans for the experience, whilst not even giving an impression of trying to improve and compete even higher up the league and in Europe.

Now for us watching them its hilarious and long may it continue, but I can see how their fans have reached breaking point.

I agree with a lot of your points, but I still think that the fans are undermining the club.

They have been soft in midfield for eons, a premiership proven midfield terrier would do them the world of good, but if last summer they had gone for say, Victor Wanyama (£12M), their fans would have been up in arms that he wasn't good enough for the club and Wenger should be "splashing the cash" and they should have gone with someone more glamorous like say, Granit Xhaka (£38M), well we've seen how that worked out.

Now a lot of our fans weren't too keen on Wanyama, because he wasn't glamorous enough playing for Southampton and a number of people on this forum were saying that we should have signed exotic foreign players I've never heard of instead. Wanyama has been great in my opinion and Poch was in a secure enough position to not be under pressure over transfers and do what he thought was right for the club not what the fans wanted. I'm just hoping that if we do win a thing or too we won't join cloud cuckoo land like their lot and start undermining our own club.

 

[ernie78]

Arsenal is beneath us

True

 

[Buggsy61]

I agree with a lot of your points, but I still think that the fans are undermining the club.

They have been soft in midfield for eons, a premiership proven midfield terrier would do them the world of good, but if last summer they had gone for say, Victor Wanyama (£12M), their fans would have been up in arms that he wasn't good enough for the club and Wenger should be "splashing the cash" and they should have gone with someone more glamorous like say, Granit Xhaka (£38M), well we've seen how that worked out.

Now a lot of our fans weren't too keen on Wanyama, because he wasn't glamorous enough playing for Southampton and a number of people on this forum were saying that we should have signed exotic foreign players I've never heard of instead. Wanyama has been great in my opinion and Poch was in a secure enough position to not be under pressure over transfers and do what he thought was right for the club not what the fans wanted. I'm just hoping that if we do win a thing or too we won't join cloud cuckoo land like their lot and start undermining our own club.

Unfortunately when we get the new stadium we are going to get our fair share of fickle knobs, and am already starting to see a lot more Spurs shirts about (I don't think its my imagination/wishful thinking).
It is time for a change at Arsenal - Wenger is missing the plain bleeding obvious about a midfield enforcer and decent defenders, and seriously how can you spunk away so much money on two ends of a pantomime horse like Xhaka and Mustafi. Hope they give him the £200M!

 

[the watson]

As far as I can see it, it is the fans who have undermined and destabilized the club with unrealistic expectations.

Spot on, Spurs fans have known for decades how unbearably arrogant and delusional Arsenal fans are. Now that we have social media, and AFTV, I feel that our sentiments are shared with the rest of the league.

Only as early as the beginning of last season did Arsenal fans self proclaim their midfield 'the best in the league', yet now they are flying banners over games and declaring those same midfielders 'unfit to wear the shirt'. Even Claude, probably one of the most level headed in his analysis of the club, gave this "I think something special is happening here" interview at the start of this season. Follow the links and you can even see Troopz referring to Walcott as a 'wizard'. Unbelievable contrast to the current state of affairs. These are the same people who would see wholesale changes in the entire squad, management and board. The same people who bemoan how predictable Arsenal's seasons are, wanking eachother off over a 2-0 win over Basel.

We all have a giggle at their little strops when things go wrong. Let's not forget the classless arrogance that oozes out of every facet of the club when things go well: the dancing in a line after a goal, laughing in RvN's face after missing a penalty, the showboating, the 'short' penalty, St Totteringhams day, the voting en masse for Arsenal players on online polls, abusing cabbies in Spurs hats. Wenger too, I actually respect his philosophy on how football should be played, but feel he is on the receiving end of a huge dose of karma after years of smugness.

I wonder what West Ham fans think when they see Arsenal's meltdown? West Ham get served Snodgrass, Zaza on loan and a cheap athletics stadium - Arsenal got a £100m investment of World Cup winners and highly regarded talent to play in their world class stadium. An unfair comparison perhaps given the sizes of the clubs, but reading Twitter and watching AFTV you'd think it was Arsenal that were in a relegation battle, Arsenal with the two Daves and Lady Brady in their board.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the fans are the biggest factor the downfall of Arsenal (although their support is notoriously silent, their fans are flying banners over games, holding the ball back from youngsters to abuse them, infighting and booing and harassing on social media)... But they absolutely deserve this downward spiral, long may it continue.

 

[remember91]

Unfortunately when we get the new stadium we are going to get our fair share of fickle knobs, and am already starting to see a lot more Spurs shirts about (I don't think its my imagination/wishful thinking).
It is time for a change at Arsenal - Wenger is missing the plain bleeding obvious about a midfield enforcer and decent defenders, and seriously how can you spunk away so much money on two ends of a pantomime horse like Xhaka and Mustafi. Hope they give him the £200M!

Yep, that £200M could be very amusing.

If anyone knows Arsene Wenger, could they let him know I've got the perfect player for him. Powerful midfielder, full French International, had a really good European championship, exotic name, must be playing in some fancy foreign league as he has not been seen in the Premiership this season and an absolute bargain for only £30M.

 

[Dougal]

Yep, that £200M could be very amusing.

If anyone knows Arsene Wenger, could they let him know I've got the perfect player for him. Powerful midfielder, full French International, had a really good European championship, exotic name, must be playing in some fancy foreign league as he has not been seen in the Premiership this season and an absolute bargain for only £30M.

£35m if dealing with Bond Villians.

 

[Shadydan]

Those saying that Arsenal need a midfield enforcer are missing the point surely, what they need is a complete overhaul in their mentality. They've needed midfield enforcers (Xhaka, Elneny, Coquelin) They've needed players with winning mentalities (Cech, Sanchez), They've needed an experienced defender (Mustafi) and yet here we are yet again. The same fans saying that they need Benzema and they'll win the league, no it's totally missing the point. What they need to do is to rid of their mediocre mentality and lack of fight and address that first and foremost and improve the players who are already at the club to turn them into leaders. Throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix it...if it does fix it then it's temporary.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

Those saying that Arsenal need a midfield enforcer are missing the point surely, what they need is a complete overhaul in their mentality. They've needed midfield enforcers (Xhaka, Elneny, Coquelin) They've needed players with winning mentalities (Cech, Sanchez), They've needed an experienced defender (Mustafi) and yet here we are yet again. The same fans saying that they need Benzema and they'll win the league, no it's totally missing the point. What they need to do is to rid of their mediocre mentality and lack of fight and address that first and foremost and improve the players who are already at the club to turn them into leaders. Throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix it...if it does fix it then it's temporary.

Agreed.

If anything, throwing money at it has caused a large part of their problems. Not in transfer fees so much, but in repeatedly rewarding mediocre and complacent players with fat contracts.