Aspirations?-Champions League & Club Direction (& a rant?)

[Harry Barber]

Success will come when the players, manager and some fans stop believing we are punching above our weight, and start believing that we are in fact, good enough.
This punching above our weight thing, is just an excuse we wheel out, every time things go pear shaped.

 

[thinktank]

If people doesn't know what Chadli do, their opinion is of no value.

There, that's me being ****. It happens.

Agreed, my semilar hound friend.

 

[Donki]

Success will come when the players, manager and some fans stop believing we are punching above our weight, and start believing that we are in fact, good enough.
This punching above our weight thing, is just an excuse we wheel out, every time things go pear shaped.

Not if you look at the wages spend and revenue streams, the teams above us have it's clearly not an excuse, obviously bar Everton this season.

 

[Harry Barber]

Not if you look at the wages spend and revenue streams, the teams above us have it's clearly not an excuse, obviously bar Everton this season.

Now you're getting technical with stats
Look at current squads. and tell me why Liverpool are on course to win the title?
It has nothing to do with wages or revenue streams.

 

[Bobbins]

Success will come when the players, manager and some fans stop believing we are punching above our weight, and start believing that we are in fact, good enough.
This punching above our weight thing, is just an excuse we wheel out, every time things go pear shaped.

That's a complete denial of all logic.

You can't make up for tens of millions of pounds worth of inferior revenue by saying 'Yeah we really believe in ourselves as winners!'. This isn't Any Given Sunday.

 

[Donki]

Now you're getting technical with stats
Look at current squads. and tell me why Liverpool are on course to win the title?
It has nothing to do with wages or revenue streams.

Ha I hate stats, I'm not disagreeing with you I believe the talent was in our squad and still is in outer squad to do better than we are doing. When people say, "were punching above our weight" IMO it's the fact we don't have the resources of the other teams above us. Liverpool success this season is down to a few very good players, 1 worldy, a boss who knows what's he's doing and has been given time and no Europeon football.

 

[SlickMongoose]

Success will come when the players, manager and some fans stop believing we are punching above our weight, and start believing that we are in fact, good enough.
This punching above our weight thing, is just an excuse we wheel out, every time things go pear shaped.

I think there are different ways of saying it.

There's the Sherwood/Redknapp version:

"This club has never had it so good"
"We can't compete with the top teams"

Or there's the much better (that i've just made up):

"We may not be able to compete on wages or transfer fees, but with hard work and team spirit we have the quality on the pitch to beat anyone"

Or some variation thereof. It is possible to turn it into a positive, rather than using it to lower expectations and trying to spin the manager's performance.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

The second you release the Top Four monkey off of your own back, then the pressure is released and enjoying football again becomes easier. I did this at the end of last season when the scars of Chelsea winning the CL and us collapsing twice to Arsenal had all occurred and I realised that we are facing an almost impossible uphill struggle against finances that we cannot compete with ( plus we blew some narrow windows to push on ). Once you admit and accept this, everything is a lot more enjoyable, and also less sore when we fall short and finish a very respectable 5th. Then maybe, we will get a nice surprise along the way if we do fight all the odds and qualify for the CL at some point

Good earlier posts on this

Class post, EJW. Then Tim fucking Sherwood comes along and makes it all completely irrelevant

 

[Harry Barber]

I think there are different ways of saying it.

There's the Sherwood/Redknapp version:
"This club has never had it so good"
"We can't compete with the top teams"

Or there's the much better (that i've just made up):

"We may not be able to compete on wages or transfer fees, but with hard work and team spirit we have the quality on the pitch to beat anyone"

Or some variation thereof. It is possible to turn it into a positive, rather than using it to lower expectations and trying to spin the manager's performance.

Well said Mongoose. More eloquently than me

 

[shelfboy68]

I've said variations on a theme in a series of threads in the last few days, and can't be bothered to write everything all over again.

Suffice to say:

This is the end of an era. There won't be anymore challenging for the CL places for at least a few years. There's no more Modric, VDV, Bale or King and no-one coming along to replace them either. LVG was our last hope of clinging on to the top 4 fight and making a final attempt to break into the group for good. That's very probably gone now.

We should go back to the Jol/Arnesen days. Back when it became exciting to see Spurs on the up after years in the doldrums. Bring through some of our young players (as we are doing with Kane - use Tom Carroll, Alex Pritchard). Focus on British players where possible. Focus on playing good football, in the right way, and instilling that back into the club at every level. Get a manager who understands the game, what makes good football, can work with young players.

Stop buying whichever Carlos Kickaball is nearing the end of his contract who we can make a profit from. Stop buying and selling so many players full stop. Let the fans reconnect with the players in the team. Don't spend tens of millions on players untried in the PL - I was all for most of the signings made in the summer, especially Lamela and Soldado, but I've been proven very wrong. Ability is not the only factor in success, unfortunately. I'd rather go for the likes of Mirallas at Everton than another Lamela (though I doubt he would come to us, he's a good example).

If we're not going to challenge at the top (and we're not, for a long time), then I'd at least like to feel some passion and pride in Spurs again. Playing good football with players who are playing for the shirt, with a few English lads thrown in hopefully, is a good way to do that.

I'm ready for a storm of disagreement but I'm just saying what I'd like to see within the bounds of realism so I could enjoy supporting my club again.

Seems strange that you are a bit negative towards the club as traditionally your quite pro Levy and usually give neg rep's or shitty responses to others saying this on here.
It can't be all bad surely some key purchases in the right area's and a manager who can inspire and organise a defence/team should see us perform better next year.
In addition of course keeping as many players as possible and not selling the Crown jewel's would help but don't forget we are sixth at the moment we are not too far off fourth spot, the main problem this year has been too many defeats and being massacred in the process.
Our record against our main rivals has been shit but if we can improve it to a bit similar to last year we won't be too far off yes we won't or unlikely to ever win the league but we can get amongst the others that I'm confident about.

 

[Azazello]

People talk like these 2 things can't go hand in hand. IMO attacking football doesnt mean, 10 players on the pitch running forward to the opposition box. Attacking football should be quick, assertive and a clear idea of what each players role is, 3 things we havent shown this season. I cant recall a match we have went out of the blocks firing, mayb Chealsa this season but they are few and far between. We go out looking dissintrested and lacking in heart. Get a manager who can motivate and can give clear instruction, I dont need a guy who can retain the ball 60% of the time each game.

I am not saying we should hire him but Tony Pulis knows how to set a team up, he knows how to get his players to do what he wants and it works. I got flamed a little before for saying this but I think his Crystal Palace team do play some decent stuff. Again not saying we should hire him, but more that its possible to get a manager who can motivate and give clear concise instrustions.

Looking at what he's achieved at Palace, I can't help but wonder if he's exactly what we need, even if many wouldn't want him.

 

[Donki]

Looking at what he's achieved at Palace, I can't help but wonder if he's exactly what we need, even if many wouldn't want him.

His signings at Stoke were all round pretty bad, and his directness that he has to impose with his teams isn't "our way" that's the only 2 things against him..... that and he wears a tracksuit and baseball cap.

His football is definitely prettier than at Stoke and his signings have improved too. Hes one of those guys I would like to see given a chance, does he only know one way or would he set up differently with a different squad of players? Who knows, could you imagine the if he was given the chance with us? Jesus I wouldn't even like to think about it, he would be fucked b4 he started.

 

[Azazello]

His signings at Stoke were all round pretty bad, and his directness that he has to impose with his teams isn't "our way" that's the only 2 things against him..... that and he wears a tracksuit and baseball cap.

His football is definitely prettier than at Stoke and his signings have improved too. Hes one of those guys I would like to see given a chance, does he only know one way or would he set up differently with a different squad of players? Who knows, could you imagine the if he was given the chance with us? Jesus I wouldn't even like to think about it, he would be fucked b4 he started.

It'd be mayhem. And he'd never be accepted, no matter how well he did. Shame. Arsenal will snap him up once Wenger moves on.

 

[Pauleta01]

The Champions League was set up to provide financial security & stability for the elite clubs in Europe. AC Milan realised how much they lost in revenue when they did not qualify one year that they kicked the ball off. The top clubs needed little persuading given the revenue steams the completion generates.


We are not one of Europe's elite clubs. We never really have been. We've had our peaks & some fantastic years. But what is our club about? That’s where we are at the moment and, in my view, the key question we have to ask as we move forward.


Our recent qualification for the Champions League was fantastic. I had tears in my eyes & the hairs on the back of my neck stood up as I listened to that Champions League song being played at the Lane for our first game, evoking past memories of glory nights at the Lane-Anderlecht, Bayern Munich & not so glorious results but great, exciting evenings against Madrid & Barcelona from the 80s. Unbelievable memories created. And yet, unfortunately, unrealistic expectations.


Harry Redknapp did well but so much of football is about luck and timing. He had a perfect storm of under-performing, quality players with at least 2 of world class potential (Bale & Modric) with a manager who ‘set them free’ in a football manner from the tactical restraints imposed by Ramos (and he could speak English). We added to that another in VDV who in my view fitted that category, although it would seem that was more of the Chairman’s doing than Redknapp & was fortunate that we were in the right place when he was made available. He motivated the players. Got the best out of those 3.


How much of our reaching those dizzy heights was also due to City’s investment not quite kicking in & poor seasons from Chelsea (in the league), Liverpool & Arsenal? This season United have had a dramatic fall from grace yet replaced by Liverpool’s resurgence, the latter being a vindication of what happens if you keep world class player(s).


AVB was never a fit for the Club. He did not understand what Spurs is about. This is really the key point I seek to make. We must not make such a mistake again with the next managerial appointment.


Let’s get real. The Club has already stated they intend to build a new stadium which will require significant investment. The economy is not such that they will easily get favourable terms on the necessary borrowing that they may have got 7 or 8 years ago. This will mean a period of leanness in terms of spending power. We need that revenue to be able to compete in the medium and longer term. Today Liverpool have announced that they intend to increase Anfield’s capacity to just short of 60k, Chelsea soon the same.


My view is we have punched well above our weight since Martin Jol was in charge. It’s only Arsenal’s incompetence that has meant we are even in touch with them. They have paid their stadium off, sit on a fortune, have gate receipts over £1 million per game more than us & have had Champions League income of over £20million very year more than we have.


In Liverpool, Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Everton and ourselves there will be 7 teams chasing that coveted top-4 spot most years. All bar Everton have resources significantly exceeding those available to us.


Champions League qualification should be an aspiration when we have a team that is playing to that standard and capable of competing.


It feels like the soul has disappeared from the Club. That we are prepared to sell our grandmothers to qualify for the Champions League. We’re happy with one-null scraped victories or talk about dominating possession. We used to crucify Brendan Rogers last year when he made such comments after we’d beaten Liverpool yet AVB did that all the time! There’s too much statistical analysis of the game, OPTA indices, figures on how many times each player passed wind per half etc. Anyone can play 10 yard square-passes ‘Ray Wilkins’ style on the half way line & maintain possession.


Surely what matters is about trying to win the game. Trying to beat a man. The emphasis is on the word ‘trying’. Such is the critical atmosphere at the Lane some matches I do think the players are scared to take a chance for fear they may lose possession. Is that what we are about? Audere est Facere? Can you imagine Ardiles, Gascoigne, Hoddle, Waddle playing in such an atmosphere? These are the sorts of players that affect football matches by scoring or creating goals and chances.


In my view Sherwood is spot on what he says about the a calibre of our players. Too many are run of the mill. Lloris is a world class goalkeeper. Eriksen has potential. Vertonghen is capable if his heart is in it. The rest? You make your own minds up. Does anyone really believe Danny Rose & Kyle Naughton are credible Spurs full backs? Is Townsend more than a flash in the pan? We have squandered the fortune money received for Bale. Chadli-what does he do? (I’m not being critical I just don’t know-he has no pace, he can’t beat a man, he can’t tackle, he can’t pass & he can’t shoot-OK before you all say ‘he scored that goal at Newcastle’ let’s not forget so did Timothee Atouba); Paulinho-the game passes him by; Chiriches (ball-playing centre half prone to errors); Soldado (lovely touch but cannot hit a cow’s backside with a banjo-harsh I know but I think he will come good with the right service); Capoue (Sandro Junior); that other bloke that no-one’s see. Lamela has that potential. Let’s hope he is the player we hope he is. Otherwise we sold our most exciting attacking talent (arguably ever at the Club) and did not replace the things he brought-pace & goals.


In the rush for the Champions League qualification we’ve forgotten what we are about. That fantastic video narrated by Roger Lloyd-Pack. The point is we have to lick our wounds & rebuild. That will take some time & I do not want to watch a team trying to bore out 1-0 victories. We’ve always been inconsistent But with inconsistency comes great highs. You cant’ have the highs without the lows.


Reality is we will lose a number of players in the Summer & not be able to attract anyone in the top category. So we develop young players & blend them with more experienced campaigners.


Let’s be patient. Let’s invest in young players and let them learn (but not Rose or Naughton). Let’s buy pace (please) on the wings. How boring are inverted wingers? Let’s appoint a manager who will build for the medium term but with flair, excitement, creativity. Let’s pass the ball & take people on. A manager who will understand what the Club is about & have us play the Tottenham way. That should be the main criteria the Board apply.


And please, please, please…let’s score some more goals.


Controversial I know. I expect many will disagree. Just my thoughts & would love to hear yours.


PS I will be renewing my season ticket whatever!

Good post, and despite the protestations against the length of the article I really enjoyed reading a balanced view point.

I have long held the view that the essence of most teams in the modern PL has been lost, and although is banded that the EPL is the most marketable product in world football one if its USP's is slowly eroding as it looses it soul.

As much as people hate Liverpool on here, them winning the PL is the best thing for Football as they have not purchased the title and will have done so based on good coaching, fire in the belly and pace in the areas of the pitch that count.

I think back to the great teams I used to watch growing up in the late 80s and 90s (when I 1st fell in love with football after Mexico 86 as a 9 year old) and they all held similar constructs! Great but eccentric Goalkeeper, Older experienced centre half, fast fullbacks, young tricky wingers, hard man in midfield with a creative schemer and out and out goal scoring partnership. For the great Milan team read Baresi, Costacurta, Albertini, Van Basten, for Ajax, they had Blind, DeBoer, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert etc.

My point is these perfectly balanced teams worked to a formula that seems to be forgotten nowadays with clubs just stockpiling players and coaches picking reams of functional players (like AVB filled our team with). To have an essence at a team, you need a mix that gets the balance I describe, home grown players who know what the club means (2-3 at least) every great team has had that! and only 3-4 foreign top draw players that have grit and determination, most of our signings over the past two to four years have been technically great but do not give a sh@t! I am pretty certain the game has not changed so much that if you do not fight as a team you get steam rolled and quite frankly Sherwood is 100% spot on when he remarked that we are too nice, and not gritty!

In short, I want us to hire a coach that has an ethos to play attractive football, use the players coming through if they are good enough (Kane, Townsend, Carrol and Livermore all seem good enough given time to develop and will run through brick walls for the team), buy up the young talent from the UK and only introduce 1-2 non PL experienced players a season.

As for who could we entrust the next 5 years with (and it will need that) DeBoer has been successful at Ajax as he gets Ajax! As much as I would like him at Spurs, we do just not know if it is transferrable! I would like a Spurs man with pedigree and that limits us to Hoddle or Klinnsman. I am convinced that is the only way to return to the ethos of what Tottenham is.

 

[shelfboy68]

Good post, and despite the protestations against the length of the article I really enjoyed reading a balanced view point.

I have long held the view that the essence of most teams in the modern PL has been lost, and although is banded that the EPL is the most marketable product in world football one if its USP's is slowly eroding as it looses it soul.

As much as people hate Liverpool on here, them winning the PL is the best thing for Football as they have not purchased the title and will have done so based on good coaching, fire in the belly and pace in the areas of the pitch that count.

I think back to the great teams I used to watch growing up in the late 80s and 90s (when I 1st fell in love with football after Mexico 86 as a 9 year old) and they all held similar constructs! Great but eccentric Goalkeeper, Older experienced centre half, fast fullbacks, young tricky wingers, hard man in midfield with a creative schemer and out and out goal scoring partnership. For the great Milan team read Baresi, Costacurta, Albertini, Van Basten, for Ajax, they had Blind, DeBoer, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert etc.

My point is these perfectly balanced teams worked to a formula that seems to be forgotten nowadays with clubs just stockpiling players and coaches picking reams of functional players (like AVB filled our team with). To have an essence at a team, you need a mix that gets the balance I describe, home grown players who know what the club means (2-3 at least) every great team has had that! and only 3-4 foreign top draw players that have grit and determination, most of our signings over the past two to four years have been technically great but do not give a sh@t! I am pretty certain the game has not changed so much that if you do not fight as a team you get steam rolled and quite frankly Sherwood is 100% spot on when he remarked that we are too nice, and not gritty!

In short, I want us to hire a coach that has an ethos to play attractive football, use the players coming through if they are good enough (Kane, Townsend, Carrol and Livermore all seem good enough given time to develop and will run through brick walls for the team), buy up the young talent from the UK and only introduce 1-2 non PL experienced players a season.

As for who could we entrust the next 5 years with (and it will need that) DeBoer has been successful at Ajax as he gets Ajax! As much as I would like him at Spurs, we do just not know if it is transferrable! I would like a Spurs man with pedigree and that limits us to Hoddle or Klinnsman. I am convinced that is the only way to return to the ethos of what Tottenham is.

There is currently no one out there to my knowledge who is ready to manage us as being a player previous.
To an extent Harry got us our Tottenham back and he had no link to the club as a player so it's more of a case of finding the right man which is something we struggle to do.
As for five years that is quite a long time we can't afford to be still trying to find our way in that length of time too many players will leave before then plus we need to go into the new stadium in a strong position on the pitch to attract player's and fill seat's

 

[Pauleta01]

There is currently no one out there to my knowledge who is ready to manage us as being a player previous.
To an extent Harry got us our Tottenham back and he had no link to the club as a player so it's more of a case of finding the right man which is something we struggle to do.
As for five years that is quite a long time we can't afford to be still trying to find our way in that length of time too many players will leave before then plus we need to go into the new stadium in a strong position on the pitch to attract player's and fill seat's

Agree on the Harry point, but he knew what the club was about he grew up 10 miles down the road and new what it meant when people said the Tottenham way! and always knew what it meant to put a balanced team out. There are no Harry's out there that I can see waiting in the wings. As for fill seats - we have been selling out 36K for as long as I can remember no matter how bad the team was - Kerslake, Vega, Nethercott, Edinburgh, Gray, Doherty, Sinton, Booth (some of the worst players I have seen in a Spurs shirt) all played in a packed stadium week in week out!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Jesus, we've finished (likely) one place below where we finished under Jol twice and Redknapp once, despite the opposition at the top end getting better than ever and us going through a major transition and changing mangers.

We have some very, very good footballers knocking around this squad, some finished articles and some extremely promising youngsters that we are producing and have bought. Several of them have just come through their first EPL season.

Imagine how Liverpool fans were feeling last season, finishing lower (a good few points) below us. As much as I am extremely disappointed we sacked AVB (@archibald1882 is completely wrong claiming he was incompatible with Spurs, he was incompatible with inpatient dickeheads with an over inflated sense of entitlement to entertain Jamie Redknapp is all - and he's also wrong about us never being a European elite side, we may not have won the European Cup/CL but we were the first british team to win a european trophy and had a very good european profile throughout the 60's, 70's 80's) but if we can keep our best players, add a couple of quality defenders and a coach who doesn't have a a fucking big chip on his shoulder and the tactical ingenuity of ford cortina, we may well have a decent season.

 

[kaz Hirai]

Jesus, we've finished (likely) one place below where we finished under Jol twice and Redknapp once, despite the opposition at the top end getting better than ever and us going through a major transition and changing mangers.



We have some very, very good footballers knocking around this squad, some finished articles and some extremely promising youngsters that we are producing and have bought. Several of them have just come through their first EPL season.

Imagine how Liverpool fans were feeling last season, finishing lower (a good few points) below us. As much as I am extremely disappointed we sacked AVB (@archibald1882 is completely wrong claiming he was incompatible with Spurs, he was incompatible with inpatient dickeheads with an over inflated sense of entitlement to entertain Jamie Redknapp is all - and he's also wrong about us never being a European elite side, we may not have won the European Cup/CL but we were the first british team to win a european trophy and had a very good european profile throughout the 60's, 70's 80's) but if we can keep our best players, add a couple of quality defenders and a coach who doesn't have a a fucking big chip on his shoulder and the tactical ingenuity of ford cortina, we may well have a decent season.

Lol BC was just to post similar so you've spared me the trouble.

Tim Sherwood's reign has truly broken some fans, the despair is over the top.
Its been our worst season for awhile yet we'll still likely finish 6th on around 70 points and no more than 10 points off 4th

3
A mere 3 victories away from being right up there with arse

 

[Hotspur33]

I think what we need right now is a Cup success. One of the best things AVB did was take the Europa League seriously.

It will be difficult for us to finish in the top four next season. But we could win a cup. That would give the team a huge lift.

 

[Bowlesinho]

.....add a couple of quality defenders and a coach who doesn't have a a fucking big chip on his shoulder and the tactical ingenuity of ford cortina, we may well have a decent season.

Who we hire as manager this summer (assuming Tim goes) will make or break us as CL elect team or mid table fodder in my mind.

We need someone to come in and work with what is a talented squad to get the best out of them and play the right way. Looking at the difference between teams from last year to this shows how much influence a manager has over the side.

Man Utd - SAF overachieved with that squad last year.
Everton - With a few additions Martinez has marched Everton up the table
Liverpool - BR working wonders

I'm very much in the camp that AVB should have been given more time, I honestly believe h would have turned it round (but that's an irrelevant argument now). I think the impatience of our fans stemmed from the slow football, and it was impatience of our fans and board that cost AVB his job.

I've seen the links to FDB and LVG but in all honesty we someone who plays more direct (that isn't to say long balls forward) but more forward passes (or more vertical than horizontal passes as AVB would say)