Attitude or Tactics?

[Strikeb4ck]

No doubting Harry had his weaknesses, most managers we have ever had, had them. But you cannot deny we saw plenty of entertaining football under him and also a much tougher looking team than i've seen since.

I made this post in the match thread yesterday.

I think with the players we have, we don't necessarily need a tactics-oriented manager - we'd be better off with a man manager. Someone who will motivate the players, get them playing with fire, get them to show some guts...tell them to get stuck in but at the same time remind them they are good enough to let their talents show. We played great football under Redknapp because the players were confident, there was a team spirit, a belief, cohesion, etc...and they were able to play with freedom.

I don't think it's any coincidence that a manager like Arry had his best time with us - his man management style worked perfectly with players who were clearly in the upper echelons of talent for the league but just needed guidance. The same happened in the Championship with QPR, where he had the best players, he just had to encourage them - once they were in the Prem and no longer that good of a side comparatively, his style of management doesn't work, because the players need both confidence and a setup, which is why Pulis is so good with bottom 10 clubs.

With AVB/Poch, our players are conforming, not creating. They've looked lost since AVB replaced Poch. It's no coincidence that Tim, the most similar to Harry, had us playing better football than AVB/Poch, despite a totally out-of-harmony and demotivated squad.

I like Poch but I don't like him as a manager. I think it would be really interesting to take a look at someone like Sean Dyche or Alex Neil.

 

[Damian99]

Yes AVB had Bale for one season but Bale, isn't Bale, Modric, vdV and King is it FFS???

Stop talking shit mate, how come we never won league titles with Hoddle, Waddle, Gazza, Lineker ?? Those players still need to be coached and a team built around them FFS.



We scored more and conceded less with Harry than we have done since, but of course it was ALL cos of those four you mention LOL

24 league appearances was the most King managed in a season under Harry and only SIX in one of those campaigns. The season we got CL only 20 appearances plus no VDV and a very young Gareth Bale.

I take you are one of these Harry Haters i am talking about??

 

[Sevens]

Yes AVB had Bale for one season but Bale, isn't Bale, Modric, vdV and King is it FFS???

AVB could have had VDV but didn't want him. To be fair AVB and Poch are like clones tactically and VDV wouldn't fit into their system. Redknapp didn't have King the last two seasons either really. 10/11 he played just 6 times and 11/12 he was finished. Also Redknapp helped Bale and Modric become what they became. If Poch fails and Kane and Eriksen go on to be superstars will people blame Poch for not getting the best out of them in hindsight? Not that I am saying Harry didn't get the best out of Bale and Modric because I think he did.

The blame for me falls squarely on AVB's shoulders. He tried to revolutionise when he came in and he simply didn't need to. We lost Modric and King yes. But Vertonghen was already lined up as a King replacement and Dembele was an adequate Modric replacement in terms of keeping with the same style. That would have left us with a first XI of:

Lloris, Walker, Dawson, Vertonghen, Ekotto, Lennon, Parker, Dembele, Bale, VDV, Adebayor in a 4-4-1-1. Exciting football there.

And then Bale goes but brings in soooooooooooo much money that it shouldn't be hard to buy two or three players to really strengthen that team. Instead we go for revolution again and scattergun the purchase of 7 new players. Crazy.

As for Poch, the team he inherited he could have switched to a similar style of play and system as under Redknapp and it would have been more entertaining.

Lloris, Walker, Dawson, Vertonghen, Rose, Lennon, Sandro, Dembele, Townsend, Eriksen, Kane in a 4-4-1-1. Funny thing is other than the ridiculous decision to sell Sandro (now we have Dier in that role, unbelievable) that team above can pretty much be played now if we signed a decent defensive midfielder.

 

[fortworthspur]

Ive about given up on Ericksen in his current role. He just doesnt do enough work tracking back to retain possession. You hate to limit his passing by putting him outside but he often leaves a huge hole in our formation.

 

[TropicalYid]

We need a leader. A player that isnt 21 and promising, but 27-29 with experience, PL experience.

 

[iluvsteffenfreund]

All of the above and personnel is the problem. Levy wants us to survive until the stadium is built. So we go with the kids. Unfortunately everyone else above us will be moving further away from us. The same frailties from last season under poch are still there. He hasn't recognised this or at least done anything about it. Therefore how can we have faith ?

 

[jonnyp]

Our midfield is not good enough. Not enough movement, no tempo in our passing, very little creativity. And it seems every player we sign receives a lobotomy as part of the medical - what the hell was Toby thinking?

 

[HotspurFC1950]

We need a leader. A player that isnt 21 and promising, but 27-29 with experience, PL experience.

Ideas ?

 

[ralphs bald spot]

We need a leader but some of our play is verging on stupidity -

the two centre halfs splitting might work in pre season but it puts you under immediate pressure when a side pushes on you. Stoke pushed up on the centre backs and then we have Hugo trying his chips to the full backs. Surely we had to put the ball into the other half and let Harry battle for it and get men working off of him. We don't do the dirty work winning the second ball and making them drop off, basically we need to be winning the ball further up the field.

As soon you have the nonsense of this split centre halves from the keeper, we are having to make five passes before we get over the hall way line, it allows the opposition to dictate the game especially when we have no pace or runners of the forward - the few times we caused problems for them yesterday was Kane dropping off and supplying passes to runners in behind, otherwise we are fairly toothless. I am not saying don't pass it out from the back but at least mix it up otherwise it is so predictable.

Our midfield is to nice - I thought yesterday we were fortunate to get a point through bad tactics and some awful substitutions

 

[spurs9]

I'm not going to over-react as we are only 2 bloody games into the season however I was at the game again today and really that was so disappointing to throw away the 2-0 lead after a very solid 1st half display.

But what was to blame, was it an attitude/character problem as our team is young and inexperienced and didn't know how to close out the game, or was it poor tactics, or are we simply not good enough?

Stoke were there for the taking, yes they're a decent enough side but we are at home and those are the type of games we should be winning for sure.

I'm not sure what all this pass it to the CBs from the goal-kicks is all about, we nearly conceded a goal from it and Hugo smacked it past the full-backs countless times which just puts pressure on us again, we're not bloody Barcelona, but then again we did nearly score from lovely build up play on one occasion so who knows.

The lack of balance for me is still very worrying, we have no width so when we need to switch play we can't as there is no RAM or LAM in their correct position. I'm all for consistency and backing a manager but I just don't think we have the right players for 4-2-3-1 still and our football is often pretty turgid, I'm not going to lie I'm starting to already see things that concern me about Potch but I really really hope I'm just being picky and am wrong + once/if we get a few new faces it mabye the football will pick up but right now it is quite boring

Then we have some strange subs from Potch, if Kane had a knock fair enough and mabye Mason was tired but we completely went to pot after we made those changes.

Bentaleb also stormed off down the tunnel, pissed off that we lost or pissed off that he didn't start? Not good from him.

We came out for the 2nd half far too slowly and let them back into the game, we invited them onto us far too much and lacked attacking guile or shape/creativity and also seemed to have poor options off the bench, I'm not blaming this all on Lamela as I want him to do well more than most but he came on, made 4 fouls and gave the ball away about 4 times, NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!

Some positives from today and still early days and glad we've signed N'jie, hopefully he will add some much needed pace but we really need to address a few other issues and stop being so fucking Spursy. Potch said he has tried to work on the defending over the summer and whilst Toby looks good and we do look fairly organised our mentality needs looking at, we lack leaders like when we had King,Dawson,Parker,VDV etc.

Long way to go but what needs addressing the most? :
-Attitude/character
-Tactics
-Players?

COYS.

Nice post. In my opinion it was down to a few things.

1) The front 4 just stopped pressing once Kane went off (if memory serves, it may have been before that). I remember a few times, we played the ball up, Chadli halfheartedly challenged the CB for the ball and then just walked back, not even a token jog. When this happens it gives the team more time on the ball, the opposition CB's can bring the ball out (like Muniesa did many times) and one of our CM's have to close them down, leaving space behind them, which a defender has to fill in, leaving space where they were etc. This allowed Ireland to cause havoc.

2) When the opposition team are having a good spell of attack (all teams will at some point in a game), you need to have a striker who can hold up the ball and a skillful player with pace in attack, which stops the opposition from committing more men forward and gives the defence an outlet. When Kane went off, we had neither.

3) Even when Stoke were having a good spell, they weren't causing us much problems in the second half, but then Lamela came on and gave away free kicks in dangerous positions, which allowed them to work on their final ball and gain confidence.

4) We had several opportunities to put the game to bed, but a lack of movement and pace coupled with a poor final ball saw that break down far to easily.

5) A stupid mistake by Alderweireld gave them a way back in, gave them a massive boost and took the wind out of our sails. Up until then, I would say we looked the more likely to score.

6) Neither of our CB's thrive on dealing with balls played into them. We need a commanding CB to partner one of the two and I think Dier could do this role eventually and from what I have heard about Wimmer (I haven't seen him play yet) he might well be the answer too. The equaliser, just seemed far too easy.

7) Poor subs. The bench didn't have many options, but with Chadli not holding the ball up or pressing, he should have gone off and we should have brought on Alli, to give us more energy in midfield and he also has decent pace and drives the ball forward, which would have been very useful. We could have then put Dembele up front (where he started his career) and although he isn't much of a goal threat, he is very good at keeping the ball.

Hopefully N'jie solves the pace problem, but we still need another striker who has good movement, decent pace and can hold up the ball (can Berahino hold the ball up?) we still need another player than can dribble directly at players and create in tight spaces (Yarmolenko?) and we need to play a commanding CB with Toby or Verts. If we could also add an experienced defensive CM that never gives up and inspires the team (Bender?) we could be excellent.

 

[Doomchicken]

I made this post in the match thread yesterday.

I think with the players we have, we don't necessarily need a tactics-oriented manager - we'd be better off with a man manager. Someone who will motivate the players, get them playing with fire, get them to show some guts...tell them to get stuck in but at the same time remind them they are good enough to let their talents show. We played great football under Redknapp because the players were confident, there was a team spirit, a belief, cohesion, etc...and they were able to play with freedom.

I don't think it's any coincidence that a manager like Arry had his best time with us - his man management style worked perfectly with players who were clearly in the upper echelons of talent for the league but just needed guidance. The same happened in the Championship with QPR, where he had the best players, he just had to encourage them - once they were in the Prem and no longer that good of a side comparatively, his style of management doesn't work, because the players need both confidence and a setup, which is why Pulis is so good with bottom 10 clubs.

With AVB/Poch, our players are conforming, not creating. They've looked lost since AVB replaced Poch. It's no coincidence that Tim, the most similar to Harry, had us playing better football than AVB/Poch, despite a totally out-of-harmony and demotivated squad.

I like Poch but I don't like him as a manager. I think it would be really interesting to take a look at someone like Sean Dyche or Alex Neil.

Dyche - definitely not. Alex Neil could be a good choice, though. His record so far is excellent, both in Scotland (his club went from the title chase to a relegation scrap after he left) and England (Norwich's form vastly improved after he took over).

 

[Strikeb4ck]

Dyche - definitely not. Alex Neil could be a good choice, though. His record so far is excellent, both in Scotland (his club went from the title chase to a relegation scrap after he left) and England (Norwich's form vastly improved after he took over).

Why not Dyche? Just asking out of curiosity, I thought he did well with Burnley and they never really had a prayer in the Prem with that squad.

 

[Doomchicken]

Why not Dyche? Just asking out of curiosity, I thought he did well with Burnley and they never really had a prayer in the Prem with that squad.

He hasn't shown enough in his career to get the job IMO.

 

[Always Offside]

No doubting Harry had his weaknesses, most managers we have ever had, had them. But you cannot deny we saw plenty of entertaining football under him and also a much tougher looking team than i've seen since.

........... Aaaand there it is ! The obligitory Harry reference.

 

[Flashspur]

We lost the game for 2 reasons. We didn't have a striker once Kane went off. Chadli or Lamela for Kane...give me an effing break. Stoke were laughing the way we eased off. No outlet for us and no danger posed to their defense. Secondly there was no one in our CM who could handle Ireland. In the end we were just not good enough. Attitude or tactics? How about both!

To go into the season without a recognized striker apart from Kane is bloody diabolical. Same old Spurs, same old crap!

 

[double0]

Having watched the ManC vs Chelski game and the formation both teams played 4231 it was interesting to observe how both teams adopted the system.

Chelski seemed to be much more ridged whereby the full back mainly stayed in a flat back 4 not going beyond the half way line whereas Manc full backs pushed forward.

What was very noticeable both teams kept there width not playing inverted wingers , which was a difference to how we play narrow with our full back pushed forward.

All the grief we give our two CM I was intrigued to see the positional play and mileage covered by the two teams, I honestly could not see any superior advantages apart from Yaya surging runs they have over ours.

The difference in applying the system concerning Manc is the front 4 work rate speed and decision making and of course the quality of Ageruo.

In Chelski case the difference is how they block defend although they conceded 3 goals and the mentality of both teams you could see the difference Manc is all about attacking Chelski closing down spaces.

 

[jurgen]

We need a leader. A player that isnt 21 and promising, but 27-29 with experience, PL experience.

Some people on here have said that is pointless because only raw footballing ability and potential matters, not the ability to lead a team or stick to a plan properly, and it would be interesting to see how our club hierarchy view such things. Would we ever buy another Parker nowadays for instance?

But I'd be more inclined to agree with Flashspurs, to have to play a CB in the middle of the park seems unfortunate, but ok, he's played it before and doesn't look unaccomplished there so far. But to have to change the shape of the team and ability to put pressure on from the front, as well as hold the ball up, through having zero strikers available to replace Kane, and to have to rely on Chadli or Lamela to try and do that job - who with the best will in the world, are simply not strikers - well that seems downright negligent. It's no surprise we hit it long as nothing would stick on the floor further forward as it would with Kane, but ironically hitting it long to Lamela and Chadli is utterly pointless. Personally I feel that even if we only had a Lambert on the bench, we wouldn't have lost territory and ultimately the game in the same fashion.

Of course this is only one game, and the first point about an experienced head able to help coordinate things on the pitch might importantly help mitigate further collapses in general..

 

[Flashspur]

Nice post. In my opinion it was down to a few things.

1) The front 4 just stopped pressing once Kane went off (if memory serves, it may have been before that). I remember a few times, we played the ball up, Chadli halfheartedly challenged the CB for the ball and then just walked back, not even a token jog. When this happens it gives the team more time on the ball, the opposition CB's can bring the ball out (like Muniesa did many times) and one of our CM's have to close them down, leaving space behind them, which a defender has to fill in, leaving space where they were etc. This allowed Ireland to cause havoc.

2) When the opposition team are having a good spell of attack (all teams will at some point in a game), you need to have a striker who can hold up the ball and a skillful player with pace in attack, which stops the opposition from committing more men forward and gives the defence an outlet. When Kane went off, we had neither.

3) Even when Stoke were having a good spell, they weren't causing us much problems in the second half, but then Lamela came on and gave away free kicks in dangerous positions, which allowed them to work on their final ball and gain confidence.

4) We had several opportunities to put the game to bed, but a lack of movement and pace coupled with a poor final ball saw that break down far to easily.

5) A stupid mistake by Alderweireld gave them a way back in, gave them a massive boost and took the wind out of our sails. Up until then, I would say we looked the more likely to score.

6) Neither of our CB's thrive on dealing with balls played into them. We need a commanding CB to partner one of the two and I think Dier could do this role eventually and from what I have heard about Wimmer (I haven't seen him play yet) he might well be the answer too. The equaliser, just seemed far too easy.

7) Poor subs. The bench didn't have many options, but with Chadli not holding the ball up or pressing, he should have gone off and we should have brought on Alli, to give us more energy in midfield and he also has decent pace and drives the ball forward, which would have been very useful. We could have then put Dembele up front (where he started his career) and although he isn't much of a goal threat, he is very good at keeping the ball.

Hopefully N'jie solves the pace problem, but we still need another striker who has good movement, decent pace and can hold up the ball (can Berahino hold the ball up?) we still need another player than can dribble directly at players and create in tight spaces (Yarmolenko?) and we need to play a commanding CB with Toby or Verts. If we could also add an experienced defensive CM that never gives up and inspires the team (Bender?) we could be excellent.

Good post. Berahino wont hold the ball up for you. He is more a style of player who likes to play off the CB and beat him for pace on through balls. An old fashioned inside forward. He can be trained to do that for sure but its not his natural game and physically he is not imposing. CF's are a dying breed, luckily we have one in Kane....for now.

 

[spurs9]

Good post. Berahino wont hold the ball up for you. He is more a style of player who likes to play off the CB and beat him for pace on through balls. An old fashioned inside forward. He can be trained to do that for sure but its not his natural game and physically he is not imposing. CF's are a dying breed, luckily we have one in Kane....for now.

Who's an alternative that can hold the ball up, has good pace and movement?

 

[Flashspur]

Who's an alternative that can hold the ball up, has good pace and movement?

A tough call but in the PL I like the work that Sakho and Pelle do for their clubs. On the continent I like Aubameyang but he is out of our league, Llorente is probably the least we can afford and would have been good support for Kane. We really should have pulled out all stops for Benteke when we could. Austin as an old fashioned CF does hold up the ball effectively but he is slow and doesn't suit our system.

There is a great upcoming generation of forwards like Embolo, David Selke, Valentin Lavigne, Sandro Ramirez, Franck Boli, Munir El Haddadi, Michael Frey etc however most of these lads are in their late teens or early 20's and need to mature. Some of these could be snapped up now as they are not with the likes of Barca like Ramirez and Haddadi. Its getting tougher and tougher to find players with the strength, will and determination to play as lone striker. There are lots of players with the skill but few with the cajones to lead the line on their own.