BAE interview in the Mirror

[Mullers]

Really, Good Pard'ner, I get accused of over analysing, but even I think you are way over reading into this.

:lol:

All he was saying was quite simply that in a gmae like football were 'feeling' is very important, they didn't 'feel' right. He then tried to explain it in terms of the subconscious (which may have been a mistake on his part, or a mistranslation, on the journos part), but I think the give away is when he says 'almost'. He is struggling for words to explain a very complex emotional situation.

There's a lot of guesswork in your reply and you seem to have deducted that 'he is struggling for words' I saw nothing in that interview that suggested this.

Football really is a job apart. It might make players pampered primadonnas...but there really is a huge difference between a sport like football, and virtually any other type of work. If you think of it like a cross between 'writer's cramp' and an artist searching for inspiration, that is what anything beyond 'goingthrough the motions' is like on the pitch. Yiou have to 'feel' right. It is the old notion that what you did in the park with your mats, you could do on the biggest stage. Well, very rarely. Look at the situation when you try somethnig flamboyant on the pitch, make an arse ofit,and everyone taks the pee. I once attempted anoverhead kick and completely miss timed it, just as one of the girls took a photo - what a twat I lloked. It certainly made me inhibited about trying it again. Imagine that 'feeling' in front of 35,000 screaming fans (especially oppos), and then add to it the stress of possibly being dropped...do you really think you could play flowing football - I don't think I could.

I don't remember BAE trying a overhead kick or anything that elaborate, he is a seasoned pro now so if the poor dear can't cope with 35,000 screaming fans or possibly being dropped omg then perhaps he should be transferred to Barnet or change his profession, I've heard Jedi's are in demand. :grin:

And, really, I don't believe Benny was saying 'we didn't like Ramos' - more like the whole general atmosphere was wrong and that affected us on the pitch. Add to that that you couldn't actually discuss things with Wandery:shrug:

“With Juande Ramos the team did not have a feeling for him so after one game, two games, three games we almost subconsciously said: ‘We do not have a feeling for you, we will not give the best for you.’

“But with Harry its different. All of the team have a good feeling for him. When you have a problem you can go and speak to him.

Seems pretty clear to me even if has put a ton of window dressing on it, the team didn't like Ramos but they like Harry.

I wonder does that mean that the team did not give their best when we beat Arsenal 5-1 in the semis of the cc? Or in the final against chelsea? If we weren't at best then just imagine the scoreline if we were!! 10-0 and 5-0 respectively.:grin:

To be honest, it sounds like you are trying to minimize what it is that 'Arry has done that has transformed the playing staff...though maybe that isn't your intention (just something subconscious:grin.

???
I have no idea how you got to that conclusion from my posts.:-|

 

[StartingPrice]

:lol:

There's a lot of guesswork in your reply and you seem to have deducted that 'he is struggling for words' I saw nothing in that interview that suggested this.

I don't remember BAE trying a overhead kick or anything that elaborate, he is a seasoned pro now so if the poor dear can't cope with 35,000 screaming fans or possibly being dropped omg then perhaps he should be transferred to Barnet or change his profession, I've heard Jedi's are in demand. :grin:




Seems pretty clear to me even if has put a ton of window dressing on it, the team didn't like Ramos but they like Harry.

I wonder does that mean that the team did not give their best when we beat Arsenal 5-1 in the semis of the cc? Or in the final against chelsea? If we weren't at best then just imagine the scoreline if we were!! 10-0 and 5-0 respectively.:grin:



???
I have no idea how you got to that conclusion from my posts.:-|

Yeah, there's a lot of guesswork in my response...but there's a lot of guesswork in your analysis, too.
He was struggling for words when he said "it is almost like we subconsciously..." that, to me, suggestes someone who is trying to explain something that isn't easy to explain. he obviously didn't mean 'it ceased to be subconsciously, because I am aware of it, so, yeah, we just decided to FCUK our season up 'cos we didn't like Wandery".

I didn't say he was trying overhead kicks...I am suggesting to you that psychological sapects can and do affect every players performance, individually, and a team's performance collectively (presumably, that is why Woy left Maescherano out, this evening "because his head wasn't right". So, a combination of factors, one of which was the psychological state of mind of the players, was causing the team to not fulfill there potential. It isn't a matter of choice, it isn't a matter of active, the fear of failure,and the uncertainty, and a whole host of other things, contirbute to the team not quite being as fluid as they could have been. And, yes, in such a psychological condition, being infront of a vociferous crowd, can be enough to distract a little.

I think he said, there wasn't the 'feeling' for Wandery that there is for 'Aitch...he even gives reasons for it. Redknapp is approachable, and affable, he explains things better, etc. If you want to interpret that as meannig they like 'Arry but didn't like Wandery, fine...from the sounds of it they certainly weren't particularly fond of his methods and persona - though whether that actually means they actively disliked the fella I really can't say.

No, it doesn't mean they didn't give their best in certain games. It is a fair point though, that they clearly did raise their game on those 'Big' occasions...but you have to accept that part of the manager's job is to motivate the players week-in, week-out, and Wandery clearly wasn't doing that. I think the vital factor, when talking about the start of THAT seaon was that Keane and Berbatov had been sold/werein the process of being sold, and the fact that no bugger could put the ball in the back of the net, on top of everything else was leading to disaster...and once the slippery slope had begun...mg:

I reached that conclusion because you seem to be saying the payers could have motivated themselves if they really wanted to, but didn't because they didn't like Wandery (wh they must, then, have lethim down); and if, therefore, the primary plus of 'Arry was that he motivated the players but they could have done that themselves, and only became motivated 'cos they like 'Arry, it is easy, from there to infer that 'Arry hasn't really done much motivating.

But, like I said, I think you are reading way too much into this, and failing to understand the delicate equilibrium that mentality has with footballers to its fullest extent.

 

[mrASH]

Benoit! He not a fan of football when he not playin!

 

[spurs_viola]

Sorry to butt in the semantics debate here, but really, isn't it all much simpler? If I may refer to my earlier post,1) most important mistake on Ramos' part was probably underestimating the differences between dealing with players in Spain and with players in Britain.
2) It seems players expected him to adjust to their ways quickly, but were not prepared to adapt their ways themselves.

Just think back to Arsenal when Wenger arrived and went about completely changing the culture and style within the club and the team. Not all of the British core were happy, with some "subconsciously" protesting against certain methods and no doubt there were some who did not have as much of the "good feeling" for Wenger as they had for Graham. But Dein made it very clear very soon that he is 100% behind Wenger, allowed him to sign the players who would fit in the new system and plans, and the players from previous regime had to either knuckle down or shut up/leave. Most of them chose to knuckle down and the club/team were all the better for that.

But at Spurs Ramos (or Jol for that matter) never had the same authority as Wenger was given by the club's Chairman, and he never was fully supported in moulding the team as he wished, with some signings that he did not wish thrust on him (Bentley, Campbell) and some important signings from his targets list not followed up strongly enough (Milito, Albelda, Arshavin).
There was not much sense in relentlessly pursuing a coach like Ramos and then not giving him the full rein and full support - which is what eventully happened.
If you want a coach who has coached only in Spain and does not yet speak much English - presumably because you admire the style of his teams' football and the system behind it and not so happy with the current style and system in your club, the logical thing would be to let him bring more players from La Liga to make the transition much easier and quicker.
But Ramos was only ultimately supported in bringing an 18-yr old Gio, whereas Wenger was able to bring Henry, Vieira, Petit, Pires, etc etc; Benitez was able to bring all those players from La Liga; Mourinho was helped to bring Carvalho, Deco, Ferreira....Notice the trend? The board has to back up what they started - otherwise it often leads to a mess of neither here nor there; which is what more or less happened with Spurs and Ramos - who in the end was much more messed up by the Spurs move than Spurs were.

 

[StuckinPoland]

Tactically, Ramos is the best manager we've had since i can remember. Sadly, his lack of English meant that the players were not interested. he couldn't be "one of the lads". And he couldn't understand what it means to be a footballer here in the UK.

People go on about Wenger being a genius. But he filled his team with people who understood his philosophy and managed to convince a bunch of old and aging defenders that they'd play longer if they adapted to his ways. Which was hardly a difficult sell me thinks. Wenger doesn't understand the British psyche. But he has mastered the language.

And I will always believe that it was that that undermined Ramos the most. Blame the players all you want. Blame the manager for some of his squad decisions. But deep down, the biggest issues with Ramos was his refusal to learn English and the players' refusal to see that he might have had a point. They'd done ok without him. Finished 5th 2 years in a row. That was good enough (for them).

I believe Ramos wanted them to see themselves as winners. But winners work hard. Winners are mentally strong. And for far too long, Tottenham have not been considered to be that. We've always been weak mentally. Talent has ebbed and flowed. But mentally we've always been weak.

The perfect manager is Ramos' tactical skills combined with Jol's humour and Redknapp's ability to create a team (something I believe Jol would have done had he not had his hands tied).

We're getting there. Slowly but surely. And whatever, it's been quite the ride!

COYS!

 

[Coyboy]

Sorry to butt in the semantics debate here, but really, isn't it all much simpler? If I may refer to my earlier post,1) most important mistake on Ramos' part was probably underestimating the differences between dealing with players in Spain and with players in Britain.
2) It seems players expected him to adjust to their ways quickly, but were not prepared to adapt their ways themselves.

Just think back to Arsenal when Wenger arrived and went about completely changing the culture and style within the club and the team. Not all of the British core were happy, with some "subconsciously" protesting against certain methods and no doubt there were some who did not have as much of the "good feeling" for Wenger as they had for Graham. But Dein made it very clear very soon that he is 100% behind Wenger, allowed him to sign the players who would fit in the new system and plans, and the players from previous regime had to either knuckle down or shut up/leave. Most of them chose to knuckle down and the club/team were all the better for that.

But at Spurs Ramos (or Jol for that matter) never had the same authority as Wenger was given by the club's Chairman, and he never was fully supported in moulding the team as he wished, with some signings that he did not wish thrust on him (Bentley, Campbell) and some important signings from his targets list not followed up strongly enough (Milito, Albelda, Arshavin).
There was not much sense in relentlessly pursuing a coach like Ramos and then not giving him the full rein and full support - which is what eventully happened.
If you want a coach who has coached only in Spain and does not yet speak much English - presumably because you admire the style of his teams' football and the system behind it and not so happy with the current style and system in your club, the logical thing would be to let him bring more players from La Liga to make the transition much easier and quicker.
But Ramos was only ultimately supported in bringing an 18-yr old Gio, whereas Wenger was able to bring Henry, Vieira, Petit, Pires, etc etc; Benitez was able to bring all those players from La Liga; Mourinho was helped to bring Carvalho, Deco, Ferreira....Notice the trend? The board has to back up what they started - otherwise it often leads to a mess of neither here nor there; which is what more or less happened with Spurs and Ramos - who in the end was much more messed up by the Spurs move than Spurs were.

In your opinion, Ramos wanted those players and didn't want the others. You do realise he always worked with a DoF?

The rest of what you say is just baseless supposition.

 

[sloth]

For my money Ramos was/is a top-class coach. some of the rewriting of history on here is laughable. That said I totally understand why he was sacked and no one can argue with our performances since.

 

[spurs_viola]

In your opinion, Ramos wanted those players and didn't want the others. You do realise he always worked with a DoF?

The rest of what you say is just baseless supposition.

Yes, he did work with a DoF and the board who were on the same wavelength as the manager most of the time. That is how they were able to replace their big players like Reyes, Baptista, Sergio Ramos, Alves, Keita, Puerta (RIP) with the players the manager wanted and how they were still able to push on to the top (I know some of those players left before Ramos).

At Spurs, after selling their best two strikers, the board left Ramos with limited Bent and Man U reserve loanee up front for the whole of the first month of the season, as well as bringing Bentley into the club when we already had Lennon there, only for Bentley to start disrupting the dressing room after he found himself on the bench for a few games.
Go on, call those facts a baseless supposition too - say Ramos really wanted to replace Berbatov and Keane with Bent and F.Campbell...:duh:

 

[Bulletspur]

...and back to BAE! Top bloke, one of the best left back in the EPL. COYS!

 

[SpurSince57]

Yes, he did work with a DoF and the board who were on the same wavelength as the manager most of the time. That is how they were able to replace their big players like Reyes, Baptista, Sergio Ramos, Alves, Keita, Puerta (RIP) with the players the manager wanted and how they were still able to push on to the top (I know some of those players left before Ramos).

At Spurs, after selling their best two strikers, the board left Ramos with limited Bent and Man U reserve loanee up front for the whole of the first month of the season, as well as bringing Bentley into the club when we already had Lennon there, only for Bentley to start disrupting the dressing room after he found himself on the bench for a few games.
Go on, call those facts a baseless supposition too - say Ramos really wanted to replace Berbatov and Keane with Bent and F.Campbell...:duh:

So it's a fact that he didn't want Bentley? And he had Gomes, Modric, Pavlyuchenko, Woodgate, Hutton, Gilberto and Corluka foisted on him too? That the club spent £84m on them without consulting Ramos at all?

Again, you're ignoring the possibility that Ramos was responsible for pushing Keane out (I'm not saying this did happen, but it would be stupid to dismiss it given Ramos' previous form). You also ignore the fact that we were pretty crap with Keane and Berbatov. We were in for Pavlyuchenko early in the window, Arshavin too, and, apparently, Podolski as well (God help us). From the evidence available, it appears that Milito was a fall-back should we fail to sign Pavlyuchenko, so Ramos wasn't 'let down' with him either. Are you seriously saying we didn't press hard enough for Arshavin? And apparently Ramos personally approached Albelda while the squad was in Spain and was turned down.

And you accuse others of rewriting history… :rofl:

 

[Coyboy]

Yes, he did work with a DoF and the board who were on the same wavelength as the manager most of the time. That is how they were able to replace their big players like Reyes, Baptista, Sergio Ramos, Alves, Keita, Puerta (RIP) with the players the manager wanted and how they were still able to push on to the top (I know some of those players left before Ramos).

At Spurs, after selling their best two strikers, the board left Ramos with limited Bent and Man U reserve loanee up front for the whole of the first month of the season, as well as bringing Bentley into the club when we already had Lennon there, only for Bentley to start disrupting the dressing room after he found himself on the bench for a few games.
Go on, call those facts a baseless supposition too - say Ramos really wanted to replace Berbatov and Keane with Bent and F.Campbell...:duh:

What SS57 says basically.

It's baseless supposition to say Ramos didn't want these players and wanted others. Pure guesswork. If you think it, fine but prefix it with 'IMO' otherwise it just looks like you are using established facts to exonerate Ramos for huge failures that were already starting to grow pre summer.

On topic, this all comes down to something BAE said-perhaps through a translator-, his personal views which are pretty vague and ambiguous. Yet you try to use them as iron clad proof. We get it, you rated Ramos and you try very hard to use any snippets of information to mitigate his failures and make out he was ass fucked by the players and board. We get it. Move on. We have done well without him and he is in sunnier climates.

Ramos is history. Spurs is now.

 

[StartingPrice]

What SS57 says basically.

It's baseless supposition to say Ramos didn't want these players and wanted others. Pure guesswork. If you think it, fine but prefix it with 'IMO' otherwise it just looks like you are using established facts to exonerate Ramos for huge failures that were already starting to grow pre summer.

On topic, this all comes down to something BAE said-perhaps through a translator-, his personal views which are pretty vague and ambiguous. Yet you try to use them as iron clad proof. We get it, you rated Ramos and you try very hard to use any snippets of information to mitigate his failures and make out he was ass fucked by the players and board. We get it. Move on. We have done well without him and he is in sunnier climates.

Ramos is history. Spurs is now.

:clap: +1

And may I just add. SV: I really wanted Ramos to work at the Lane (why shouldn't I do so), and still stick up for certian aspects of Damien Comolli's tenure (the fact that he got us some damned amazing players, basically), but the fatc remains that as a team, and that team included Dan Levy (let's not airbrush that out of history), mistakes were made. And, to be blunt, Ramos, like Benitez (on a different level), just never managed to reconcile himself to certian aspects of English footballing life/culture.

Up to the last minute I was desperately hoping it would work out (and why wouldn't I), and, as I said, I will stick upfor certain aspects of the regime's tenure. But there are others for which I cannot do this. And, this is the most important point, it is all history now - we have a manager who is taking us places, and a chairman who has learned from his mistakes.

Further, as I have expained in detail to Mullers, above, I feel that far, far to much is being read into an honest, refelxive and, maybe, poorly expressed/translated statement made by BAE long after the event where he is trying to explain something pretty intangible. I really doubt there was any conspiracy, or concerted effort to lose Wandery Ramos his job...I just do not believe.

 

[Mullers]

Yeah, there's a lot of guesswork in my response...but there's a lot of guesswork in your analysis, too.
He was struggling for words when he said "it is almost like we subconsciously..." that, to me, suggestes someone who is trying to explain something that isn't easy to explain. he obviously didn't mean 'it ceased to be subconsciously, because I am aware of it, so, yeah, we just decided to FCUK our season up 'cos we didn't like Wandery".

We're going to haven to agree to disagree then because I see it as him saying that he feels more motivated under Harry than Ramos because the team like him better than Ramos, subconsciously inserted because he doesn't want to say it outright.

I didn't say he was trying overhead kicks...I am suggesting to you that psychological sapects can and do affect every players performance, individually, and a team's performance collectively (presumably, that is why Woy left Maescherano out, this evening "because his head wasn't right". So, a combination of factors, one of which was the psychological state of mind of the players, was causing the team to not fulfill there potential. It isn't a matter of choice, it isn't a matter of active, the fear of failure,and the uncertainty, and a whole host of other things, contirbute to the team not quite being as fluid as they could have been. And, yes, in such a psychological condition, being infront of a vociferous crowd, can be enough to distract a little.

I know the psychological aspects can affect a teams performance, I'm just saying that job security means they don't have the worry of being sacked if they don't play well.

I think he said, there wasn't the 'feeling' for Wandery that there is for 'Aitch...he even gives reasons for it. Redknapp is approachable, and affable, he explains things better, etc. If you want to interpret that as meannig they like 'Arry but didn't like Wandery, fine...from the sounds of it they certainly weren't particularly fond of his methods and persona - though whether that actually means they actively disliked the fella I really can't say.

Not fond of his persona, surely means they didn't like his personality, thus did not like him.

No, it doesn't mean they didn't give their best in certain games. It is a fair point though, that they clearly did raise their game on those 'Big' occasions...but you have to accept that part of the manager's job is to motivate the players week-in, week-out, and Wandery clearly wasn't doing that. I think the vital factor, when talking about the start of THAT seaon was that Keane and Berbatov had been sold/werein the process of being sold, and the fact that no bugger could put the ball in the back of the net, on top of everything else was leading to disaster...and once the slippery slope had begun...mg:

I've already said that management and players were responsible for the bad form although from the start I never though Ramos would succeed.

I reached that conclusion because you seem to be saying the payers could have motivated themselves if they really wanted to, but didn't because they didn't like Wandery (wh they must, then, have lethim down); and if, therefore, the primary plus of 'Arry was that he motivated the players but they could have done that themselves, and only became motivated 'cos they like 'Arry, it is easy, from there to infer that 'Arry hasn't really done much motivating.

Well then you reached the wrong conclusion Harry clearly has done a lot of motivating and he brought staff in that could also help motivate the players. The phrase 'two points from eight games' will be in my head probably forever.

I do think the players let Ramos down and let themselves down one of the points they got was the one all against Chelsea so they showed they could raise their game.

But, like I said, I think you are reading way too much into this, and failing to understand the delicate equilibrium that mentality has with footballers to its fullest extent.

Again I think we have to agree to disagree, I just call it as I see it and what I see is responsibility being shifted what I'm not saying however is that players fucked up their season to get Ramos sacked.

 

[StartingPrice]

Then it's agreed - we disagree:grin: