Berbs & Carrick

[kicked]

There has been a lot said on here, some i agree with and some i don't.
Some people seem to know everything that went on in personal transfer deals because of what someone has said! As Jeremy Kyle would say...'it seems always about what something someone else said'!
The only thing that is sure about Carrick and Berbatov is that they left!

The problem that Spurs have had is that there are too many cooks! Levy, Commoli and the coach of the time all dealing with the transfers. 3 different ideas on players. Not only that, there were execs like Kelmsley. How much influence did he have????
I still believe that DOF can work in a football enviroment even though it didn't at Spurs.

I like Zokora, i like Pav...no they are not Carrick or Berba but Carrick and Berba weren't like Hoddle or Gazza or Ginola or Lineker etc etc. All players are different. Pav is scoring goals. Give him the ball in the box and he'll do a job.

We just need to roll up our sleeves and start to fight for each other. Look at Tevez...he was running at our players endlessly! If we had a player with that determination..(yeah, SAF would end up signing him! :wink: )!!

This team needs to sort out some good wins and settle together as a team. Yes, get rid of whoever doesn't want to play for us...regardless of who they are! Put some fight back in the players.

 

[Bobishism]

hi guys, gareth barry here, just letting you all know what can happen if you hold onto your best players.

 

[hybridsoldier]

*sigh* I already said Barry doesn't count because the big sides had other priorities and didnt think he was worth that price.

Villa didnt "hang on" to Barry, Rafa felt Lpool needed a striker more (very true), United are fine in the CM, same with Chelski, Wenger preferred Alonso and is probably the wisest manager out there and felt it didnt warrant £18mill.

Better believe Barry wanted to go.....just the clubs didnt see him as important enough and worth that money, also to an extent Rafa was blocked by the board.

Villa did nothing special and Barry will still leave eventually when Villa finish 5th like the ungrateful prat he is.

 

[Bobishism]

Well i already ignored what you said.
Barry publicly said he wanted to leave, far more than Berbatov or Carrick.

 

[GLUESODA]

1 - Zokora not Zakora
2 - Zokora & Pavlyuchenko cost around £20m, not £24 as suggested
3 - Zokora was bought over 2 years before Pavlyuchenko, so how can it be considered the same cash?
4 - Zokora mis-spelled again
5 - Zokora was bought BEFORE Carrick left, he was bought to play with Carrick
6 - Comolli didn't fuck us up, far from it. He made a couple of poor decisions, but most of his work helped raise our profile and he did wonders for our academy/future.. Every player he bought either had potential or was a proven player in our league. Berbatov was his signing it was a gamble that paid off. Boateng was his signing, it was a gamble that may yet may off.
7 - Mis-spelled Zokora again
8 - Zokora wasn't a midnight special, he was purchased immediately after te World Cup in 2006
9 - There is no other forward in the world like Berbatov, that's why United paid £32.5m for him. Having a pop because the powers that be bought a striker for £14m who has racked up 12 goals already because he isn't a carbon copy of the guy worth in excess of double the amount is madness.
10 - Palacios is nothing like Carrick, he's more like Diarra

1 - ok thanks
2 - Have heard from a few that it was 8m euros for zokora not pounds, so fair enough
3 - well how do you get to 48m? Didn't you add carrick and berbatov's transfer fees? Is that not what the threads about in the first place? Who were their direct replacements then huh???
4 - correct
5 - correct, he was bought before, maybe even before the world cup, but Carrick was tapped up well before, it didn't just happen over night. My main point here was that on the field he was a direct replacement, why on earth would Jol have played zakora, opps sorry Zokora and Carrick when he already had a fantastic partnership with Jenas?
6 - Fair enough, Jol used to go on about Berbatov being he's signing, but I'm sure comolli had a lot to do with it. Its also not like Berbatov was an unknow player then, but as you say was still a gamble and his finest hour. My dislike for the man is that he did not replace Carrick or Berbatov, got rid of Jol, and brought in a number of players not suited to spurs or the EPL.
7 - ok
8 - correct, he was not bought over the last transfer evening, it meant that he is basically rubbish. My opinion which I know you disagree with, but I can't hold back how much I dislike his general play ( oh and nice spelling of "the")
9 - Berbatov was £30,75m, and exactly as I said, they are not alike at all. I really lik Pav, and think he would have been great with Berbatov, but we didn't replace berbatov with a similar type of forward. Harry is trying now to correct this by trying to get players like Jones, Cole, Heskey etc.
Its impossible to just "like for like" replace Berbatov as he is a rare genius, but Comolli had ages to get someone at least similar, knowing he wanted to leave. If you think Pav is a similar player to berbatov, or any other No. 10 in nature, obviously not as good which as you say is unrealistic, well then fair enough, I don't.

10 - Palacios and Carrick play in the centre of midfield right? Well then how the hell could Palacios not be our best Mid since Carrick?? Even if he is more like Diarra, you can't honestly tell me that Jenas was the holding midfielder and not Carrick? I never once said they exactly the same type of player

Kendall/ Billie - I know my spelling is poor, but pls don't qustion my knowledge and passion for spurs - I don't profess to know it all, but I'm no flash in the pan supporter and I am always willing to read what you say and actually enjoy Your opinions most of the time

 

[ShelfSide18]

Apologies if I duplicate what another post has said, I haven't had time to read through every post and my Uni essay deadline is fast approaching. (still enough time for a bit of SC though!

I was thinking on the train yesterday back from Old trafford, did we HAVE to let those players go? Just watching Carrick and Berbatov rip us to shreds in one moment of pure magic tore through my Spurs heart, all I could think was that they were our players who contributed to the most successful spell in my lifetime supporting Spurs. It was a truly gutting moment.

So did we have to get rid of them? At first I went along with most and kept in line with the 'if they don't want to play for us/if their head is turned' train of thought. But yesterday I thought 'what if Levy had just said...er... no? They would have still been Spurs players and playing for us.

It is true that Levy struck 2 fantastic deals with Utd for those 2, and Keano who I include in this debate but only in a financial sense. Those 3 players are pretty much priceless and our team has only suffered from losing them. Levy truly knows the 'price of everything but the value of nothing' to bring Oscar Wilde into this debate. There is no doubting Levy's financial and commercial nous but businessmen like him would believe that all commodities are replaceable and that losing them, and making a fair buck out of it was just a continuation of the conveyor belt of personnel like we see in the business world. Almost 70 million quid out of 3 personnel is good business right? Yes, in a financial sense but the impact on the team these decisions have made can only be described as an unmitigated disaster.

So what if we had said no? Not at any price. Would they all have sulked, refused to play or played badly to seek a move elsewhere? I don't think so, these guys play football and love what they do. They may have sulked for a while, said things to the media, got stick from the fans but they are footballers, and the bottom line is that they want to play. Look at Gareth Barry for example. We in turn can offer them the Premiership, European football and with them on board a good chance of improving further and moving on to the 'next level'. With them we had a club with massive potential, it's not like we were in the championship or anything. We soon could be.

Maybe I'm being an idealistic dreamer here but I'm pretty sure they all had a respect for this club, the fans who pay their money and their own careers. If we had said no I'm pretty sure after an initial sulk they would have continued playing for us in the same vein as before, Keano and Carrick especially. They are supposed to be professionals after all.

The more I think about it I wish Levy had set a precedent, no we won't bow down to the top clubs, we won't act as a stepping stone, a glorified scouting network to see if your potential purchases can cut it in the Premiership.

It's just depressing to think that we really could have had a team like this, with countless other options to draw from...

Gomes/Robbo(05/06)
Corluka King Woodgate YPLee
Carrick
Jenas----Modric
Lennon------------------
--------------Keano
Berbatov​

Another point. It now is clear that the decision to let go of Steed, Tainio and YPLee was absolutely criminal.

 

[hybridsoldier]

Well i already ignored what you said.
Barry publicly said he wanted to leave, far more than Berbatov or Carrick.

you don't know what happened behind the scenes, don't recall Barry ever not being played/refusing to play

Barry only stayed because the Rafa/owners conflict and Wenger didnt rate him. Its a entirely seperate situation - Villa pretty much lucked out! Had anyone met the £18mill valuation, he was long gone, so you cant say Villa "kept him" - they were ready to sell and got lucky the Yanks didnt back Rafa.

If the Glazers had not backed Fergie....we would have kept them. If Rafa hadn't prioritised Keane over Barry we wulda kept him too!

this is why the case of Gareth Barry doesn't belong in this thread, cheers.

 

[Russell]

Barry only stayed because the Rafa/owners conflict and Wenger didnt rate him. Its a entirely seperate situation - Villa pretty much lucked out! Had anyone met the £18mill valuation, he was long gone, so you cant say Villa "kept him" - they were ready to sell and got lucky the Yanks didnt back Rafa.

My recollection of the Barry saga was that Villa gave L'pool a deadline to meet the valuation. When they didn't meet the valuation by the deadline, which was several weeks before the end of the transfer window, Villa said they were not going to accept any offers for the player. The transfer speculation then began to die away. Perhaps Villa did luck out to an extent, but they also kept some control of the situation and did not leave themselves still negotiating on transfer deadline night so ending up with no Barry and no proper replacement either.

 

[ShelfSide18]

you don't know what happened behind the scenes, don't recall Barry ever not being played/refusing to play

Barry only stayed because the Rafa/owners conflict and Wenger didnt rate him. Its a entirely seperate situation - Villa pretty much lucked out! Had anyone met the £18mill valuation, he was long gone, so you cant say Villa "kept him" - they were ready to sell and got lucky the Yanks didnt back Rafa.

If the Glazers had not backed Fergie....we would have kept them. If Rafa hadn't prioritised Keane over Barry we wulda kept him too!

this is why the case of Gareth Barry doesn't belong in this thread, cheers.

With respect I think it does. Barry wanted to leave, and would have left. Villa would have done the same as us, but...

He stayed, against his will, was booed but has continued to play well and be committed for Villa. I believe Keane, Carrick and Berbatov would have done the same.

You are right though, that Villa lucked out but to me it only goes to show how we could have just said no. A few weeks sulking later we would have still have had an excellent team.

I appreciate your points.

 

[Petyr]

Barry didn't leave only because Liverpool were reluctant to pay what it takes. If Man U were reluctant to pay Berbatov would still be here.

Levy's big mistake is that he didn't sell Berbatov after the end of the season but tried to keep him against his will by refusing to hold reasonable negotiations with Man U and trying to break the relations with them by making offending comments. His late transfer is one of the major reasons why Spurs are in a relegation battle now. It would be much better if Levy took 25m in May and secured a replacement before the start of the pre-season. The Berbatov to Man U saga reflected very badly on the team morale.

 

[spurious1]

We can't hang on to players like that unless we challenge for top honors.

We can't challenge for top honours unless we have players like that.

Guess that's why the "Big Sky 4" is set in stone.

 

[StartingPrice]

Had Levy not got rid of Carrick, backed BMJ and bought Berbs mate Petrov, Berbatov could well have stayed.....especially as we'd have most definitely been playing CL with Berbs/Carrick playing together

Who knows, but I wish Levy had backed his manager, Carrick was unquestionably Jol's man and he sold him because according to the great footballing brain that is Mr Levy it was a great bit of business.

Sadly, most of this is totally correct

The only bit I'm not sure about ('not sure about', not, 'contradicting you over', or 'calling you a liar about'), is that, as I remember it, when they came in for carrick a second time, Carrick said: "boss I'd like to go" (to BMJ). BMJ was very clear that he couldn't have a tantrum (ala The BULGAR), and that he trained on as a consummate pro., but he did state to club officials that he wanted the move...so the question about MC is the same as about any other player: Should clubs try to hold on to players who have stated they want to leave no matter what the price, or should they get the best deal possible for themselves?

 

[Kendall]

Every club wants to get the best deal to compensate the player going. people harp on about Villa keeping Barry. They put a price on his head, Liverpool didn't match it.