Cerny vs Robinson

[Michey]

I am a fan of the Robinson of old and I do respect what he did for us when he arrived, however I don't think there can be much argument for him not to be dropped from the team at present.

Defensively we are awful. Although you defend from the front, the onus of responsibility is primarily the centre backs and the goalkeeper. The centre backs instill confidence in the keeper and vice versa. We have conceded far too many goals and it all points to a huge communication/confidence problem at the back.

Ramos is concerned with the defence which has been highly publicised. It is rumoured that Chimbonda, Dawson, Gardner, Kaboul, Stalteri, Rocha and Lee are being offed, which effectively replaces our back line bar Ledley and Bale. If you are honest, for a club who have so called Champions League aspirations, this is probably the right call.

We have already conceded 38 goals in the league. We conceded 54 goals in the league last season. This is in comparison to 38 in 05/06. Surely we should be improving on 05/06 - we didn't. Not to mention that over the last couple of seasons Robinsons decision making has been awful - coupled with our awful record of conceding from set plays means that we will never challenge for top 4.

Robinson is and always will be a good shot stopper (albeit seems to concede from distance far too regularly), but it is evident that he is hesitant at coming out and taking crosses, catching the ball and controlling his penalty area.

Cerny is certainly good backup, but is not going to replace Robbo. It certainly looks as if Robbo will be replaced in the summer but not before.

I don't know whether it is confidence, poor coaching (Hans Segers?), or bad luck, but you cannot afford to leave a keeper with low confidence to continue playing in the hope that he will come out of it - we will drop too many points.

Put Robbo in the reserves away from the attention and let him concentrate on recapturing the form from a couple of seasons back.

Very good post and very true :up:

 

[Dannyspur]

What a load of bollocks, football is virtually non contact with regards to keepers, you only need to sneeze near a keeper these days for the ref to blow for a freekick.

Add to the fact that keepers used to play on appalling pitches with irregular bounce and you've also forgot to remember that the size of the goal hasn't changed, but people including keepers are very much bigger than in yesteryear, ie easier to save pens when your 6ft 4 rather than 5ft 10.

There is not a keeper around today worthy of cleaning Shilton, Banks or Jennings boots.

I don't know how to put this tactfully - you are talking bollocks!

Which Keepers today are better than the likes of Jennings, Shilton, Banks or Clemence? or even Bailey, Corrigan, Southgate, etc etc

Try to watch some old matches and see how they caught corners, crosses and shots. And thats when the attackers were able to challenge them too. And the ball weighed the same as a ten pin bowling ball!

sure there were some duffers back in the days (sprake springs to mind!) but I'd take any one of those mentioned above over most premiership keepers today.

Great minds think alike! - you posted ours in the time it took for me to write mine.

 

[Juande_Ramos]

I don't know how to put this tactfully - you are talking bollocks!

Which Keepers today are better than the likes of Jennings, Shilton, Banks or Clemence? or even Bailey, Corrigan, Southgate, etc etc

Try to watch some old matches and see how they caught corners, crosses and shots. And thats when the attackers were able to challenge them too. And the ball weighed the same as a ten pin bowling ball!

sure there were some duffers back in the days (sprake springs to mind!) but I'd take any one of those mentioned above over most premiership keepers today.

You are talking to someone who has a videotheque or more than 500 old games from all eras and watch regularly games from the past. I think you should apply that recommendation to yourself, cause you are very likely talking from memory and impressions you got from your youth years, thing that, believe me, tends to distort reality a lot, and I am talking from my own experience.
Today's goalkeepers are not only bigger but far more agile than they were in the past, and they have to play under conditions that make their job far more difficult. The only advantage goalkeepers have nowadays is that if they get to a shot that they can only parry but not catch, it is easier to keep it out of the goal, especially under rainy conditions because of the wieght of the ball and its material.
In general players are today far better athletes, but goalkeepers in particular the improvement has been massive.

 

[thetallaghttiger]

Cerny deserves a run I guess, Robinson has had a fair few poor games this season so why not give Cerny his chance.

If we're looking for a goalkeeper though, I really do think we should make a move for Shay Given. A top class keeper who rarely makes mistakes and has the ability to we games on his own. We'd be offering him a way out a poor club and a move to a team who are on the up/advanced in a few cup competitions could possibly be enough to convince him to sign.

 

[Spursking]

Cerny deserves more chances. Robinson has done many errors, and it is always competition for places.

 

[Dannyspur]

You are talking to someone who has a videotheque or more than 500 old games from all eras and watch regularly games from the past. I think you should apply that recommendation to yourself, cause you are very likely talking from memory and impressions you got from your youth years, thing that, believe me, tends to distort reality a lot, and I am talking from my own experience.
Today's goalkeepers are not only bigger but far more agile than they were in the past, and they have to play under conditions that make their job far more difficult. The only advantage goalkeepers have nowadays is that if they get to a shot that they can only parry but not catch, it is easier to keep it out of the goal, especially under rainy conditions because of the wieght of the ball and its material.
In general players are today far better athletes, but goalkeepers in particular the improvement has been massive.

I played in goal for about 25 years so my memories are based on watching keepers a lot. But now I'm 50, I suppose the sketchy black and white images in my senile old mind may have a slightly rose coloured tint to them.
I have to take issue with your conditions statement above, pitches weren't the bowling greens that they are today. they were mud or sand for most of the season! Also goalkeeping was all about catching, punching the ball away was a 'continental' thing that has become more prevelant because todays keepers cant catch.:wink:
The keepers are bigger today but some of them (robbo included) look musclebound, I think they are less agile. Too much emphasis is put on physical strength. That's the same for skillful players - was George Best a huge muscleman? no but he could twist and turn defenders inside out. It is the same with goalies (oops 50-year-old speak) the reason robbo doesn't get to some of the long shots is that he hasn't got quick enough feet. it takes him too long to get his muscley?? legs moving.

 

[tippspur59]

I think cerny deserves a good run in the side,ffs he can't do any worse than robbo was.

 

[SpurSince57]

You are talking to someone who has a videotheque or more than 500 old games from all eras and watch regularly games from the past. I think you should apply that recommendation to yourself, cause you are very likely talking from memory and impressions you got from your youth years, thing that, believe me, tends to distort reality a lot, and I am talking from my own experience.
Today's goalkeepers are not only bigger but far more agile than they were in the past, and they have to play under conditions that make their job far more difficult. The only advantage goalkeepers have nowadays is that if they get to a shot that they can only parry but not catch, it is easier to keep it out of the goal, especially under rainy conditions because of the wieght of the ball and its material.
In general players are today far better athletes, but goalkeepers in particular the improvement has been massive.

You are always going to get this argument, no matter what the sport: how would Nuvolari compare with Fangio? Or Fangio with Schumacher? Federer v. Borg? Ali v. Marciano? Ali v. Lewis? Etc., etc.

If you put the Spurs Double-winning side up against today's team (or the Real of di Stefano up against today's Real) there would only be one result. So much has moved on, from pitches, balls, kit, tactics, fitness and stamina, and sheer size. When I was a kid 'Big Maurice' Norman absolutely towered over most other players (you can see that in the old team photos) yet he was, I think, only just over 6' 0". Robbie Keane is regarded as a shortarse, yet would have been one of the tallest players in the Double Team.

I don't know. There are far fewer goals scored nowadays, but I think that's far more to do with the increasing emphasis on defence and the increasing sophistication of defensive tactics than the improvement in goalkeeping per se. And as Dannispur says, goalies now receive so much more protection. The first Cup Final I ever saw was Bolton v. United in 1958, when Nat Lofthouse famously and controversially shoulder-charged Harry Gregg over the line, complete with ball. As for the pitches…*On the Double Year extras DVD there is an interview with Danny Blanchflower which takes place on what at first appears to be a cow-pasture after several days of heavy rain. You then realise it's the pitch at The Valley. And that was nothing exceptional in the 50s and 60s. Sorry, JR, but how you can say conditions today are more difficult is beyond me, unless you mean something diifferent. As for the balls, on a cold wet day, if you got hit you stayed hit, even at schoolboy level. If you punched one and didn't get it exactly right you could quite literally end up with a broken finger or two, so you tended to catch whenever possible.

I'm really not sure at all the best keepers today are any better, or even as good, as those of the past. I mean, this guy for one would surely more than hack it in the modern game.

[yt]3Vz5d2BY_-Q[/yt]

 

[TopSpurMan]

i've been calling for robbo to be dropped for some time - he is having an off season and we have not got points to waste to let him 'build' his confidence.

next one is jenas unless learns to play football, like pass forward every now and again preferably to a white shirt

 

[TommyW]

Any coincidence that King looks back to his best?

Or that the central midfield pairing could actually communicate?

No no, Cerny's great.

King and Dawson played against Reading, and Robbo still managed to topple backwards into his own net...

 

[Stoof]

King and Dawson played against Reading, and Robbo still managed to topple backwards into his own net...

Don't let us get started with this again - it wasn't a goal. King was on his arse when Hunt followed up. Please, please give me better [actual] reasons.

 

[SpurSince57]

King and Dawson played against Reading, and Robbo still managed to topple backwards into his own net...

No, he stepped backwards over the line in accordance with the laws of physics. Perhaps Rocha should have been able to stop himself dead rather than collide with Robbo and bundle him into the net for Everton's second?

He also managed to hold on to the ball having correctly caught it, and it is highly debatable that the whole ball crossed the line in any case. Never mind, let's slag him off anyway.

 

[Michey]

It's quite laughable/awkward to see people refuse to acknowledge what actually happens.

 

[Juande_Ramos]

I played in goal for about 25 years so my memories are based on watching keepers a lot. But now I'm 50, I suppose the sketchy black and white images in my senile old mind may have a slightly rose coloured tint to them.
I have to take issue with your conditions statement above, pitches weren't the bowling greens that they are today. they were mud or sand for most of the season! Also goalkeeping was all about catching, punching the ball away was a 'continental' thing that has become more prevelant because todays keepers cant catch.:wink:
The keepers are bigger today but some of them (robbo included) look musclebound, I think they are less agile. Too much emphasis is put on physical strength. That's the same for skillful players - was George Best a huge muscleman? no but he could twist and turn defenders inside out. It is the same with goalies (oops 50-year-old speak) the reason robbo doesn't get to some of the long shots is that he hasn't got quick enough feet. it takes him too long to get his muscley?? legs moving.

Well, Robinson is not what you could call an agile goalkeeper in todays game. There are better examples of agile keepers around.
As pictures speak more than words I have uploaded the long highlights of the game Manchester United Spurs of 1964 that appeared in MOTD. There you can see a young Pat Jennings defending Spurs goal, and George Best among others.
And I know they were great players in their time, and it is of not much use to compare them with good players of today because the conditions have completely changed, sometimes for good and sometimes for worse. The only thing we can say with certainty is that player X of old was better than player Y of today relatively to the time were they played. Using that reasoning Pat Jennings was certainly a better goalkeeper than Robinson cause his status in the game was better than Robinson status is today.

You can view the game online (good quality) or downlod it here:

http://www.stage6.com/user/Juande_Ramos/video/2056260/Man-United-Spurs-1964

If you can't watch it you need to download the codecs here:

http://www.divx.com/divx/windows/download/index.php

And finally, it is nothing to do with senility, I hope, cause I am not that far from your age :grin:. I had fond memories of certain players or games I watched when I was younger and on second view very few stand the past of time.
The old "in my time it was better" it has much to do with natural selective memory (we tend to remember only the good bits) and with the emotions of a young brain attached to those events.

Ps, Jennings did punch too :razz:

 

[SpurSince57]

It's quite laughable/awkward to see people refuse to acknowledge what actually happens.

Isn't it just?

 

[SpurSince57]

Well, Robinson is not what you could call an agile goalkeeper in todays game. There are better examples of agile keepers around.
As pictures speak more than words I have uploaded the long highlights of the game Manchester United Spurs of 1964 that appeared in MOTD. There you can see a young Pat Jennings defending Spurs goal, and George Best among others.
And I know they were great players in their time, and it is of not much use to compare them with good players of today because the conditions have completely changed, sometimes for good and sometimes for worse. The only thing we can say with certainty is that player X of old was better than player Y of today relatively to the time were they played. Using that reasoning Pat Jennings was certainly a better goalkeeper than Robinson cause his status in the game was better than Robinson status is today.

You can view the game online (good quality) or downlod it here:

http://www.stage6.com/user/Juande_Ramos/video/2056260/Man-United-Spurs-1964

If you can't watch it you need to download the codecs here:

http://www.divx.com/divx/windows/download/index.php

And finally, it is nothing to do with senility, I hope, cause I am not that far from your age :grin:. I had fond memories of certain players or games I watched when I was younger and on second view very few stand the past of time.
The old "in my time it was better" it has much to do with natural selective memory (we tend to remember only the good bits) and with the emotions of a young brain attached to those events.

Ps, Jennings did punch too :razz:

When the late Freddie Trueman was on the BBC's Test Match commentary team he prefaced what seemed like 90% of his comments with: 'In my day…' or words to that effect. It was fantastically irritating.

 

[PT]

I remember Robbo before the last World Cup Finals suggesting that the lighter ball that was to be used for the first time in the tourny was causing problems for keepers who had to guestimate the swing and bend.

Now if the very latest modern ball is still causing Robbo that sort of problem it would confirm the cause of our long range conceding problem.

It then gives rise to psychological issues that Robbo mught have walking on the park knowing that at some point he'll have to deal with a long hopeful punt in his direction.

 

[TommyW]

Don't let us get started with this again - it wasn't a goal. King was on his arse when Hunt followed up. Please, please give me better [actual] reasons.

A lot of people at the game said it was over the line, and I'll take their opinions over inconclusive video evidence! Goal or not, it was one hell of a cockup anyway! It was a routine catch and he made a complete hash of it. Cerny is a far better keeper on current form - I think any goalkeeper in the Prem would be. Robbo was a great keeper 2-3 years ago, but he's not the same player anymore. He's a nervous wreck

I honestly don't understand how people can continue to defend his performances! I'm sure he's a nice bloke, but that's not a good enough reason to pick him whilst he's making blunder after blunder. We'll be condemned to mediocrity forever if we accept these kinda shoddy performances from a goalkeeper (or any player for that matter!)

 

[SpurSince57]

A lot of people at the game said it was over the line, and I'll take their opinions over inconclusive video evidence! Goal or not, it was one hell of a cockup anyway! It was a routine catch and he made a complete hash of it. Cerny is a far better keeper on current form - I think any goalkeeper in the Prem would be. Robbo was a great keeper 2-3 years ago, but he's not the same player anymore. He's a nervous wreck

I honestly don't understand how people can continue to defend his performances! I'm sure he's a nice bloke, but that's not a good enough reason to pick him whilst he's making blunder after blunder. We'll be condemned to mediocrity forever if we accept these kinda shoddy performances from a goalkeeper (or any player for that matter!)

Unless they were in the front two or three rows of the East or West Stand and absolutely in line (and preferably without a goalpost in their way) I don't see how anyone could tell whether the ball was completely over the line. This has been gone over again and again. And I just love the way some people come out with 'routine catch' or 'routine tip over the bar'. He caught the ball. How is that making a hash of it? That would have been dropping it into his own net. And you cannot stop momentum just like that. Try it sometime.

 

[TommyW]

Unless they were in the front two or three rows of the East or West Stand and absolutely in line (and preferably without a goalpost in their way) I don't see how anyone could tell whether the ball was completely over the line. This has been gone over again and again. And I just love the way some people come out with 'routine catch' or 'routine tip over the bar'. He caught the ball. How is that making a hash of it? That would have been dropping it into his own net. And you cannot stop momentum just like that. Try it sometime.

Catching the ball isn't making a hash of it.....walking over the line with it is. If he didn't think he could take it safely he should have punched it instead. My opinion on Robbo isn't based entirely on the game against Reading anyway. I've wanted him out the team the last 6 months His peformances breed fear in our defenders, and they've got fragile enough confidence as it is!