Comollis' signings.

[joey55]

Personally I've always thought it a little more blurred than that. lets take Zokora for example. A regular international for - at the time - Africas most exciting nation The Ivory Coast. So had had plenty of TV coverage playing in the ACN, then appeared at the World Cup - which Jol attended and commented on for TV I think. Add in that French league games are fairly easily accessable. Could Jol really have had no idea exactly what he was getting with Zokora ?

Transversly, take Bent. Of course, as your list shows, Jol must have known and sanctioned this purchase, maybe even requested it ?
But as DOF I've always held Camolli very responsible for this massive waste of money on such a limited player as even if Jol demaded him, at 16m Comolli should have known better and realised that as DOF he would have to sign off on such a huge mistake.

When I look at that list I can pretty much understand why a club like ours, in our position, made most of them.

You yourself have argued with me that young players often mature after 20-22+. I think in tandem with those easy purchases (ie the Berbatovs, Modric's, Gomes's and Woodgate's) we have run a policy of trying to find an uncut diomond here and there.

If we consider that Devitte and Kaboul were France under 18 and 21 captains respectively we can easily understand this kind of purchase.
I still don't think we should have binned Kaboul quite so quickly.

There actually aren't too many complete turkeys on that list when taken from the viewpoint of the logic at the time not the all knowing hindsight.

The ANC happens during league time for Europe and there is a big difference between watchinga tournamnet on TV and scouting a particular player. Though we officially signed him after the WC, Zokora had said he knew he was coming when we played West Ham. Also, Jol mentioned Zokora (and BAE) by name at the Q&A and it was clearly Zokora, Jol was talking about the other day when he spoke of the French based players we was told were better than Carrick.

Also, it's unlikley Jol would have demanded Bent and got him. That summer, they were clearly already planning to get rid of Jol. Jol said the other day, in his newspaper interview, that he knew Comolli wanted Ramos that summer. There was also itk that said it at the time and then 2 games into the season the club are caught in Sevilla. You don't go to Sevilla and speak to another coach on a whim, after losing 2 games. They'd clearly been thinking of changing coach for a while. So it's unlikely they'd have been that keen to spend £16 million on a player that a coach they want out is "demanding." Levy isn't stupid.

But ultimately the point is that in our system the coach is responsible for coaching. He isn't the manager. A manager like Ferguson or Wenger wouldn't often sign a player with limited knowledge, be it from TV or just seeing them live once. Not only would they want to know the player, but they'd also employ the scouts. In our system, it's the D of F who is responsible for the scouting network. So our coach often has to rely on the opinion of the D of F.

 

[Banjo]

:shrug:

Discussion seems a bit too narrowly focused on players bought. The squad composition, and blame/credit for it, is also related to players sold, brought on and - I feel especially - missed.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The ANC happens during league time for Europe and there is a big difference between watchinga tournamnet on TV and scouting a particular player. Though we officially signed him after the WC, Zokora had said he knew he was coming when we played West Ham. Also, Jol mentioned Zokora (and BAE) by name at the Q&A and it was clearly Zokora, Jol was talking about the other day when he spoke of the French based players we was told were better than Carrick.

Also, it's unlikley Jol would have demanded Bent and got him. That summer, they were clearly already planning to get rid of Jol. Jol said the other day, in his newspaper interview, that he knew Comolli wanted Ramos that summer. There was also itk that said it at the time and then 2 games into the season the club are caught in Sevilla. You don't go to Sevilla and speak to another coach on a whim, after losing 2 games. They'd clearly been thinking of changing coach for a while. So it's unlikely they'd have been that keen to spend £16 million on a player that a coach they want out is "demanding." Levy isn't stupid.

But ultimately the point is that in our system the coach is responsible for coaching. He isn't the manager. A manager like Ferguson or Wenger wouldn't often sign a player with limited knowledge, be it from TV or just seeing them live once. Not only would they want to know the player, but they'd also employ the scouts. In our system, it's the D of F who is responsible for the scouting network. So our coach often has to rely on the opinion of the D of F.

I agree, to a degree, but still maintain that Jol must have known what he was getting with Zokora and signed off on it. But then I've never really looked at Zokora as bad signing. Not a great one either but not bad. Both Jol and Ramos have nearly always picked him when available also.

Basically Comolli's job is much harder, or should I say the players that you would have him responsible for are always going to come with a far higher risk of failure aren't they ? The odds are stacked up against him aren't they.

When recruiting young, relatively unknown players, you are still competing with all the scouting networks of major european countries, plus the scouting networks of the host country. You are trying to catch a player that has somehow slipped big boys net, yet has shown good potential.

I don't think it's as simple as saying all our coach does is coach. I would imagine that with regards to player recruitment the coach (Jol & Ramos) would spend alot of time discussing requirements and realistic possibilities and back-ups.

And even the big well known quality players need to be signed. If Comolli is managing somehow to get their name on the dotted line then I think credit where credit's due.

Here's an example. Comoli says to Jol: "my contact in germany has sounded out Berbatov and had a positive feedback would you be interested. Jol says "yesh fucking please". Comolli then says to Levy he's a great player and worth every penny of the 11m. Levy OK's the deal.
Who deserves the kudos.

In nearly every signing made we are clueless as to where blame or credit ultimately lies, and in a way it's a good thing that two footballing heads are involved and share blame and credit in varying degrees.

It's only when we are dropped the odd clue that we get an occassional inkling of certain things. Jol name checked Dawson again in that BBC interview (saying how he would love to see him playing with Woodgate this season). We know Jol valued Robinson highly too. So probably can say with certainty that he didn't want these guys replaced. Ramos seemed to take a different view and requested a CB and goalkeeper immediately. An example of the coaches not simply coaching the hand dished out to them but coach and DOF working in tandem.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Another thing with regards to the Zokora transfer. You say that Jol intimated that Zokora was hoisted on him. Doesn't that actually reflect badly on Jol. As I have pointed out plenty of live footage of him would have been available. Saying "the ANC was during our season is hardly an excuse is it. Surely he could have taped it on sky plus ?

And if Comolli was saying "I av just zee player for you martin, 8m zay call him zee maestro" and Jol just said "oh go on then Damo you've twisted my arm" that's a bit lame isn't it ?

Could you see any top manager actually taking such an important acquisition, in the heart of his midfield on a whim?

And he must have seen him in the WC at least before Zokora actually signed, regardless of when he was first contacted.



It beggars the question: why would comoli want to oust his trusty ues man (Jol) who would never rock his (Comolli) boat. Why risk bringing in a new manager who will inevitably usurp some of your powers/responsibilities. What was in it for Comolli to put his job on the line for someone who was only going to make his job harder ?

 

[SpurSince57]

Yet on the other hand Ramos chose Dawson ahead of Kaboul, and, like Jol, ignored Rocha. We also have the confused issue of whether Jol wanted an experienced CB as well as Kaboul, or instead of.

In the end, you have to stack up our signings against other clubs', and on that comparison Comolli's don't look too bad.

 

[Banjo]

Can anyone explain why we bought Gilberto?

 

[SpurSince57]

Pass.

 

[joey55]

Another thing with regards to the Zokora transfer. You say that Jol intimated that Zokora was hoisted on him. Doesn't that actually reflect badly on Jol. As I have pointed out plenty of live footage of him would have been available. Saying "the ANC was during our season is hardly an excuse is it. Surely he could have taped it on sky plus ?

And if Comolli was saying "I av just zee player for you martin, 8m zay call him zee maestro" and Jol just said "oh go on then Damo you've twisted my arm" that's a bit lame isn't it ?

Could you see any top manager actually taking such an important acquisition, in the heart of his midfield on a whim?

And he must have seen him in the WC at least before Zokora actually signed, regardless of when he was first contacted.



It beggars the question: why would comoli want to oust his trusty ues man (Jol) who would never rock his (Comolli) boat. Why risk bringing in a new manager who will inevitably usurp some of your powers/responsibilities. What was in it for Comolli to put his job on the line for someone who was only going to make his job harder ?

B-C there are too many points to adress and i can't be bothered, but ultimately you can't seriously believe that Comolli has added value (comparitive to others in his role)? You can defend many of his actions, but in terms of added value, he's brought little to the table.

If Comolli had been appointed as Director of Youth Development then I don't think anyone would have a problem or even mention him. Many wouldn't even know his name. But that isn't his job. He doesn't just deal with the future of the club, but also the present. Of the players he's signed for the first team none have really helped us close the gap on the top 4. In fact, of those less known players, none have really had any real impact or taken us forward. You don't need a Comolli to sign Modric's or Berbatov's.

You have to ask where has he added value (ie contibuted to the club in a way that isn't easily replicated by someone else). Look at Monchi for example. He appointed a coach with a very poor track record in Caparos. Caparos liked to play 532 formation and Monchi on a very limited budget provided him with a squad of players good enough to twice finish in the top 6 and only miss out on CL football on the final day of the season. Caparos got the praise and left for the big job at Depor. This proved to be a disaster. Sevilla then hired a journeyman coach in Ramos and this time with a bigger budget, Monchi provided him with an excellent squad of players to play a different style of football. The result was a 5th and a 3rd finish. He then left for a big job at Spurs and so far it's proving to be a disaster. Once again Monchi has appointed an unglamorous coach, in Jiminez. Alot of the big name players have gone, and Jiminez again has a different style. Yet Monchi has agin provided him with an excellent squad of players. Ironically as we've just had our worst start to the seasson ever, Sevilla have just had there best ever.

The point is Monchi clealry adds incredible value to the Sevilla set up. It's been easy to replace the likes of Caparos and Ramos. It will be easy to replace Jiminez. But it would be incredibly tough for them to replace Monchi. Would it be tough for us to improve on Comolli?

No matter how you spin it, I don't think anyone would say he brings much to the table that isn't easily replaced or improved upon. It's not just the coach and players that have to be of a CL standard. The D of F is a key player at the club, so he has to be amongst the elite in his field aswell. I don't think anyone can really look at the job Comolli has done since he's been here and say there is much to suggest he is. All your arguments do is defend Comolli or his role, but they don't champion him. Your looking for reasons not to blame him, rather than pointing to reasons why he's top class.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You know what Joey, it may greatly surprise you to know that if we could improve upon Comolli I wouldn't piss my pants.

But I think in Bale, Berbatov, Hutton, Gomes, Woodgate, Corluka, GDS, Modric, maybe Pav, Olsen, Rose, some would say there is a fair bit of value (real time and potential/footbaling value and financial) there, wouldn't they.

 

[ripley]

You know what Joey, it may greatly surprise you to know that if we could improve upon Comolli I wouldn't piss my pants.

But I think in Bale, Berbatov, Hutton, Gomes, Woodgate, Corluka, GDS, Modric, maybe Pav, Olsen, Rose, some would say there is a fair bit of value (real time and potential/footbaling value and financial) there, wouldn't they.

A fair bit of talk has gone into rating the players that Comolli has bought. Most members have suggested that our squad is better than the one that Arnesen assembled...but the table doesn't lie. Our team is far worse than before because it is unbalanced. Maybe we have brought in better players...but to what end?
Joey's comparison of Comolli vs Monchi is a valid point. It's not the talent of the individual players brought in that counts...it's the quality of the team. In this regard, our team has failed and since we don't have accountability for this, we're left to assume that Comolli has failed.
I have no probs with the DoF position...i live in North America where every sport has a General Manager that has the same role. The difference is that a GM is extremely accountable for the team assembled.

 

[joey55]

You know what Joey, it may greatly surprise you to know that if we could improve upon Comolli I wouldn't piss my pants.

But I think in Bale, Berbatov, Hutton, Gomes, Woodgate, Corluka, GDS, Modric, maybe Pav, Olsen, Rose, some would say there is a fair bit of value (real time and potential/footbaling value and financial) there, wouldn't they.

Hutton aside, do you really think these are signings we wouldn't have made without Comolli? The youngsters (ie Olsen, Rose, bostock etc) don't count as I said earlier, if he were Director of Youth Development then no one would have a problem with him. I doubt we'd many people would even no his name. But, we are discussing the other side of his work. Where he isn't adding value, is in his advice to the board on football matters and in in the transfer market concerning the 1st team.

You don't need a Comolli for a coach to tell you that he wants a Modric or a Pav. A D of F adds value in the transfer market when there isn't a player the coach knows available. If you can't get striker the coach wants, say Milito, then if a D of F can pull a Zaki out of the bag, then he is really adding value to the club. He's giving the club a real edge. If when we sold Carrick for £18.6 million we'd bought Keita for £2.5 million from Ligue 1, then you'd have to say the D of F, is really bring something extra to the table. If you lose a coach and the D of F is able to bring in an relatively unknown coach, on a low salary, who proves a success then that's really fucking useful. If the D of F is able to recognise when we need a change in terms of coaching, then again he is really benefiting the club. But Comolli doesn't seem to be able to bring much to the table that a manager and the chairman couldn't do on their own. I actually am one of the few people who still think we need a two tier system of some kind. But to compete with the best and be an elite club, the key individuals in this structure have to be elite themselves.

 

[stemark44]

Joey,I reckon you could do a far better job than Comolli at spotting players with talent!
I am really not impressed with the Ist team players he has bought and his signings last year screwed whatever chance we had of league success and cost Jol his job!

 

[morpheus]

Apolgies if there is a post already detailing this, but I did look and couldn't find it in one place. So, as it says in the title. I want to discuss Comollis' signings.

So first up, a list of all the signings I can find....

Dimitar Berbatov - £10.9m from Bayer Leverkusen,
Pascal Chambonda - £5.25m from Wigan
Benoit Assou-Ekottu - £3.5m from Lens,
Didier Zokora - £8.2m from St Etienne,
Ricardo Rocha - £3.3m from Benfica,
Mido – £3.5m from Roma (loan made perm)
Dorian Dervitte - undisclosed from Lille,
Hossam Ghaly - £3.25m from Feyenoord
Darren Bent - £16.5m from Charlton,
Kevin-Prince Boating - £5.4m from Hertha Berlin,
Younes Kaboul - £8.2m from Auxerre,
Gareth Bale - £10m from Southampton,
Adel Taarabt - £2.7m from Lens,
Danny Rose - £680,000 from Leeds,
Ben Alnwick - £1m from Sunderland
Roman Pavlyuchenko - £14m from Spartak Moscow
Vedran Corluka - £8.5m from Man City
David Bentley – £15m from Blackburn
John Bostock – £1.2m from Crystal Palace
Giovani Dos Santos – £4.6m from Barcelona
Luka Modric – £16.5m from Dinamo Zagreb
Alan Hutton - £9m from Glasgow Rangers
Jonathan Woodgate - £8m from Middlesbrough
Chris Gunter - £3m from Cardiff
Gilberto - £1.9m from Hertha Berlin

.....So firstly apologies if I have made any errors, but please let me know if I need to change anything.

Looking at that list, I would split into 3 categories...Hit, Miss, Undecided.
____________________________________________________________
Hit
Dimitar Berbatov, Gareth Bale, Alan Hutton, Jonathan Woodgate.
____________________________________________________________
Miss
Pascal Chambonda, Ricardo Rocha, Mido, Hossam Ghaly, Kevin-Prince, Younes Kaboul, Adel Taarabt, Gilberto, , Benoit Assou-Ekottu.
____________________________________________________________
Undecided
Didier Zokora, Dorian Dervitte, Darren Bent, Danny Rose, Ben Alnwick, Roman Pavlyuchenko, Vedran Corluka, David Bentley, John Bostock, Giovani Dos Santos, Luka Modric, Chris Gunter.
____________________________________________________________

So out of 25 players, I would view 4 as "hits" of which one is now gone. I don't think that I would still be employed if my success rate was this poor in my job, so why should Comolli. :shrug:

I know this is just my opinion, an everyone has their own, but come on, I'm sure you will find it hard pushed to get that "hit" column much higher.

What pisses me off the most about that list is that he has overpaid for the vast majority of those plays. I was under the impression that the DOF was supposed to save the club money. We paid £16.5m for Darren Bent, Mark Hughes buys Roque Santa Cruz for £3.8m and he bang in 20 goals in his first season in the prem. Comolli is a FRAUD he had the same role at St Etienne and they never finished higher than mid table when he was there so how the fuck Levy saw him as being good enough to do the same job in the premiership is anyones guess. Levy won't fall on his sword though ,after all he has a share equivalent of £40m apparently. How you can produce a successful team when you try to buy players by committee is beyond me...and it's definately beyond levy and co.

 

[SpursOldBoy]

I was actually thinking about this last night and Joey has it spot on, DC is not bringing in anybody a decent scout would not have noticed, and to top it all he has allowed Levy to pay over the odds for Bent and Bentley.

I am actually intrigued by the work Hoddle is doing by taking youngsters who have been cut at an early age and seeing if he can develop them and get them back into the game - only time will tell whether he has something here but if we are to stick with the DOF role I think Glenn would be perfect for the role. He understands the Spurs tradition, loves the club, is well respected in the game, and has generated a network of contacts across Europe in the work he is doing now. Whether Glenn would want the role is another thing.

 

[sidford]

it needs to be kept in mind that we signed kaboul and dervitte who at the time were both captains of france for their age group and were very highly regarded. kaboul i do think will prove to be a good player but all you can do is sign talent and hope that it comes through. danny rose, chris gunter and john bostock all very highly regarded who if they dont make it again i dont think we can blame commoli for that. granted he has made some mistakes in purchases but i dont think the biggest mistakes are the players we've signed i genuinely believe its the players we didnt sign e.g. left winger - we needed one even before commoli joined, and a DM, CB and Striker this summer. he needs to be judged on that IMO

 

[WhiteStripe]

it needs to be kept in mind that we signed kaboul and dervitte who at the time were both captains of france for their age group and were very highly regarded. kaboul i do think will prove to be a good player but all you can do is sign talent and hope that it comes through. danny rose, chris gunter and john bostock all very highly regarded who if they dont make it again i dont think we can blame commoli for that. granted he has made some mistakes in purchases but i dont think the biggest mistakes are the players we've signed i genuinely believe its the players we didnt sign e.g. left winger - we needed one even before commoli joined, and a DM, CB and Striker this summer. he needs to be judged on that IMO

I agree, we have signed potentially good players for the future, the problem is, like in the case of Kaboul, we have been forced to play them straight away rather than break them in gently. This is down 100% to the fact that Comolli has not signed enough experienced players that can walk into a premiership 1st team straight away. You are right, he should be judged on his ability to fill the evident holes in our team, and not his hits and misses with younger players, so on that basis, he has to go.

 

[thebenjamin]

What pisses me off the most about that list is that he has overpaid for the vast majority of those plays. I was under the impression that the DOF was supposed to save the club money. We paid £16.5m for Darren Bent, Mark Hughes buys Roque Santa Cruz for £3.8m and he bang in 20 goals in his first season in the prem. Comolli is a FRAUD he had the same role at St Etienne and they never finished higher than mid table when he was there so how the fuck Levy saw him as being good enough to do the same job in the premiership is anyones guess. Levy won't fall on his sword though ,after all he has a share equivalent of £40m apparently. How you can produce a successful team when you try to buy players by committee is beyond me...and it's definately beyond levy and co.

On the face of it Damien Comolli has added absolutely no value whatsoever to our player trading. His much vaunted scouting abilities have unearthed a lot of players everyone in the world had heard of who we then bought for well over what they were worth, a lot of godawful, shit, useless players who we then bought for well over what they were worth, and Dimitar Berbatov.

Added to the absolute genius of bringing in Rocha, and then Pav and Corluka as cuptied players it's frankly an amazement the bloke still draws a wage.

 

[themanwhofellasleep]

I think it's almost impossible to break down the list and work out who (DoF or coach) was responsible for signing the players. It inevitably ends up that supporters of Jol/Ramos give him credit for the good signings and blame Comolli for the bad ones. Or vice versa. You can't say: "Oh, Zokora is shit, Jol never wanted him. Let's blame Comolli." and then say "Berbatov was great. But we shouldn't credit Comolli for that. Everyone must have known about him." If Comolli is in charge of the signing of players, then credit/blame must be distributed evenly. He should get blame for the bad signings and credit for the good ones.

Overall I think that the whole list is a bit misleading because it looks at players in isolation, rather than asking what they do for the team. I think that before signing a player, the DoF should ask:

1) Is the player any good?
2) Is the player likely to adapt to the Premiership/Spurs?
3) Is the player likely to figure in the managers plans?
4) Does the player address a need on the pitch? (ie, do we need to sign a striker if we already have three?)
5) Is the player good value for money?

Players should only be signed if they fulfill all the criteria above. Far too often, it's not the case that the players we've bought are crap, but just that they don't address a need on the pitch. So everyone is crying out for a DM and we buy a winger. Or we sell three of our strikers and buy a playmaker.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Hutton aside, do you really think these are signings we wouldn't have made without Comolli? The youngsters (ie Olsen, Rose, bostock etc) don't count as I said earlier, if he were Director of Youth Development then no one would have a problem with him. I doubt we'd many people would even no his name. But, we are discussing the other side of his work. Where he isn't adding value, is in his advice to the board on football matters and in in the transfer market concerning the 1st team.

You don't need a Comolli for a coach to tell you that he wants a Modric or a Pav. A D of F adds value in the transfer market when there isn't a player the coach knows available. If you can't get striker the coach wants, say Milito, then if a D of F can pull a Zaki out of the bag, then he is really adding value to the club. He's giving the club a real edge. If when we sold Carrick for £18.6 million we'd bought Keita for £2.5 million from Ligue 1, then you'd have to say the D of F, is really bring something extra to the table. If you lose a coach and the D of F is able to bring in an relatively unknown coach, on a low salary, who proves a success then that's really fucking useful. If the D of F is able to recognise when we need a change in terms of coaching, then again he is really benefiting the club. But Comolli doesn't seem to be able to bring much to the table that a manager and the chairman couldn't do on their own. I actually am one of the few people who still think we need a two tier system of some kind. But to compete with the best and be an elite club, the key individuals in this structure have to be elite themselves.

I'm not a million miles away from agreeing on this Joey. If you look in some of the other threads I've actually criticised Comolli myself recently. For instance here:

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=1104804&postcount=130

There have been several occasions now when Comolli has failed to actually provide exactly what was needed and this summer was the latest - and most serious - occasion. You can mitigate, but ultimately he failed.

But I think the comparison with Monichi is a little harsh. He is, possibly, the best recent example of a DOF. Working in Spain you are also less restricted in terms of non EU players you can bring in plus you have a far better quality home grown player to work with. When leaving South America players preference is often for the Spanish, Italian & Portuguese leagues for obvious reasons.

Comolli certainly doesn't seem to have good connections two vital areas, Soth America or Africa. Even his French signings haven't exactly blown us away.

But compare his recruits withmany other english sides and I think in general he's done OK. But the question for me is: is OK good enough ?
The answer - as with Jol - is possibly no. But can we find someone better ? Other than Monchi who would you recommend.


Another point. You used the exapmle of Monchi recruiting lesser known managers and them achieving because of his shrewdness. Wasn't Arnesen's appointment of Jol very much the same. Perhaps with Arnesen around to provide exactly what was needed Jol flourished. With Comolli proving not so proficient Jol floundered ?

Who is the DOF at Hamburg ?

 

[themanwhofellasleep]

Another point. You used the exapmle of Monchi recruiting lesser known managers and them achieving because of his shrewdness. Wasn't Arnesen's appointment of Jol very much the same. Perhaps with Arnesen around to provide exactly what was needed Jol flourished. With Comolli proving not so proficient Jol floundered ?

I wouldn't say that Jol floundered, but I do think you have something there, in terms of making sure that the DoF and coach are on the same wavelength.

As Jol himself said recently: "It’s a good structure. If you work with a football director who’s your choice, or you’re his choice, the system functions. When Frank [Arnesen] was at Spurs it was perfect. But if one coach leaves and the next one is changing 10 or 12 players what’s the value of having the structure?"