Counter-attacking issues

[Has1978]

Watching the Man City Game I noticed 3 or 4 occasions where we had a break on. Each time we dithered until their team was back in position (i.e. 10 men behind the ball and all organised). This was a few days after wasting similar opportunities against PSV.

This got me thinking - apart from the 5-1 game - have we been very good at exploiting our positions? I'm not sure we have (although I guess you could argue that Keane's goal was a sort of counter)

I used to think that it was about having pacy wingers and forwards. Then I read a post on SC (think it was Joey55) who actually got me thinking - it seems to be more about the quick-thinking players - not the quick moving players.

Unfortunately, Arsenal are the best exponents of the counter-attack. Before it was Vieira, Pires and Henry -nowadays it's Fabregas, Hleb and Adebayor. But they are ruthless.

I remember Strachan saying about them in their "invincible" year that teams feared winning corners against them as they would be likely to concede from an Arsenal breakaway.

I am not trying to slag off our midfield but I feel that, though they have their fortes, passing and quick thinking are not the strong points of Jenas, Zokora, Malbranque and (arguably) Lennon. The forwards admittedly are very sharp but they're the ones supposed to be getting onto the end of moves. Do we have a fulcrum, an instigator? I actually think Tainio is our best "quick thinker" other than our forwards although his passing is not much better than, say, Malbranque's.

Huddlestone's passing is good but he likes to take his time. (Kind of reminds me of an ancient Teddy (circa 2003) playing with his hands on hips waiting for everyone to get into position until the opportunity passed)

Anyone else felt this way? Do you think Ramos feels this is an issue and will move to rectify? My view is that it's a damned sight easier scoring aginst 2 or 3 defenders on the run than against a team with their whole team behind the ball. And given that we're not much cop with set pieces there is a hell of a lot of burden on Keane and Berbatov to generate chances for themselves. And when they're off key, we lose.

 

[hughy]

Malbranque's goal against City in the CC was on the counter. Can't really think of many other apart from the 2 or 3 in the 5-1.

 

[al_pacino]

It's not just the people playing the pass that need to be quick thinkers but the players receiving the ball too, far to often you see players making the same run or the wrong run making counter-attacks more difficult.

 

[tommo84]

Other than Lennon, nobody in the team has particularly good movement off the ball. And we don't use Lennon's pace as we should.

As good as Berbatov is, there is no doubt that he slows the tempo of our game right down at times. At times in the past, the likes of Jenas, Keane and Lennon have managed to force a high tempo regardless, but lately it appears the whole team has slowed to Berba's tempo. With regards to the Ar5ena1 game, we played to a high tempo because Ramos and Poyet clearly recognised the occasion demanded it (and the fans demanded it), but the fact that Berbatov was THE anonymous player for us that night is indicative of Berba's main flaw - the lad doesnt just play the game at his own pace, he requires the rest of the team to play at his pace too.

I'm not slating Berbatov, I'm simply pointing out that much of our slow-tempo going forward these days is a feature of having Berba in the team.

 

[Stavi]

this is a good post. i'd attribute it largely to off the ball movement and that. good point well made.

 

[Black]

Other than Lennon, nobody in the team has particularly good movement off the ball. And we don't use Lennon's pace as we should.

As good as Berbatov is, there is no doubt that he slows the tempo of our game right down at times. At times in the past, the likes of Jenas, Keane and Lennon have managed to force a high tempo regardless, but lately it appears the whole team has slowed to Berba's tempo. With regards to the Ar5ena1 game, we played to a high tempo because Ramos and Poyet clearly recognised the occasion demanded it (and the fans demanded it), but the fact that Berbatov was THE anonymous player for us that night is indicative of Berba's main flaw - the lad doesnt just play the game at his own pace, he requires the rest of the team to play at his pace too.

I'm not slating Berbatov, I'm simply pointing out that much of our slow-tempo going forward these days is a feature of having Berba in the team.

Are you talking about the arsenal game, because Berbatov had a hand in all the goals

 

[guy]

when we break the wide players are too often scared to go to the byline with the ball. Lennon and chimbonda(on the left) are the worst at this. They get down their wings, receive the ball then stop running and cut back inside to zokora or someone ,and then all momentum is lost. Apart from hutton (and its rare for him too) no body is willing to take the fullback on and try to squeeze a cross in from the byline. Either that or the players are frightened to have a shot from outside the box and so passes go backwards and we lose momentum.

The 5-1 game was the ultimate in counter attaking football. There was speed, accuracy and some craking finishes from outside or around the edge of the box.

 

[StockSpur]

something ive been moaning about for ages, Keane holds up play becuase he usually gets the first ball on the break but also wants to be on the end of any goal scoring opportunities(greedy twat).

2nd our midfield are extremely good at running down blind alleys and dont see potential through balls until it is too late.

 

[PLTuck]

something ive been moaning about for ages, Keane holds up play becuase he usually gets the first ball on the break but also wants to be on the end of any goal scoring opportunities(greedy twat).

2nd our midfield are extremely good at running down blind alleys and dont see potential through balls until it is too late.

Yeah how dare he score 36 in 60 (or thereabouts. Stat sites are barred from work)

:bang:

 

[NickHSpurs]

JJ is our best outlet for counter attacking situations, he always seems to run into as much space as he can, but gets to the point where he's in the final third with very little support.

Zokora used to do this, mainly in the UEFA Cup. Burst into space then have to cut back through lack of options. Now he just runs round in circles on the spot and passes it sideways or backwards!

Chimbonda is also shit in counter attacking situations. Countless times I've seen him play at RB and see him play the ball behind Lennon, what part of playing the ball behind Lennon is using his key attribute... Pace?! In fact most of our team are guilty for doing this and Lennon's team mates rarely give him the opportunity to run on to a ball, only time he uses is pace is when he picks up the ball and runs with it himself.

Lennon should always be left on the half way line when the opposition has a corner yet it rarely happens, it all comes down to organisation and positioning, something we rarely get right, especially on corners (attacking and defending).

 

[Stoof]

It's interesting that you talk about Arsenal, Has. In The Times this week, Matt Dickinson was writing about how stats have evolved in the modern game and no longer are we bound by number of starts and number of goals. The ProZone stuff amongst other providers now allows analysis of exactly how long each player holds on to the ball in any particular move.

He went on to say that Wenger particularly focuses on this, and getting this speed down to as quick as possible.

I'd love something like that to be used at Spurs more efficiently considering there are lots of new ways to analyse players' performances and not just having to rely on subjective viewers.

 

[SpurSince57]

I think the speed with which PSV attacked in numbers from defence in the first leg showed us up badly. In fact, I think it's true to say that on the whole we do better at this against sides that play an open attacking game. In both CC legs we were able to get men behind Arsenal's high line and exploit the space—how we didn't sew it up at the Death Star I really don't know.

 

[KeaneIsKeane]

Berbatov started the counter attacks that lead to Keane and Lennon's goal though(in the 5-1 match). One with a brilliant flick to Lennon and the other he passed off while getting fouled, luckily the ref played advantage.

 

[Has1978]

It's interesting that you talk about Arsenal, Has. In The Times this week, Matt Dickinson was writing about how stats have evolved in the modern game and no longer are we bound by number of starts and number of goals. The ProZone stuff amongst other providers now allows analysis of exactly how long each player holds on to the ball in any particular move.

He went on to say that Wenger particularly focuses on this, and getting this speed down to as quick as possible.

I'd love something like that to be used at Spurs more efficiently considering there are lots of new ways to analyse players' performances and not just having to rely on subjective viewers.

Martin Jol was a big Pro-Zone user - absolutely no idea about Ramos. Just sent you a pm

 

[chinaman]

Watching the Man City Game I noticed 3 or 4 occasions where we had a break on. Each time we dithered until their team was back in position (i.e. 10 men behind the ball and all organised). This was a few days after wasting similar opportunities against PSV.

This got me thinking - apart from the 5-1 game - have we been very good at exploiting our positions? I'm not sure we have (although I guess you could argue that Keane's goal was a sort of counter)

I used to think that it was about having pacy wingers and forwards. Then I read a post on SC (think it was Joey55) who actually got me thinking - it seems to be more about the quick-thinking players - not the quick moving players.

Unfortunately, Arsenal are the best exponents of the counter-attack. Before it was Vieira, Pires and Henry -nowadays it's Fabregas, Hleb and Adebayor. But they are ruthless.

I remember Strachan saying about them in their "invincible" year that teams feared winning corners against them as they would be likely to concede from an Arsenal breakaway.

I am not trying to slag off our midfield but I feel that, though they have their fortes, passing and quick thinking are not the strong points of Jenas, Zokora, Malbranque and (arguably) Lennon. The forwards admittedly are very sharp but they're the ones supposed to be getting onto the end of moves. Do we have a fulcrum, an instigator? I actually think Tainio is our best "quick thinker" other than our forwards although his passing is not much better than, say, Malbranque's.

Huddlestone's passing is good but he likes to take his time. (Kind of reminds me of an ancient Teddy (circa 2003) playing with his hands on hips waiting for everyone to get into position until the opportunity passed)

Anyone else felt this way? Do you think Ramos feels this is an issue and will move to rectify? My view is that it's a damned sight easier scoring aginst 2 or 3 defenders on the run than against a team with their whole team behind the ball. And given that we're not much cop with set pieces there is a hell of a lot of burden on Keane and Berbatov to generate chances for themselves. And when they're off key, we lose.

The absence of someone in the middle skillful enough the dribble his way in when all other players in forward positions are marked tight. And the absence of a midfielder who can play short and quick 1-2s. Taarabt might be the answer to the above.

 

[van_Pommel]

We wasted countless opportunities to create chances at City. You're exactly right in that we just seemed to wait for them to get back into position, instead of running at them like we did against Ar5ena1. Lennon should be our main weapon in these situations, he should be playing off the last man and making diagonal runs for whoever picks up the ball to put it over the top or down a channel for him(the Hudd would be excellent at this). Instead he always asks for it to feet and runs into a brick wall. :bang:

 

[SpurSince57]

Why restrict it to counter-attacking issues? We've probably had the lion's share of possession in the majority of games this season but have seldom made the most of it. There still seems to be that element of caution in our approach that was Jol's Achilles Heel.

 

[Stoof]

Taarabt might be the answer.

:rofl:

I'm sorry. Really I am.

It just makes me laugh too much.

 

[wooderz]

While watching the Citeh game, what got me the most wound up was that none of our players were willing to shoot. There were countless times Berbatov got the ball on the 18 yard line and just wanted to turn round and round and round...if we took some more shots, we may score some more goals?