Debate: Our best midfield

[TwoSaintsComeMarching]

I want to hear some good arguments people! I want a debate on tactics and movement and where each of our players would be most effective and what suits the team as a whole, etc. Please no retards with knee-jerk reactions from tonights disappointing result.


Playing with two wingers... does it work every time?

For the purposes of this discussion im not considering VDV to be a midfielder but really a second striker; which he almost is.

I always used to believe that the best midfields needed the following ingredients:

1 playmaker
1 holding anchor midfielder
1 box to box midfielder / presser
1 winger

Taking the above into account, I felt we had the perfect combination last season, when for the majority of games we played

Modric/Kranjcar - Huddlestone - Palacios - Lennon/Bentley.​

Then towards the end of the season Palacios got suspended and Bale began showing how immense he really was. This resulted in the following midfield playing against namely the scum, citeh and chelski:

Bale - Modric - Huddlestone - Lennon​

With this formation we ripped Chelsea apart and played decent football against both Citeh and the scum, winning all three games.

And thus the dilemma began: Which of the two is the best midfield, and whether we could afford to move Bale to LB.

Does playing with two wingers mean our only tactic is to get it out wide and cross it in?
Is Modric too pre-occupied with trying to help defend and "get stuck in" when he has to play in the middle?

I, like im sure many of you, am confused as to which is the most balanced midfield. Personally, our league form this season has been making me reconsider the awesome-ness of the second midfield.

Could it be time to give the midfield which played the majority of last seasons games, i.e. with Modric on the left, another go?

The way Modric used to drift in was so good to watch and it gave us a second dimension to Lennon's wing play on the right. And that is the key. Are we too one dimensional with two wingers who just leg it to the byline and put in a cross?

With Modric drifting in, Bale will still have the entire flank to play with and IMO moving him back may give him more room to make those brilliant runs. Right now he seems to be receiving it with too little space in front of him and with the opposition doubling up on him, which means he has to cut inside.

Again, I'm looking to read some insightful and detailed opinions so please only contribute if you believe you can offer this.

COYS!

 

[DEFchenkOE]

I feel the same way and just posted so in the frustration thread but it's probably more suitable here so i'll just repost my thoughts on what's going on at the moment:

We are more or less just playing a percentage game at the moment, get the ball out wide to mostly Bale and occasionally Lennon, get a cross in and hope for a Crouch knockdown for VdV. If VdV wasn't there it would be get the cross in and hope for a Crouch goal or something from Pav/Keane.

Imo we are struggling because we just have an over-reliance on this type of play. There are only so many goals playing like this will get you each game, have we scored more than 2 goals in any one league game so far this season? Actually think that playing 2 left footed players at LB//LW and 2 right footed players at RB/RW isn't helping too much either. I know we played like this V Arse/Chelsk/Man C last year but if you think back to those games the goals we scored didn't really come through great team play, mostly individual efforts apart from the Bale goal against Arsenal.

We don't really have anybody coming in from wide and playing little one-twos around the box or slipping others players in on goal. It's very much get it wide and get the cross in.

As much as people may disagree but think we should really try to play with at least one of our wide players inverted so we at least have a different type of threat. Whether that is Krancjar/Modric on the left wing or VdV/GDS on the right I think that something needs to be done as having 2 players staying wide and only going on the outside 9 times out of 10 is really limiting our scoring options.

 

[TwoSaintsComeMarching]

I feel the same way and just posted so in the frustration thread but it's probably more suitable here so i'll just repost my thoughts on what's going on at the moment:

We are more or less just playing a percentage game at the moment, get the ball out wide to mostly Bale and occasionally Lennon, get a cross in and hope for a Crouch knockdown for VdV. If VdV wasn't there it would be get the cross in and hope for a Crouch goal or something from Pav/Keane.

Imo we are struggling because we just have an over-reliance on this type of play. There are only so many goals playing like this will get you each game, have we scored more than 2 goals in any one league game so far this season? Actually think that playing 2 left footed players at LB//LW and 2 right footed players at RB/RW isn't helping too much either. I know we played like this V Arse/Chelsk/Man C last year but if you think back to those games the goals we scored didn't really come through great team play, mostly individual efforts apart from the Bale goal against Arsenal.

We don't really have anybody coming in from wide and playing little one-twos around the box or slipping others players in on goal. It's very much get it wide and get the cross in.

As much as people may disagree but think we should really try to play with at least one of our wide players inverted so we at least have a different type of threat. Whether that is Krancjar/Modric on the left wing or VdV/GDS on the right I think that something needs to be done as having 2 players staying wide and only going on the outside 9 times out of 10 is really limiting our scoring options.

Spot on!

 

[tommyt]

Two quality first posts. looking forward to catching up and contributing tomorrow.

 

[mpickard2087]

I feel the same way and just posted so in the frustration thread but it's probably more suitable here so i'll just repost my thoughts on what's going on at the moment:

We are more or less just playing a percentage game at the moment, get the ball out wide to mostly Bale and occasionally Lennon, get a cross in and hope for a Crouch knockdown for VdV. If VdV wasn't there it would be get the cross in and hope for a Crouch goal or something from Pav/Keane.

Imo we are struggling because we just have an over-reliance on this type of play. There are only so many goals playing like this will get you each game, have we scored more than 2 goals in any one league game so far this season? Actually think that playing 2 left footed players at LB//LW and 2 right footed players at RB/RW isn't helping too much either. I know we played like this V Arse/Chelsk/Man C last year but if you think back to those games the goals we scored didn't really come through great team play, mostly individual efforts apart from the Bale goal against Arsenal.

We don't really have anybody coming in from wide and playing little one-twos around the box or slipping others players in on goal. It's very much get it wide and get the cross in.

As much as people may disagree but think we should really try to play with at least one of our wide players inverted so we at least have a different type of threat. Whether that is Krancjar/Modric on the left wing or VdV/GDS on the right I think that something needs to be done as having 2 players staying wide and only going on the outside 9 times out of 10 is really limiting our scoring options.

Completely agree. Great post!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The problem is, everybody re-assesed their ideal CM pairing based on dubious criteria.

The idea that Hudd/Modric is the best CM pairing came about because, having been forced to play it, we fluked a win against Arsenal, then put in a decent performance against Chelsea - but it was ten men - and then won the vital game at ManC where we were on the back foot for 60 mins and our defence and defending won us the game - not the scintillating midfield ball domination by our midfield.

I have been saying for ages that my biggest problem with it is that - as good at playing there that Modric is - I don't want Modric (our best and most important 90 min footballer) being shouldered with the responsibility of this role - and for me this is exacerbated when played with Huddelstone because of Huddlestones inability to get about the pitch and his often inability to play the same tempo for 90 mins.

We are not creating quality chances. We are not carving teams open, unless it is Bale having a blinder. We saw a glimpse of what Modric can do when playing in the final third when he set up the goal against Inter for VDV. This is where I want him playing - in their half/final third, not ours.

The game seems like it was a carbon copy of Wigan, lots of ball but a lack of incision and ultimate quality in the final third at times. For me the answer is not to put Modric back on the left and move Bale back - that would be a crying shame as Bale is undoubtedly better at attacking than defending, but to put Modric on the right but give him freedom to drift and play at least one if not two (on occasions) of Jenas and Palacios as insurance.

The Hudd/Mod pairing in isolated periods can look really good (like the middles of the Chelsea game or the start of the ManC game this season), but then at others not so good (arsenal at home/first half ManC away/ second half ManC home) and when the opposition have the ball it is vulnerable and teams don't go from very good to great by being vulnerable. And I believe we have the players to not have to sacrifice any creativity for a better degree of security.

IE:

4
2---------2 from Palacios/Hudd/jenas
3---------Modric-------VDV----------Bale
1--------------------Crouch



You can send Lennon on as impact to run at tired legs or occasionally switch Modric into CM, the centre of the "3" or the left depending on circumstances with VDV and Bale moving around too.

Huddlestone can stroke a nice ball but he needs a busy **** around him to compensate for his deficiencies. Again tonight leading up to the goal we saw how easy players walk past him and even his most ardent admirers have got to accept that he is still inconsistent and this inconsistency is almost always connected to his ability to cope with the rigours of the game as there is no doubting he is technically good.


Apart from getting our team set up right, the most important thing is coaching. I said at the start of the season that coaching and tactics are going to be vital this season. Redknapp's tactics were OK tonight but too many games this season they have been poor in games, making us worse not better. And I still don't see much improvement in the way we move at times off the ball. Sometimes it's great but no where near often enough. It's not good enough to be a great footballer, you have to work like a **** too for 90 minutes and we need to get this ethic instilled into every member of our squad.

Even more annoying than watching Gallas and Kaboul's collective mistake or Wellbeck walking past Hudd (who at least tried) was Bentley's willing ness to just watch as Wellbeck walked away from him with the ball.

The signing of VDV gave us an edge over our rivals like City but we are failing miserably at the moment. We have the best squad - maybe team - that I've watched and we have 16 points from 36. This is woeful with the team we have and fixtures we've had.

And, as I said once before, it's not all shit luck.

 

[TwoSaintsComeMarching]

Some very good points there BC. I will have to respond to them tomorrow as I am falling asleep at my desk!

 

[dax]

Sell Modric (Barcelona or Manure) ,buy a decent Dutchman :rofl:

 

[mike_l]

Only just considered this and I don't really like the fact that I'm leaving Lennon out, I also know a mass of people are gonna lambast me for shifting Bale to Left Back, but I would be tempted to try this sort of lineup from our full squad.

Gomes

Hutton Dawson King Bale

Hudd

Palacios Modric

VDV

Defoe Pav

I reckon that now we are seeing sides double up on Bale non-stop we will see his effectiveness reduced a fair bit, obviously there will be games where he will overcome it, but the past 4 league games we have seen very little from him to justify the media hype. I think coming from LB he would have more space than he presently does and could still offer a forward threat in the Maicon/Dani Alves sense, whilst the presence of Palacios and Hudd would be able to cover him defensively, as well as allowing Modric more freedom than he has in a central 2 with Hudd.

The icing on the cake is that VDV gets to play in his free role but we also are able to field 2 out and out strikers.

As I said, the biggest drawback is the absence of Lennon.
​

 

[THOWIG]

I think one of the main problems is placing the main defensive duties on Huddlestone's shoulders. He's a playmaker and really needs a defensive midfielder alongside him.

I think Redknapp has a problem as he's trying to fit Modric, Van Der Vaart, Bale and Lennon into three.

The dream case scenario would be that Bale plays at left back, but I think he's proven his best position is left midfield.

 

[mike_l]

I think one of the main problems is placing the main defensive duties on Huddlestone's shoulders. He's a playmaker and really needs a defensive midfielder alongside him.

I think Redknapp has a problem as he's trying to fit Modric, Van Der Vaart, Bale and Lennon into three.

The dream case scenario would be that Bale plays at left back, but I think he's proven his best position is left midfield.

Despite the resounding successes against Inter, he has not been so effective in the league from there. I think people may be writing off his potential as a left back too early. Still think he could be devastating from deeper and potentially for the greater good of the team unit.

 

[THOWIG]

Despite the resounding successes against Inter, he has not been so effective in the league from there. I think people may be writing off his potential as a left back too early. Still think he could be devastating from deeper and potentially for the greater good of the team unit.

I agree, but I just don't think he's good enough defensively at present. Playing at left back won't stop his runs, but it will leave us weaker at the back. He can develop there though.

 

[mike_l]

I agree, but I just don't think he's good enough defensively at present. Playing at left back won't stop his runs, but it will leave us weaker at the back. He can develop there though.

Yeah I agree, you need to copy the Sevilla format and have 2 cms capable of covering the fullbacks, or at the very least one incredibly dedicated dm.

We do have the right players to make it work in Palacios and Sandro, but playing both would mean Hudd loses out and playing only one may not be sufficient.

 

[piedpiper]

the problem isn't our midfield. it is harry believing we can only play with Bale/Modric/Hudd and Lennon. in the game yesterday he could have varied our style of play and moved Bale to left back and brought on Kranjcar. this is not an indictment on BAE but it can be done to vary our play keep the opposition guessing. we are one dimensional. use the full squad and not just a select few.

 

[kernowspur]

I do not think that we can play both Hudd and Modric in CM. Neither scores enough goals and with our strikers so out of goalscoring form we need someone other than VDV to chip in regularly. Personally I would rather we built our team around Modric as he is IMO a better player than Hudd and is much more agile and hard working, but we need a CM who scores regularly in January. Who is available I don't know, but then it is not my job to find them.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

This is another area where I think we messed up a bit in pre-season. We actually didn't try out enough tactical variations which was surprising to me as the way Harry was talking on bbc WC coverage I was fully expecting him to try some new things to innovate the team/midfield but instead we've reverted to the tried and tested of the back end of last season.

The thing is with our current midfield options there are a number of things that I believe we could do but is maybe too risky to try at this stage. We could play more of a 4-2-2-2. With 2 holding players in Sandro/Palacios and Hudd/Jenas for example, 2 attacking midfielders in Modric and VDV who will be playing more narrow and centrally as they look to create/score. And then 2 strikers out of our current bunch. Width needs to come from the fullbacks, Bale would be perfect for this and Hutton/Walker could also have license to bomb forward on the right. The defensive mids need to be quite disciplined though to cover the fullbacks but at home where we struggle against bus parkers it could be an option

So with just a few tweaks to our current 4-4-2 we could be 4-2-2-2 and be like this:

Hutton - Kaboul - Gallas - Bale
----------Hudd--Jenas----------
----VdV--------------Modric---
---------Pav-----Crouch

Also we could try a standard 4-3-3, VdV would play a little deeper, like how he does for Holland when he plays. We don't have the best wing forwards granted so would have to make do with what we have but we do have options nevertheless.

Hutton - Kaboul - Gallas - Bale
------Modric--Sandro--VdV------
---Lennon------Pav------Krancjar

I would prefer Sandro to Hudd in there basically because I think he is a lot more mobile and would be better suited to winning it back and just laying it off simple to the more creative players in Modric and VdV. We will lose out on Hudd's passing ability but will gain from having VdV and Modric in the mix. Personally I would play Giovani in Lennon's position as I believe he would score more goals and create more given the opportunity but I know the majority of people don't rate him on here so I left him out.

I think playing like this would give us a lot more flexibility and variation in our attack. Just hope Harry does something to change things round or we will continue to struggle.

 

[NEVILLEB]

I have thought that we miss the old Palacios at the moment

 

[THOWIG]

It's a tricky one this. Easiest solution is we play Bale at left back and let him rampage from deeper positions. We then play two of Palacios, Jenas, Huddlestone or Sandro in central midfield which frees up Modric and Van Der Vaart. There's plusses and minuses to this.

 

[Mr Pink]

I have thought that we miss the old Palacios at the moment

The most pertinent point in the whole of this thread.

 

[THOWIG]

The most pertinent point in the whole of this thread.

Agree