Developing Talent

[Paxtonite]

The sale of Troy Archibald-Henville (what a mouthful!) the other day got me to thinking whether spurs as a club are just especially bad at developing their own talent.

OK we have always been very active in the transfer market going way back, but every now and then we developed the odd one and went through a bit of a purple patch the last time we had a preiod of prolonged success - Perryman, Hughton, Hoddle, Miller, Falco, Barmby, Howells, Samways, Walker spring to mind. In recent times though other than Ledley King (and his predecessor who shall remain nameless) and Jamie O'Hara, we haven't really had anyone break into the 1st team on a regular basis. There have been fleeting appearances from the Dean Marney's of this world (and there have been too many to mention here), but more often than not they have been moved on to, quite often, lower league clubs.

Instead we have been buying young talent from other clubs. Current successes of course are Lennon and Huddlestone (Leeds and Derby respectively and if i am not mistaken Pleat signings). Since then we have acquired Danny Rose and John Bostock and i am sure there are more both from home and abroad.

Maybe there is no need to develop your own talent anymore? You just let other clubs do it and then step in and buy them because you can, but i just thought that it would make sense to be developing our own young stars of the future. Isn't this a failing that our club should be addressing, especially given how much is spent on acadamies and training facilities etc?

 

[Reece]

i think it has been an area we have been poor at recently. But we should have some coming through soon, fingers crossed. Its always important to have players in the team who've grown up at the club (hopefully support the club) and are willing to fight hard every game.

 

[donny1013]

I look at other clubs around us:
Man Yoo have in recent times brought through Campbell (sold), Evans, Welbeck, Gibson but sold off a lot of other youngsters that didn't make the grade to lower league clubs.
Liverpool have a couple like Spearing and Darby but have bought a shitload of young foreign players in the last few years that haven't made it.
Chelski haven't brought through one of their own since Terry.
Woolwich are famed for their youngsters but in recent years other than Wilshere, most that have come through are youngsters pinched from European clubs.
It's a case of whether you get lucky and manage to produce a Ledley or a Giggs etc but these players are rare, so you have to go out and buy potential from other clubs, or just buy the finished article rather than risking money on potential.

 

[scat1620]

I agree we haven't had a great record in this area in recent years, but I'm not convinced it's all Spurs' fault. At the end of the day if you don't have the raw talent in your academy to train and develop, it doesn't matter how good your coaching setup may be, you won't get the players breaking through. Ledley and Scumball both made it through the ranks, so it seems the cream can and often will rise to the top. To back up the argument, can you think of many players who have started in our academy who have been let go by Spurs and gone on to have careers at the top level? Peter Crouch is the only name that springs to mind for me.

I think if we had a Rooney or a Fabregas join our academy as a youngster, they would get their chance because you just can't keep real talent down.

 

[scat1620]

I look at other clubs around us:
Man Yoo have in recent times brought through Campbell (sold), Evans, Welbeck, Gibson but sold off a lot of other youngsters that didn't make the grade to lower league clubs.
Liverpool have a couple like Spearing and Darby but have bought a shitload of young foreign players in the last few years that haven't made it.
Chelski haven't brought through one of their own since Terry.
Woolwich are famed for their youngsters but in recent years other than Wilshere, most that have come through are youngsters pinched from European clubs.
It's a case of whether you get lucky and manage to produce a Ledley or a Giggs etc but these players are rare, so you have to go out and buy potential from other clubs, or just buy the finished article rather than risking money on potential.

Great post, agree entirely. And to add further weight to the argument, Wilshere didn't even start at Arsenal: they poached him from Luton Town as a schoolboy. Rarer than hen's teeth to get a player who begins their career as a schoolboy at a Premiership club and goes on to become a first team regular in the senior side of the same club.

 

[dcarney75]

We aren't really much different to anyone else in this respect. United's golden generation - where a handful of players not only broke through but also had sustained careers there - was a bit of a one-off, really.

The remit of a PL club's academy is largely to prepare players to enter the professional game at a decent level, rather than necessarily play for that club. If you look at the number of ex-Spurs youngsters who are currently playing professionally I think we've done that.

And for what it's worth, I think Mason, Caulker and Townsend in particular, from what I've seen, have every chance of appearing many times for the THFC first team. So things could well be about to get better.

 

[punky]

Maybe there is no need to develop your own talent anymore?

I don't think its financially viable anymore.

We've built a squad around 11 internationals and 7 or more first teamers and we're still struggling to compete. That means squad players, reserve players and academy players are having trouble making the bench let alone cementing a place.

Case in point - Pav. He wants out so instead of bringing up Obika and start giving him Premiership experience we bring in Gudjohnsen on loan (and will probably buy him). If Keane does leave permanantly, Obika won't get shot. We'll just buy another international.

The likes of United and the scum manage to give their players some experience (mainly due to their extra games and CL and need to rest their best players) but we're a long way off from a consolidated top 4 position.

The teams from mid-table and below blood their youth talent because they have to due to budget concerns. The ones that shine get bought by clubs above them in the table. The ones that don't disappeat downwards or abroad.

Just leaves that 3/4 hanging on to the peripheries of the top 4 (including us) that fail their academies.

 

[danielneeds]

Spurs always has been, and will always be a club in which the the management and the fans would rather buy a big name player than give a youth player a chance.

We've always been wealthy so consequently have a tradition of buying, it has always been the Spurs way.

 

[Adam456]

I think the bottom line here is that the Premiership is now of such a high standard that many players that played regularly 10-15 years ago would hardly get a game now. This filters downwards and means that probably only 10 or 20 new young British players will make their Prem debut each year.

They will be the cream of the youth and will be probably have been spread across academies and lower league clubs around the country.

So it will be very difficult indeed for any club to throw a wide enough net to get more than the odd one of those (at academy level) before they actually prove themselves to be good and their value soars.

Our new Academy facility would undoubtedly have helped somewhat but after all of the hassle with [the rejected] planning application and the new stadium project about to kick off in earnest I suspect that we may stick that one on the back-burner

 

[sharky127]

Am i correct in thinking that we have to have youth teams according to FA/FIFA rules?

I think the idea is that it helps promote grass roots football and by giving kids better training at Premier League clubs we are helping to strengthen smaller clubs, as well as occassionally finding a gem of our own.

I'd have thought that having a youth development programme would at least break even? I just takes one player every so often to make the grade and break into the first team or get bought by other clubs?

I do think that the tribunal system needs reviewing though. At the moment clubs like Crystal Palace are being robbed of their young players and the consequences could be as severe as administration.

Still, over the years we have produced numerous players who have made the grade as players. King, Crouch & Barmby have played international football, and we have numerous ex youth team players making a good living in the Championship and Leahues one and two.

 

[gibbs131]

I think most players (including older players) move sideways or backwards when they come to Spurs.

Part of the reason is we have a huge squad (hard to micro manage), and the coaches we bring in are often ex players with little actual experience apart from playing.

I think it is time to get a little more creative with our coaches.

Get in the crusty lower level managers who have been doing it for decades, instead of the old boys Network rolling into the training facility in their Lambos and playing manager dressup.

 

[TheWaddler]

For me, an academy that produces first team players is vital. Not least because it is far cheaper than buying a team, but also because those players brought through will have a a greater affection for the club, and would be less likely to look to move on (I'm thinking Ledley types, rather than you-know-who). In addition, UEFA and PL rules require home-grown players, and whilst they are not particularly stringent at the moment, IMO the trend is towards a greater focus on producing your own.

The £15m we spent on David Bentley was probably the Academy's budget for 5 years, but the big question for me is why did we have to buy David Bentley - why didn't he join Spurs at the age of 12-15? I think our problem has been with youth scouting and persuading players to join THFC, rather than say coaching a Troy A-H into a Ledley. If Troy A-H had enough talent he would have made it. Looking back at all the players to pass through our Academy in the last 15 years, who did we miss out on? Crouch is the only one I can think of. However, there are plenty who joined our rivals like West Ham and the Scum who could easily have joined us instead. That is/has been our big problem IMO.

 

[TheWaddler]

We aren't really much different to anyone else in this respect. United's golden generation - where a handful of players not only broke through but also had sustained careers there - was a bit of a one-off, really.

I disagree about United to an extent. They haven't produced another crop to rival Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Butt and the Nevilles, but if you look at their current PL squad, they still have lots of home grown players. Wes Brown, John O'Shea, Jonny Evans, Darren Fletcher and Darren Gibson are all big players for them. Adding in Giggs, Scholes and Neville that is a large bulk of their squad that is home grown.

Compared to us, we only have Ledley and Crouch as pure academy graduates, although you could count Hudd, Bale and Lennon as home grown from a UEFA point of view, but they didn't come cheap, and didn't play for our academy.

 

[Krafty]

Constant managerial change makes it very difficult to bring through youngsters. Harry knows he wont get sacked for the next 18 months, so when we go away to Leeds in the cup he will use some of the kids to fill the bench - Jol (chasing the top 4 dream) Ramos (always playing catch up), for example, were always under pressure so even having a kid on the bench was a risk.

Plus, I think we all get caught up in the hype. The last few years of youngsters have been the first that I've followed from start to finish. There have been some very good results and performances, but how many have really been good enough to make it at the top? Its easy to set the youth leagues alight, its about making that step up.

Saying that, we have, finally, got our act together and I feel we are much better at developing and long term planning with respect to our youth system.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

I think most players (including older players) move sideways or backwards when they come to Spurs.

Part of the reason is we have a huge squad (hard to micro manage), and the coaches we bring in are often ex players with little actual experience apart from playing.

I think it is time to get a little more creative with our coaches.

Get in the crusty lower level managers who have been doing it for decades, instead of the old boys Network rolling into the training facility in their Lambos and playing manager dressup.

Just out of interest, which crusty lower level manager would you give the gig to?

 

[brett.spurs]

Peter Taylor

 

[DEFchenkOE]

Good thread, personally I do think it's difficult to bring a player through from 8 or 9 years old right up to the 1st team. We may have had players good enough come through at that age but for one reason or another never made it, maybe due to injuries or losing interest as they go through their teens, maybe their attitude or temperament wasn't right as they aged. Look at Terry Dixon, he was supposed to be a quality player but due to injury never made it with us. I think you have to be very lucky to find a player at 8 years old in a school and they develop well enough to come through the u9s, u10s, u11s etc and become EPL players. I'm quite sure we do try, my best friend's nephew plays for Pompey u9s and I went to watch him play against Spurs u9s. We had plenty of teams right the way up to u16s. If they are good enough they will make it i'm sure.

Speaking of Ledders and John Terry, they both came through a team called Senrab for those that didn't know so it's not as if we scouted Ledders straight out of school . Quite a few other players came from there too so you can imagine the amount of scouts that watch them so it's not always easy to get the best talent even at that age.

Look at Joe Cole even, before he joined West Ham so many people knew of his talent and I'm sure lots of clubs tried to sign him. The truth is that when these players show exceptional talent at a young age word spreads fast and i'm sure most clubs will hover around there parents and try to sign them, so I guess you win some and you lose some.

I do think we need to improve in bringing the promising players through once they reach 16-18 though, maybe we could do more. Well I think we're starting to do that now anyway, players like Townsend, Obika etc being loaned out to lower leagues is very good imo. Maybe set up a partnership with a Dutch or Belgian club like Man U did with Antwerp, get a few of these kids abroad to help them develop technically and learn different methods. I don't have a problem with us buying youngsters like the Bostocks but once we have them I really want to see them develop and come through to the first team. Not fall by the wayside and end up in League 1.

 

[ultimateloner]

I dont think a sound academy is that important to our success as a club - measured mainly from a footballing results perspective. we are big enough to buy proven talent, let them perform, and then sell them on for a profit (e.g. Carrick, Berba). We have enough cash to take this on.

Whereas a smaller, poorer club has no choice but to set up a youth system hoping they can pick and nurture someone who they could then sell on. It's a risky model - how many players really become world-beaters? Most of them you just sell them on for peanuts - considering the costs of doing a youth setup is fairly similar across the board, it provides little competitive edge.

therefore it makes sense for spurs to buy rather than educate. I'm not saying we shouldn't do the youth thing, but it's just a side-business. Our efforts should be on scouting for players who could deliver immediately, because we should specialize in bringing players to perform in the prem and then selling them to the big 4. Now that makes much more money and not alot of clubs can do that.

 

[alamo]

I think most players (including older players) move sideways or backwards when they come to Spurs.

What an absolute load of cobblers. Name them

 

[Adam456]

Good thread, personally I do think it's difficult to bring a player through from 8 or 9 years old right up to the 1st team. We may have had players good enough come through at that age but for one reason or another never made it, maybe due to injuries or losing interest as they go through their teens, maybe their attitude or temperament wasn't right as they aged. Look at Terry Dixon, he was supposed to be a quality player but due to injury never made it with us. I think you have to be very lucky to find a player at 8 years old in a school and they develop well enough to come through the u9s, u10s, u11s etc and become EPL players. I'm quite sure we do try, my best friend's nephew plays for Pompey u9s and I went to watch him play against Spurs u9s. We had plenty of teams right the way up to u16s. If they are good enough they will make it i'm sure.

Speaking of Ledders and John Terry, they both came through a team called Senrabfor those that didn't know so it's not as if we scouted Ledders straight out of school . Quite a few other players came from there too so you can imagine the amount of scouts that watch them so it's not always easy to get the best talent even at that age.

Look at Joe Cole even, before he joined West Ham so many people knew of his talent and I'm sure lots of clubs tried to sign him. The truth is that when these players show exceptional talent at a young age word spreads fast and i'm sure most clubs will hover around there parents and try to sign them, so I guess you win some and you lose some.

I do think we need to improve in bringing the promising players through once they reach 16-18 though, maybe we could do more. Well I think we're starting to do that now anyway, players like Townsend, Obika etc being loaned out to lower leagues is very good imo. Maybe set up a partnership with a Dutch or Belgian club like Man U did with Antwerp, get a few of these kids abroad to help them develop technically and learn different methods. I don't have a problem with us buying youngsters like the Bostocks but once we have them I really want to see them develop and come through to the first team. Not fall by the wayside and end up in League 1.

Hmm they brought a few through. They were a bit of a youth mecca for a while in East London. Perhaps forming 'first option' links with a few of those clubs (for a chunk of money per year) rather than pro clubs would be viable. But then they haven't signed contracts by that point so not enforceable (correct me if I'm wrong)