ENIC...

[McArchibald]

ENIC haven't invested massively into the club over the years but they did contribute a total of some £26m to two separate £15m rights issues. And, as I mentioned above, they also loaned the club £40m back in 2014 which was subsequently converted into equity. So £66m in total. Nothing amazing, certainly. But nor is it negligible.

Completely negligible.
The stadium alone is valued at 1.2bn (according to Swiss Ramble). And to obtain that asset Enic has laid out 66m, which works out as 5.5% of the total stadium investment. Add to that the training centre, goodwill and the value of the squad... and it's clear that they're getting away with daylight robbery here...

 

[LeParisien]

Completely negligible.
The stadium alone is valued at 1.2bn (according to Swiss Ramble). And to obtain that asset Enic has laid out 66m, which works out as 5.5% of the total stadium investment. Add to that the training centre, goodwill and the value of the squad... and it's clear that they're getting away with daylight robbery here...

How much was the club valued at when they took over? How much is it valued at now? How much have enic taken out of the club?

 

[buckley]

When they took over I forget the cost I think it was 30 odd million pounds not sure on that one .
I do know that house prices are now 200% higher than twenty years ago .
Make of that what you will .

 

[buckley]

I know Sugar said " spurs were one of his worst investments " paraphrasing
I doubt ENIC would say that .

 

[buckley]

So I have a house I own 100% I knock down that house and build a new one and to build costs approx £850 million but I have borrowed from the banks the amount it cost to build in the first place or almost the same amount and I am being told I still own that house and the value has increased but the loan is still the same amount .
ENIC are playing the five card trick to my eyes albeit I am not the brightest person I can only say what I see with my own eyes .
It seems to me the bank owns that house until the loan amount is a sensible amount that can be reasonably paid up .
Like I say I am a simple person . I think we had better hope Joe Lewis does (god forbid)not die or if he did his heirs feel some connection to THFC. Not being anywhere near an expert on company law but it seems to me all the negative stuff like bank loans are tied to THFC .
With ENIC seemingly not liable to these so called " manageable bank loans "

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

Just curious secretlemonadedrinker sometimes you come across as more off an ENIC fan than a Spurs fan with your constant devotion, is there a point where you stop defending them and say actually they have done quite poorly, ie if we go another 5,10 or 20 years without trophies whilst they continue to fall short on what is needed on field at pivotal times? The question back to me is fair, I would be an ENIC fan instantly if they would show half the imagination and ambition on the field as off it, they don't have to be the biggest spenders or win everything, that is unreasonable.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

You still dont get my point that the 825 million pound debt is Tottenham hotspurs debt not an ENIC debt when and if they walk away they will take every penny they get as profit and Tottenham will still carry the debt which is a big no no for people who would like to buy the club the amounts you say they invested are in comparison to the debt peanuts .

I get your point perfectly. What you need to get, however, is that there is a direct correlation between a debt that a company is carrying and the value of that company. Here's how another poster, Led's Zeppelin (who, trust me, really knows his shit), explained it far better than I could when the same subject was broached a while back:

"In financial terms and in this context there's no meaningful difference between ENIC's "own money" and borrowed money. Borrowed money creates a liability on the balance sheet which diminishes net value by exactly the same amount as using their cash would."

And no, potential buyers will not be put off by debt. If that was the case, then Chelsea would have folded 17 years ago and Man City would still be yo-yoing between the divisions. There is nothing inherently wrong with debt. Good debt is one of the key means to growing a business.

They should not be called a company that invests when they patently do not to any great amount invest their own money .

ENIC was set up as a Stock Exchange listed company to invest its shareholders' money in a variety of shareholdings in different companies. It was an investment fund. That's what the "Investment" in their acronym refers to. It doesn't refer to buying one company and then investing funds into that company.

In that sense, the name ENIC is now something of a misnomer or anachronism. ENIC no longer has any shareholders other than the Lewis and Levy families and its only remaining investment is in the one company, Spurs, and related subsidiaries.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Completely negligible.
The stadium alone is valued at 1.2bn (according to Swiss Ramble). And to obtain that asset Enic has laid out 66m, which works out as 5.5% of the total stadium investment. Add to that the training centre, goodwill and the value of the squad... and it's clear that they're getting away with daylight robbery here...

I can't say exactly what ENIC's total outlay is. The figures aren't publicly or readily available. But I'd estimate that it is in the region of £125-£150m. The £66m figure that you mention is just the money that ENIC has put directly into the club. They have spent at least as much again buying out Sugar (in two separate tranches) and other shareholders.

As to "getting away with daylight robbery".......if ENIC make a huge profit on any eventual sale of Spurs, that's no skin off our backs. Making money out of the club is not the same as taking money out of the club. So I couldn't give a monkey's how much they make. I only care who they sell to - what the new owners' motives are; what their ethics are; what their intention is; their means; their expertise. That's all that any Spurs fan should care about in that respect.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

it wasn't lost on me your attempts to patronise and also add your sarcasm to the proceedings.

Nah, mate. Nice try, but I'm not having that! Your fallacy riddled, sarcasm laden post to me was entirely unprovoked and gratuitous. You have no basis for trying to imply any kind of equivalence.

That aside, I enjoy reading your opinion, even if I do disagree with it. I relish the debate.

Obviously you are happy with the way the club is run and feel that the club are in a good place, I don't feel the same way and have always echoed my strong opinions on this, again I'm not everyone's cup of tea but it is not something that I am worried about and never have been.

I'm not at all happy with the way that the club is run in some respects. Levy will continue to exasperate me for as long as he continues to meddle in and fudge the football side of things.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Just curious secretlemonadedrinker sometimes you come across as more off an ENIC fan than a Spurs fan with your constant devotion, is there a point where you stop defending them and say actually they have done quite poorly, ie if we go another 5,10 or 20 years without trophies whilst they continue to fall short on what is needed on field at pivotal times? The question back to me is fair, I would be an ENIC fan instantly if they would show half the imagination and ambition on the field as off it, they don't have to be the biggest spenders or win everything, that is unreasonable.

I think that, all too often, people read into posts what they want to read. It seems that you are currently disposed to think ill of ENIC. So it is only natural that you mistrust anyone who counters criticism of them. But what I think you are missing is that I only disagree with what I believe to be unfair or plain ill informed criticism. And, with the greatest of respect, a huge amount of the criticism of Levy and ENIC over the past day or two has been unfair and plain ill informed.

As I already said above, I am very critical of Levy and ENIC where I feel it is deserved - specifically with regard to his bungling mismanagement of the football side of things. For what little it's worth, I was also an active and vociferous opponent of his scandalous attempt to relocate the club to Stratford.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

I think that, all too often, people read into posts what they want to read. It seems that you are currently disposed to think ill of ENIC. So it is only natural that you mistrust anyone who counters criticism of them. But what I think you are missing is that I only disagree with what I believe to be unfair or plain ill informed criticism. And, with the greatest of respect, a huge amount of the criticism of Levy and ENIC over the past day or two has been unfair and plain ill informed.

As I already said above, I am very critical of Levy and ENIC where I feel it is deserved - specifically with regard to his bungling mismanagement of the football side of things. For what little it's worth, I was also an active and vociferous opponent of his scandalous attempt to relocate the club to Stratford.

Sorry mate but I'm not getting that I'm angry or critical of ENIC vibe from you but a good politicans answer non the less in that you didn't answer the question, so back to it, is there a point where you say maybe they're not worth spending hours of my 'unearned' time defending, maybe 5, 10 or 20 years? because surely if success (real success) never comes the stadium is of little value? (at least from a fans perspective, but very valuable to a couple of people)

 

[SpursSince1980]

Well, for the man who has everything, a London NFL franchise would certainly be unique. The only one in the world outside of the US and the first one in the world outside of the US.

But these stories and rumours crop up from time to time. If he was that interested in an NFL franchise, he could have bought it years ago, hired the best management team and told them to get on with it.

Here's hoping though!

Would be cool, but I can only see him considering this, as something that benefits Amazon directly. He would never acquire a sports franchise for shits and giggles. He’s not that guy. He’s not a sports nut.

He‘s 100% nerd. His passion is in his space program. He will be spending a lot of his time and money focusing on this. And he is competitive. Wants to beat Elon Musk in this space.

Only reason he would fork over 2bn for a club such as ours would be ‘cos he sees it as a business investment that helps either the company he founded or his space program.

I worked at Amazon between 1996 and 2001. So, got opportunities to be in meetings and occasionally chat with Jeff. In fact, my infamous claim to fame, is that my dog took a shit in his office! And he was totally cool about it. (Good thing he really liked my dog!!).

I can’t claim to know him at all. But you always got the impression that he is not a flashy geek, like Musk. He is actually a bit more like Gates, but with even more private.

He is always focused on the future, and is a voracious reader. I recall one time he stopped into my office (back when I was running the History category, back when it was just books), and we get into a conversation about Roman acquaducts sewage systems, and how they were constructed... etc, etc, etc. Crux of the conversation was about building with one eye always looking to the future. I think that is just the way he is wired.

So, unless he sees owning a Sports franchise as something that is important for the future of one of his businesses/passions, I just don’t see it happening.

 

[hellava_tough]

Would be cool, but I can only see him considering this, as something that benefits Amazon directly. He would never acquire a sports franchise for shits and giggles. He’s not that guy. He’s not a sports nut.

He‘s 100% nerd. His passion is in his space program. He will be spending a lot of his time and money focusing on this. And he is competitive. Wants to beat Elon Musk in this space.

Only reason he would fork over 2bn for a club such as ours would be ‘cos he sees it as a business investment that helps either the company he founded or his space program.

I worked at Amazon between 1996 and 2001. So, got opportunities to be in meetings and occasionally chat with Jeff. In fact, my infamous claim to fame, is that my dog took a shit in his office! And he was totally cool about it. (Good thing he really liked my dog!!).

I can’t claim to know him at all. But you always got the impression that he is not a flashy geek, like Musk. He is actually a bit more like Gates, but with even more private.

He is always focused on the future, and is a voracious reader. I recall one time he stopped into my office (back when I was running the History category, back when it was just books), and we get into a conversation about Roman acquaducts sewage systems, and how they were constructed... etc, etc, etc. Crux of the conversation was about building with one eye always looking to the future. I think that is just the way he is wired.

So, unless he sees owning a Sports franchise as something that is important for the future of one of his businesses/passions, I just don’t see it happening.

Great anecdotes, thanks for sharing

 

[spursfan77]

I know Sugar said " spurs were one of his worst investments " paraphrasing
I doubt ENIC would say that .

Well, sugar was one of our worst chairman, so maybe we are equal. Try and remember back to how utterly shit we were most seasons he was chairman.

 

[hellava_tough]

Well, sugar was one of our worst chairman, so maybe we are equal. Try and remember back to how utterly shit we were most seasons he was chairman.

To be fair to Sugar he probably saved the club from going out of existence.

Spurs were in a bad way financially and Robert Maxwell wanted to buy us. In fact, I think that was the direct reason why Sugar bought the club; he didn't want Maxwell getting his hands on us.

You're right though, Sugar didn't really know much about the footballing industry, especially at a time it was changing.

I think he could never get his head around players and agents; the fact that your employees wielded so much power and to a certain extent, you had to placate them.

Finally, there's an irony that Sugar was instrumental in bringing in the big-money tv era of football, but his club was never able to capitalize on it, until he had sold up.

 

[buckley]

I am told ENIC investment is like having a house mortgage and this is their commitment . All I know is if it cannot fulfill or do not fulfil my mortgage payments me house will be forfeited to the bank . Harsh but true Joe Lewis is not going to live forever and I still think we are in a precarious position . Whoever " exept Levy " takes control we had better hope they have the clubs best interest at heart .
Because if it is some one with no interest in football and Spurs they could sell the club for whatever amount debt and all to anyone whose intention is to make a quick buck . We will be bait for any shyster out there . To have such confidence in ENIC as owners is praiseworthy but
Any body with thoughts of what all happen to the club post Joe Lewis I would be glad to hear the views especially if it is positive .
Myself I am at a loss of what happens to the club it may be we get lucky and have the kind oo owners we can all respect on the other hand football is littered with people whose interest is in making a quick buck we would be a prime target for these type of asset strippers .

 

[BringBack_leGin]

If Enic don’t want to keep running us when Joe goes, we’ll be sold to someone who does. He was a70% share, would not be shocked off at some point Darth Levy tries to buy him out anyway.

 

[spursfan77]

To be fair to Sugar he probably saved the club from going out of existence.

Spurs were in a bad way financially and Robert Maxwell wanted to buy us. In fact, I think that was the direct reason why Sugar bought the club; he didn't want Maxwell getting his hands on us.

You're right though, Sugar didn't really know much about the footballing industry, especially at a time it was changing.

I think he could never get his head around players and agents; the fact that your employees wielded so much power and to a certain extent, you had to placate them.

Finally, there's an irony that Sugar was instrumental in bringing in the big-money tv era of football, but his club was never able to capitalize on it, until he had sold up.

Yes to the first bit but he bought us to maximise Amstrad’s position with Sky at the beginning of their coverage of football. It wasn’t based on a love of the club, the £11 million (off the top of my head) he used to buy us with was a calculated decision to maximise returns. It had nothing to do with stopping Maxwell, although I’m not saying that wasn’t a personal reason, but it wasn’t a business one. I remember the time very well.

As for his stewardship, one quick example. We were the leaders in merchandising and off pitch marketing in the country under Scolar. Sugar sacked the person in charge of that and he then went to Man U and set up their marketing department, that helped grow them massively with their ongoing success on the pitch. It was the first of many disastrous decisions by Sugar. Selling us was the best decision he made, but by the end of that he’d held us back hugely (refusing to expand the west stand despite the obvious pros) and it was a relief for many of us when he left.

 

[Metalhead]

Yes to the first bit but he bought us to maximise Amstrad’s position with Sky at the beginning of their coverage of football. It wasn’t based on a love of the club, the £11 million (off the top of my head) he used to buy us with was a calculated decision to maximise returns. It had nothing to do with stopping Maxwell, although I’m not saying that wasn’t a personal reason, but it wasn’t a business one. I remember the time very well.

As for his stewardship, one quick example. We were the leaders in merchandising and off pitch marketing in the country under Scolar. Sugar sacked the person in charge of that and he then went to Man U and set up their marketing department, that helped grow them massively with their ongoing success on the pitch. It was the first of many disastrous decisions by Sugar. Selling us was the best decision he made, but by the end of that he’d held us back hugely (refusing to expand the west stand despite the obvious pros) and it was a relief for many of us when he left.

Were we actually successful with off the field businesses under Scholar? I got the impression that some of the ventures didn't turn out all that well. There is a piece on that very subject floating around on YouTube.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Sorry mate but I'm not getting that I'm angry or critical of ENIC vibe from you but a good politicans answer non the less in that you didn't answer the question, so back to it, is there a point where you say maybe they're not worth spending hours of my 'unearned' time defending, maybe 5, 10 or 20 years? because surely if success (real success) never comes the stadium is of little value? (at least from a fans perspective, but very valuable to a couple of people)

I did answer your question. You just didn't read my answer properly! Or rather, you chose to disbelieve what I wrote. As I said, all too often, people read only what they want to read.

To repeat, the answer is that I already do criticise ENIC / Levy where and when I feel it is justified.