ENIC...

[olliec]

But do you not find it suspicious that the only manager we didn't spend under was Poch? It seems pretty evident that he turned down a high number of targets.

Poch talked often of slow integration and keeping players for a long time. So I can't believe the complete lack of spend was completely on Levy.

Didn’t we want Grealish but levy didn’t want to cough up the extra 5m or something when Poch was around? I think maybe Poch got tired of a stale squad that came close but didn’t get over the line. Levy didn’t deliver when we needed him to.

 

[dontcallme]

Didn’t we want Grealish but levy didn’t want to cough up the extra 5m or something when Poch was around? I think maybe Poch got tired of a stale squad that came close but didn’t get over the line. Levy didn’t deliver when we needed him to.

Poch apparently didn't see Grealish as a main target. Given Grealish's contract situation and Villa's financial position Levy saw a potentially good deal but in the end it was a higher fee.

Levy not delivering a player the manager didn't seem to want is a very weak argument.

Poch also spoke often of slow integration into the squad and being loyal to his players. Doesn't seem like he wanted constant signings. The fact that under every other manager we have done a high number of deals can't be a coincidence.

 

[Stoof]

That was Poch mainly not Enic. He was never backed and worked miracles with our squad.

This is an extreme take. But that's what this sort of discussion always ends up with.

The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. He was backed at various times when it was not financially ruinous to do so (you can't fail to acknowledge the world class real estate that is now in our name and that had an impact on our squad). Poch was also offered options but was stubborn and said he'd rather do without than have some of the players deals were brokered for. Poch should have potentially been more willing to embrace this and Levy should have done more in this space generally.

The baffling thing that I'm not sure I've ever had a decent response to is that at what point is it not in Daniel Levy's interest (as 30% of 85% owner of the club) for the club not to do well? Why would he intentionally do anything to harm what everyone considers to be his motivation - i.e. his wealth?

I think the whole ESL idea was disgusting, but let's not go on like the reaction from the other footballing bodies wasn't anything but a panic that they would be losing some of their piece of the pie.

For me, there is no solution to this. I can't see it being sensible to be after a billionaire owner (who exactly?)? I mean they're not getting great press at the moment.

 

[dontcallme]

This is an extreme take. But that's what this sort of discussion always ends up with.

The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. He was backed at various times when it was not financially ruinous to do so (you can't fail to acknowledge the world class real estate that is now in our name and that had an impact on our squad). Poch was also offered options but was stubborn and said he'd rather do without than have some of the players deals were brokered for. Poch should have potentially been more willing to embrace this and Levy should have done more in this space generally.

The baffling thing that I'm not sure I've ever had a decent response to is that at what point is it not in Daniel Levy's interest (as 30% of 85% owner of the club) for the club not to do well? Why would he intentionally do anything to harm what everyone considers to be his motivation - i.e. his wealth?

I think the whole ESL idea was disgusting, but let's not go on like the reaction from the other footballing bodies wasn't anything but a panic that they would be losing some of their piece of the pie.

For me, there is no solution to this. I can't see it being sensible to be after a billionaire owner (who exactly?)? I mean they're not getting great press at the moment.

Good post.

I am former BSODL but have lost a lot of faith. The people who seem most against him seem to focus heavily on the amount we spend. But it was buying intelligently and within our budget which paved way for our continuous improvement up to the Poch era.

My gripe is at the lack of executing a long term plan and transfer strategy. It has all been very scattergun.

In the last 2 seasons we have the 3rd highest net spend but still people regularly say we're not spending.

 

[olliec]

Poch apparently didn't see Grealish as a main target. Given Grealish's contract situation and Villa's financial position Levy saw a potentially good deal but in the end it was a higher fee.

Levy not delivering a player the manager didn't seem to want is a very weak argument.

Poch also spoke often of slow integration into the squad and being loyal to his players. Doesn't seem like he wanted constant signings. The fact that under every other manager we have done a high number of deals can't be a coincidence.

I think Poch wanted big targets which levy couldn’t deliver to take us to that next level. The dross were were signing under Poch were not good enough and didn’t take us to the next level. Are these Levys targets or Pochs? Some players include Foyth, Gedson Fernandes, Jansen, nkoudou, Fazio, Wimmer and many more.

 

[dontcallme]

I think Poch wanted big targets which levy couldn’t deliver to take us to that next level. The dross were were signing under Poch were not good enough and didn’t take us to the next level. Are these Levys targets or Pochs? Some players include Foyth, Gedson Fernandes, Jansen, nkoudou, Fazio, Wimmer and many more.

As a club we should always buy young upcoming players. We have done it very successfully in the past.

Poch wanted Lo Celso but still people accuse Levy of buying him over Fernandes.

Every club buys players and gets the manager to sign off on them.

AVB failed as he wanted the likes of Moutinho who, wage wise, was out of our league at the time. Poch appeared to want similar. People go on and on about Skriniar but if he's so easy to sign why didn't anyone else buy him?

 

[RJR1949]

Joe Lewis had been an excellent custodian of the club and if he were to sell out tomorrow he’d leave the club in a very much better position than found it - with a world class training ground and stadium and with poised to generate the financial resources needed for sustained success.

But for Joe Lewis Spurs could have become an Everton living in the shadow of a more successful (south) London club or an Aston Villa, fading into mid-table obscurity and occasional regulation.

He will sell eventually. He buys assets, waits for them to appreciate and then aims to sell at the top of the market - he sold a Hockney painting for the highest price ever achieved by a work of a living artist.

But we need to be careful what we wish for. There are 2 classes of buyer for Premier League clubs.

First, Americans who want to take money out of the game like the Glazers, the Kroenkes or FSG: I don’t want one of those.

Second, people who want to use football to burnish their image. The worry here is that the most likely buyer is Saudi Arabia that is trying desperately to”sports wash” its image and I don’t want them either!

 

[wrd]

I'm gonna post in here and not the ESL specific thread because I think this situation with Levy is bigger than that.

I'll open by saying that I think that there should be consequences to some of the decisions that Levy has made over the last 18 months. I want to see him held accountable for the choices he has been making.

However I'm pragmatic and when the talk concerns ENIC selling, I can't say I want them to sell until I know who we would be selling to. With the size and valuation of the club as it is now, I analyse the type of people who actually would have the money to buy us and typically people who have that kind of money have made it in questionable ways so I wonder if we're now too big and it'd take a miracle to find an ethically decent owner. If we were in a scenario where those type of possible owners were available then I'd be absolutely banging the drum that ENIC need to leave on the back of this ESL Fiasco.

I think the divide for supports when it comes to Levy/ENIC has always been; Do you think he does the best for Tottenham Hotspur the business or do you think he does the best for Tottenham Hotspur the football club (meaning the fans).

I think the balanced fans among us would have liked to have believed that by doing the best for the business that in turn gives the best possible chance for doing best for the fans, even if it was a long term strategy. In the short term it could be incredibly frustrating but there was a sentiment there that we were betting set up to be best placed to become one of the elite off the pitch now so we could become one of the elite on the pitch.

For me that viewpoint died over this week, this was not a decision made in the best interest of loyal Tottenham supporters. This was purely a business decision looking to extract money from casual fans around the club regardless of their sentiment towards tottenham and with a judgement that we lemmings would just have to go along with it. It was a decision which turned it's back on the ethos of this football club, the ethos of this being a working class sport and the 150 years of footballing traditions in this country. This was about stuffing the Tottenham Turkey even further regardless of what us fans felt about the decisions and the fact we weren't consulted on it should tell you all you need to know on how much they valued our opinion.

I was shocked at how many fans tried to justify it because "Man City and Chelsea". I thought we loved the moral high ground we held over these clubs? Yes we want the owners to invest but not at the expense of having sport washing, I thought we loved that our stadium meant we were going to grow organically. Instead people had an attitude of well if you can't beat em, join em and decided that there wasn't ever a possibility that Levy could actually show integrity and stand by the game he pretends he was a fan of as a boy.

He built us a giant stadium, a stadium we all love, we all miss going to. A stadium we hope will lead us to a bright future but Levy can not use that stadium to justify the greed that was signing up to this closed league. Let's not forget something, not a single fan asked that this new stadium be built for a billion quid. Not a single Spurs fan asked for it to also have an NFL pitch, a sky walk, all these fancy bits added on. Not a single one of us demanded that of him. That was his decision and his decision alone. We were happy for it but on the basis that we wouldn't sell our soul to fund it and that he could carefully manage the debt so it didn't cripple the football club. If he is now telling us that he had to make this decision because of the stadium debt then he has colossally fucked up. If he built this stadium and didn't prepare for every worst case scenario, every eventuality even if nobody saw a pandemic coming, he fucked up because he was the one who made the choice to build this stadium at such an expense. He could have built a stadium at a more manageable cost which was the plan in the first place. We're all hoping his masterplan works out for the best with the stadium, that it brings it unrivalled revenue and that we can go back to calling him a genius for doing it and not crippling the club with debt but right now it looks like if he needs to try and ruin English football because of the decision he made then he fucked up big time and it's on him and it's no good crying oh but the stadium when he was the one that made the choices he did with the stadium.

This ESL thing is not the only thing he has screwed up in recent times. The situation with Jose was entirely his doing. He didn't analyse the makeup of our squad and analyse the situation at Chelsea and United and consider the possibility of it not being a good fit. Not only that but he managed to give an unemployed man ridiculous leverage in his contract.

However the big mistake he has made recently is how he approached sacking the man. He waited until Champions League football was out of reach to make the decision. We still had it within our grasp and he waited and waited on it, this has cost the club the opportunity to fight for top4. This has cost the club the possibility of that revenue stream, the possibility of that potential ace up the sleeve when negotiating naming rights.

Speaking of naming rights, how is that going to go with our reputation recently taking a dent, why have we missed out on over a years worth of revenue looking for a deal which may not exist all the while Tottenham as a club look a worse and worse brand to pay eye watering sums week on week.

I question how we're going to be able to work with the other clubs in world football with Levy at the helm now, I wonder what it's done to our reputation on that front.

For me; if we can't find owners with a decent ethical background and are thusly stuck with ENIC, it's time for Daniel to stop being the face of the operation and retreat to the shadows, he can not be the footballing face of this club. We need a new man in charge of that image. I said when he sacked Poch that it felt like the last throw of the dice for Levy. Well look at the glaring errors he's made since that day, it's time for consequence. Nothing rivals this ESL mistake.

 

[onthetwo]

I'm gonna post in here and not the ESL specific thread because I think this situation with Levy is bigger than that.

I'll open by saying that I think that there should be consequences to some of the decisions that Levy has made over the last 18 months. I want to see him held accountable for the choices he has been making.

However I'm pragmatic and when the talk concerns ENIC selling, I can't say I want them to sell until I know who we would be selling to. With the size and valuation of the club as it is now, I analyse the type of people who actually would have the money to buy us and typically people who have that kind of money have made it in questionable ways so I wonder if we're now too big and it'd take a miracle to find an ethically decent owner. If we were in a scenario where those type of possible owners were available then I'd be absolutely banging the drum that ENIC need to leave on the back of this ESL Fiasco.

I think the divide for supports when it comes to Levy/ENIC has always been; Do you think he does the best for Tottenham Hotspur the business or do you think he does the best for Tottenham Hotspur the football club (meaning the fans).

I think the balanced fans among us would have liked to have believed that by doing the best for the business that in turn gives the best possible chance for doing best for the fans, even if it was a long term strategy. In the short term it could be incredibly frustrating but there was a sentiment there that we were betting set up to be best placed to become one of the elite off the pitch now so we could become one of the elite on the pitch.

For me that viewpoint died over this week, this was not a decision made in the best interest of loyal Tottenham supporters. This was purely a business decision looking to extract money from casual fans around the club regardless of their sentiment towards tottenham and with a judgement that we lemmings would just have to go along with it. It was a decision which turned it's back on the ethos of this football club, the ethos of this being a working class sport and the 150 years of footballing traditions in this country. This was about stuffing the Tottenham Turkey even further regardless of what us fans felt about the decisions and the fact we weren't consulted on it should tell you all you need to know on how much they valued our opinion.

I was shocked at how many fans tried to justify it because "Man City and Chelsea". I thought we loved the moral high ground we held over these clubs? Yes we want the owners to invest but not at the expense of having sport washing, I thought we loved that our stadium meant we were going to grow organically. Instead people had an attitude of well if you can't beat em, join em and decided that there wasn't ever a possibility that Levy could actually show integrity and stand by the game he pretends he was a fan of as a boy.

He built us a giant stadium, a stadium we all love, we all miss going to. A stadium we hope will lead us to a bright future but Levy can not use that stadium to justify the greed that was signing up to this closed league. Let's not forget something, not a single fan asked that this new stadium be built for a billion quid. Not a single Spurs fan asked for it to also have an NFL pitch, a sky walk, all these fancy bits added on. Not a single one of us demanded that of him. That was his decision and his decision alone. We were happy for it but on the basis that we wouldn't sell our soul to fund it and that he could carefully manage the debt so it didn't cripple the football club. If he is now telling us that he had to make this decision because of the stadium debt then he has colossally fucked up. If he built this stadium and didn't prepare for every worst case scenario, every eventuality even if nobody saw a pandemic coming, he fucked up because he was the one who made the choice to build this stadium at such an expense. He could have built a stadium at a more manageable cost which was the plan in the first place. We're all hoping his masterplan works out for the best with the stadium, that it brings it unrivalled revenue and that we can go back to calling him a genius for doing it and not crippling the club with debt but right now it looks like if he needs to try and ruin English football because of the decision he made then he fucked up big time and it's on him and it's no good crying oh but the stadium when he was the one that made the choices he did with the stadium.

This ESL thing is not the only thing he has screwed up in recent times. The situation with Jose was entirely his doing. He didn't analyse the makeup of our squad and analyse the situation at Chelsea and United and consider the possibility of it not being a good fit. Not only that but he managed to give an unemployed man ridiculous leverage in his contract.

However the big mistake he has made recently is how he approached sacking the man. He waited until Champions League football was out of reach to make the decision. We still had it within our grasp and he waited and waited on it, this has cost the club the opportunity to fight for top4. This has cost the club the possibility of that revenue stream, the possibility of that potential ace up the sleeve when negotiating naming rights.

Speaking of naming rights, how is that going to go with our reputation recently taking a dent, why have we missed out on over a years worth of revenue looking for a deal which may not exist all the while Tottenham as a club look a worse and worse brand to pay eye watering sums week on week.

I question how we're going to be able to work with the other clubs in world football with Levy at the helm now, I wonder what it's done to our reputation on that front.

For me; if we can't find owners with a decent ethical background and are thusly stuck with ENIC, it's time for Daniel to stop being the face of the operation and retreat to the shadows, he can not be the footballing face of this club. We need a new man in charge of that image. I said when he sacked Poch that it felt like the last throw of the dice for Levy. Well look at the glaring errors he's made since that day, it's time for consequence. Nothing rivals this ESL mistake.

Take a bow - absolutely the best post on this site in the last 48 hours IMO. Levy can stay as an owner of the club but the quicker we have a new Chairman and a functional Board, the better for everyone ESPECIALLY the fans.
The fact that he dared used the word 'Governance' in the statement on the withdrawl was almost as big an insult to us as the ESL attempted heist itself! Lets see the minutes of the Board discussion re the ESL decision Daniel....actually, I have them here:-

Opening (and closing) remark from DL re ESL - "$$$$$$$$$$$$"

If he and Lewis had any love for the club or respect for the fans he would have given us the chance buy into the club a long time ago 'a la' the German structure as the existing setup has been shown for what it is, a private equity firm managing an asset (our club) to no-one else's benefit other than their own back pockets.

 

[Saoirse]

There is no potential ethical owner of Tottenham because it is not ethical to have £1,500,000,000 or so lying around to chuck at a footballing vanity project when it could be put to so much greater good in the world. That's money that could be spent on science, research, anti-poverty, but instead we're asking them to spend it on Spurs. Nobody who makes that choice is ethical, so I find that whole idea pointless. My two criteria therefore are a) are they rich capitalist unethical or murderous dictatorship unethical and b) are they any good at running a football club. ENIC "win" on the first criteria, while the second is more dubious but I believe better than *most* (not all) of the alternatives we see at other teams.

 

[mumfordspur]

Joe Lewis had been an excellent custodian of the club and if he were to sell out tomorrow he’d leave the club in a very much better position than found it - with a world class training ground and stadium and with poised to generate the financial resources needed for sustained success.

But for Joe Lewis Spurs could have become an Everton living in the shadow of a more successful (south) London club or an Aston Villa, fading into mid-table obscurity and occasional regulation.

He will sell eventually. He buys assets, waits for them to appreciate and then aims to sell at the top of the market - he sold a Hockney painting for the highest price ever achieved by a work of a living artist.

But we need to be careful what we wish for. There are 2 classes of buyer for Premier League clubs.

First, Americans who want to take money out of the game like the Glazers, the Kroenkes or FSG: I don’t want one of those.

Second, people who want to use football to burnish their image. The worry here is that the most likely buyer is Saudi Arabia that is trying desperately to”sports wash” its image and I don’t want them either!

Thank you Daniel that was an interesting read

 

[RJR1949]

I'm gonna post in here and not the ESL specific thread because I think this situation with Levy is bigger than that.

I'll open by saying that I think that there should be consequences to some of the decisions that Levy has made over the last 18 months. I want to see him held accountable for the choices he has been making.

However I'm pragmatic and when the talk concerns ENIC selling, I can't say I want them to sell until I know who we would be selling to. With the size and valuation of the club as it is now, I analyse the type of people who actually would have the money to buy us and typically people who have that kind of money have made it in questionable ways so I wonder if we're now too big and it'd take a miracle to find an ethically decent owner. If we were in a scenario where those type of possible owners were available then I'd be absolutely banging the drum that ENIC need to leave on the back of this ESL Fiasco.

I think the divide for supports when it comes to Levy/ENIC has always been; Do you think he does the best for Tottenham Hotspur the business or do you think he does the best for Tottenham Hotspur the football club (meaning the fans).

I think the balanced fans among us would have liked to have believed that by doing the best for the business that in turn gives the best possible chance for doing best for the fans, even if it was a long term strategy. In the short term it could be incredibly frustrating but there was a sentiment there that we were betting set up to be best placed to become one of the elite off the pitch now so we could become one of the elite on the pitch.

For me that viewpoint died over this week, this was not a decision made in the best interest of loyal Tottenham supporters. This was purely a business decision looking to extract money from casual fans around the club regardless of their sentiment towards tottenham and with a judgement that we lemmings would just have to go along with it. It was a decision which turned it's back on the ethos of this football club, the ethos of this being a working class sport and the 150 years of footballing traditions in this country. This was about stuffing the Tottenham Turkey even further regardless of what us fans felt about the decisions and the fact we weren't consulted on it should tell you all you need to know on how much they valued our opinion.

I was shocked at how many fans tried to justify it because "Man City and Chelsea". I thought we loved the moral high ground we held over these clubs? Yes we want the owners to invest but not at the expense of having sport washing, I thought we loved that our stadium meant we were going to grow organically. Instead people had an attitude of well if you can't beat em, join em and decided that there wasn't ever a possibility that Levy could actually show integrity and stand by the game he pretends he was a fan of as a boy.

He built us a giant stadium, a stadium we all love, we all miss going to. A stadium we hope will lead us to a bright future but Levy can not use that stadium to justify the greed that was signing up to this closed league. Let's not forget something, not a single fan asked that this new stadium be built for a billion quid. Not a single Spurs fan asked for it to also have an NFL pitch, a sky walk, all these fancy bits added on. Not a single one of us demanded that of him. That was his decision and his decision alone. We were happy for it but on the basis that we wouldn't sell our soul to fund it and that he could carefully manage the debt so it didn't cripple the football club. If he is now telling us that he had to make this decision because of the stadium debt then he has colossally fucked up. If he built this stadium and didn't prepare for every worst case scenario, every eventuality even if nobody saw a pandemic coming, he fucked up because he was the one who made the choice to build this stadium at such an expense. He could have built a stadium at a more manageable cost which was the plan in the first place. We're all hoping his masterplan works out for the best with the stadium, that it brings it unrivalled revenue and that we can go back to calling him a genius for doing it and not crippling the club with debt but right now it looks like if he needs to try and ruin English football because of the decision he made then he fucked up big time and it's on him and it's no good crying oh but the stadium when he was the one that made the choices he did with the stadium.

This ESL thing is not the only thing he has screwed up in recent times. The situation with Jose was entirely his doing. He didn't analyse the makeup of our squad and analyse the situation at Chelsea and United and consider the possibility of it not being a good fit. Not only that but he managed to give an unemployed man ridiculous leverage in his contract.

However the big mistake he has made recently is how he approached sacking the man. He waited until Champions League football was out of reach to make the decision. We still had it within our grasp and he waited and waited on it, this has cost the club the opportunity to fight for top4. This has cost the club the possibility of that revenue stream, the possibility of that potential ace up the sleeve when negotiating naming rights.

Speaking of naming rights, how is that going to go with our reputation recently taking a dent, why have we missed out on over a years worth of revenue looking for a deal which may not exist all the while Tottenham as a club look a worse and worse brand to pay eye watering sums week on week.

I question how we're going to be able to work with the other clubs in world football with Levy at the helm now, I wonder what it's done to our reputation on that front.

For me; if we can't find owners with a decent ethical background and are thusly stuck with ENIC, it's time for Daniel to stop being the face of the operation and retreat to the shadows, he can not be the footballing face of this club. We need a new man in charge of that image. I said when he sacked Poch that it felt like the last throw of the dice for Levy. Well look at the glaring errors he's made since that day, it's time for consequence. Nothing rivals this ESL mistake.

The club did not need to join the franchise league to pay for the stadium.

The interest payable on the club’s pre-COVID debt was £17m a year with no repayments due for 15 years. This amount could be easily covered by the additional revenues to be generated by bigger crowds for Spurs games and leasing out the stadium for other events.

The reason for joining the franchise league was greed not necessity.

 

[Danfunkel]

What we thinking. JL finally going to cash in or not?

Could only see it really being Lewis or Kroenke.

 

[Shadydan]

What we thinking. JL finally going to cash in or not?

Could only see it really being Lewis or Kroenke.

That's has to be John Henry, Liverpool fans are relentless like that.

 

[allatsea]

What we thinking. JL finally going to cash in or not?

Could only see it really being Lewis or Kroenke.

The problem is the clubs will all have gone down significantly in value now the lure of something such as the ESL has now gone for very many years. No owner will now pay a full price to buy a top PL club as there is no easy route to making significant gains in the foreseeable future.

 

[whitesocks]

Joe Lewis has made it clear the club is up for sale for years.
But it won't be cut price.

 

[Tyler24durden]

Will be kroenke or fsg (John Henry) in my opinion.

no way levy gives up control, he will needing dragging out of spurs kicking and screaming.

 

[allatsea]

Joe Lewis has made it clear the club is up for sale for years.
But it won't be cut price.

I wonder what the situation is if he dies ?

 

[carmeldevil]

I wonder what the situation is if he dies ?

His daughter Vivienne Lewis Silverton will take over.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

If you don’t understand or appreciate what is going on here or still think Levy has the best interests of the fans at heart please just listen to this podcast from the Tottenham Hotspur Supporters Trust, their meetings with Levy and his response to the governance points etc, it’s disgraceful:

‎THSTOfficial's Podcast: THSTOfficial EP.10 - European Super League plans on Apple Podcasts

‎Show THSTOfficial's Podcast, Ep THSTOfficial EP.10 - European Super League plans - 20 Apr 2021

podcasts.apple.com