ENIC...

[LeParisien]

I don't know why people are struggling to name better owners than Levy. I mean I don't even know much about owners outside of Spurs but even I know there's at least 2 owners in the prem who have created a structure which has allowed their teams to thrive.

Have FSG at Liverpool not came in and in less time, implemented a boardroom which has seen the club restore itself to the very top of the game. They've completely revitalised their transfer committee which has over the last few years arguably been the best in the world, one which identified Klopp as the man to lead the team, Look at the players they've signed. Look at the money they've made from selling players, Michael Edwards is the absolute best in the business when it comes to player transfers.

They've managed to build a world class team, they've won the top trophies, before Covid they broke a couple of revenue and profit records despite the outlay on wages and players, they've shown a willingness to grease the wheels with agents if it means they can land the missing pieces. They've also invested in new infrastructure recently building new training facilities. They've also shown a willingness to take on more investment which should benefit their club during the covid era.

The only criticism you can throw their way is the ESL debacle which Levy himself was involved in, so if we're talking about being better than Levy and their both tarred with that brush then FSG are out in front in terms of the structure they've put in place to thrive on the pitch, whoever the team is behind Klopp in the boardroom seem to know what they're doing when it comes to knowing what type of manager they wanted, what type of players to target, there seems to be a lot of football knowledge there.

The other is the structure at Leicester, I mean the original owner passed away and the club still didn't skip a beat. They have relatively consistently over the last 5/6 years performed way above their stature. They have a structure in place in that boardroom which has allowed them to excel at player recruitment and source some excellent talent at low prices, they've shown a willingness to sell their star players at the right price and every time they've sold a top player they have managed to reinvest that money and continued to progress. They have won the big trophy which we haven't, continued to be around the champions league places, reached a domestic final. They have also built an absolutely top tier training ground which rivals ours.

So yeah, of course nobody can rival what Levy has done with the stadium, unfortunately due to Covid he will have to wait to see if it's the great equaliser but I find it difficult to believe that you can argue that these two ownerships haven't better implemented a structure for what happens on the pitch which indicates they have a clear ethos for what they want their team to be doing on the pitch, a structure which has allowed both clubs to sell players and know exactly what targets to identify to push them forward on the pitch.

I mean there's other teams across europe who relative to their structure have a clear identity on the pitch which allows them to punch well above their weight, teams which constantly have to sell players and yet still continue to perform admirably, they perform extremely well, win trophies fairly regularly especially compared to us in their respective leagues. I think those clubs you could argue are pound for pound performing better than we are considering we're the 8th richest club in world football.

I mean I'll give you a reason as to why I think these owners are a clear improvement when it comes to Levy when it pertains on the pitch (again when it comes to infrastructure, he may well be peerless).

I think one big issue with Spurs fans is we are absolutely adverse to the idea of selling one of our star players. The reason for that in my opinion is a lack of faith on the owners ability to use the money raised from selling said players and identifying clear targets which fit into footballing approach we are trying to consistently implement.

Let's put it this way, If we were to sell Son for 80 million, do you think the owners of Spurs have done enough in the past to ease fans fears that they won't waste the money and use it poorly? However if Son was sold by dortmund for 80 million, by Leipzig, by Athletico, by Leicester or by Liverpool do you think their fans would have the same level of concerns for how that money would be implemented or do you think their fans based on the experience of the way their owners invest based on the clear plan they have in place would have significantly less anxiety of the situation.

I mean have we not seen that the clubs I've just mentioned, consistently hire managers, hire players which fit a certain mould that they're trying to work from? Where as we went from a possesion based, attack minded manager who built a squad in that image to hiring a manager the complete antithesis of that. Whether you think Poch's time was up was irrelevant to the fact that we chose to hire a manager based on reputation rather than based on a structure to where successive managers can thrive. I mean we're course changing again. How can we possibly suggest that when it pertains to this particular area that clearly these owners are not doing a better job of implementing a structure which means relative to their stature they're performing significantly better than we are relative to our stature in the game.

Some really great points here and I thank you for engaging thoughtfully.

Liverpool’s owners have done a really good job. One of the things that stands out is how well they’ve sold players. In EUROS they have sold Sakho for 28m, Coutinho for 135m, Solanke for 21m, Ward for 14m, and Brewster for 26m. None of these players has really lived up to those price tags so they’ve done really well moving them on and reinvesting. The only player that might be a mistake is Ings. When you compare that with some of our players that should have been moved on, Liverpool have done really well.

I think one important contextual factor missing is that FSG were buying a club that had been in two champions league finals in the previous 5 years, winning one of them. They were sleeping giants with revenue 60% higher than ours when FSG took over in 2010. So the fact FSG have achieved more success on the pitch in the last decade than Enic have at Tottenham is normal.

One club whose success is abnormal is Leicester. I agree they’re really well run. Their footballing decisions have been spot on and they’ve done a brilliant job although their club is not in as good a position as ours. We have greater financial clout and that will always pay off in the long term.

Fundamentally, there are some clubs who have great owners. Liverpool and Leicester are good examples of that. We belong in that bracket. The on pitch success has been lacking but critics have to acknowledge the strategy.

1) First, build a world class infrastructure and increase revenue streams. These are prerequisites for consistent, long term success. No club can succeed in the PL over the long term without these.

2) Get the football side right now we are on a more even footing.

In my view Enic were absolutely right to do it this way around. Remember that Liverpool’s owners joined the club on stage 2. And Leicester’s performance will revert to the mean over time.


That being said, 1 is now complete so if 2 does not follow in the next 5 years then I will be with people wondering if change is necessary. However the signs are positive in terms of investment and it is premature to call for change when so much time and money has gone Into building the foundations NECESSARY for long term success.



@[email protected] ^^ for you too.

 

[wrd]

Well, for my part, i'm assuming we were being asked to name names as to who to replace him with so i'm not looking at current owners. But yeah, I think the examples you offer up are spot on. There are clubs who are just as well run and from a football perspective, i'd argue that under those, we'd be doing a lot better on the pitch. There's this massive assumption that Levy is irreplaceable. He's a good businessman, if we want one of those to replace him with they are actually probably two a penny relatively speaking and even if you put Levy in the top bracket of those, there would still be a number of people capable of doing what he's done.

His big failure is on the football side. We all know that. Who would be better? Fuck knows and how could you know. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't want him gone. It's truly ridiculous.

Ah yeah I didn't see the question as that because as you've said in the thread, it's near impossible to name new owners not currently in football because with any potential new owners we don't know their sporting credentials and we have to assume no current owner in the sport has plans to sell their club to buy a new one. So I took the question as which owners are doing a better job of running their football club that you wish you could run yours.

 

[andrewt]

Exactly this.

@LeParisien keeps droning on about naming Levy replacements who would be better. That argument is so fundamentally flawed because football executives aren’t like managers or players. There isn’t a pool of known quantities. We’re not going to replace Levy with another PL executive. Asking fans to name Levy replacements is futile because in the same way we didn’t know who Daniel Levy was before he took over at Spurs, we likely won’t know anything about who any hypothetical replacement is.

I’ve always given Levy his credit. When the stadium opened I posted here that it will forever be his legacy and I still believe that. I actually don’t think he should be replaced because he’s doing a great job on the business side.

The football side is a whole different matter. On that side, he’s failing. He has been for at a minimum the last three years.

I want Levy to step away from the football side. He can continue to run Tottenham Hotspur the company. But he needs to allow someone to come in and run the football side. Given them a budget to work with and let the manager, DoF, youth coaches, recruitment staff etc work within that budget to achieve best results on the pitch.

Levy is not a football man. He may be a football fan but he’s not a football man in the way that Rangnick, Campos, Orta, Paul Mitchell, Michael Edwards, Monchi etc are.

We need a DoF to give the football side some direction. To decide on a philosophy for success that this club is going to pursue and decide on managers, and players to fit within that philosophy. To put a robust recruitment and scouting system in place so that we’re always tracking players that fit within our model. We need a DoF and a manager to manage the squad and identify when players need to move on - an area that we’ve been poor in. Levy cannot do this role because he’s not capable. Not because he’s incompetent but because it’s not his skill set.

Let the DoF run the playing side and Levy can continue do what he does best to grow the company and the brand, secure sponsorships to increase revenue etc etc.

Whilst I agree with many of your points, I think that when you say and I'm paraphrasing "how could we the be expected to know who the men are would be capable of running the club"

It shows how little we all know about how our or any of the other clubs operate internally, Yet we all seem to have the answers of what our chairman/board should and shouldn't do and what they have and haven't done

Not having a go at you at all mate just made me think!

 

[LeParisien]

Ah yeah I didn't see the question as that because as you've said in the thread, it's near impossible to name new owners not currently in football because with any potential new owners we don't know their sporting credentials and we have to assume no current owner in the sport has plans to sell their club to buy a new one. So I took the question as which owners are doing a better job of running their football club that you wish you could run yours.

The question was very explicitly NOT who can realistically replace Enic. A&C is purposely obfuscating - he’s too smart not to understand the very clearly expressed points out to him. Either that or he’s got me on ignore.

The question was simple - name chairmen who have done a better job with the resources at their disposal in world football.

 

[LeParisien]

Whilst I agree with many of your points, I think that when you say and I'm paraphrasing "how could we the be expected to know who the men are would be capable of running the club"

It shows how little we all know about how our or any of the other clubs operate internally, Yet we all seem to have the answers of what our chairman/board should and shouldn't do and what they have and haven't done

Not having a go at you at all mate just made me think!

Bang on - exactly the point I have made.

Right I’m out of here until the evening otherwise it will become like the Mourinho thread

 

[wrd]

Some really great points here and I thank you for engaging thoughtfully.

Liverpool’s owners have done a really good job. One of the things that stands out is how well they’ve sold players. In EUROS they have sold Sakho for 28m, Coutinho for 135m, Solanke for 21m, Ward for 14m, and Brewster for 26m. None of these players has really lived up to those price tags so they’ve done really well moving them on and reinvesting. The only player that might be a mistake is Ings. When you compare that with some of our players that should have been moved on, Liverpool have done really well.

I think one important contextual factor missing is that FSG were buying a club that had been in two champions league finals in the previous 5 years, winning one of them. They were sleeping giants with revenue 60% higher than ours when FSG took over in 2010. So the fact FSG have achieved more success on the pitch in the last decade than Enic have at Tottenham is normal.

One club whose success is abnormal is Leicester. I agree they’re really well run. Their footballing decisions have been spot on and they’ve done a brilliant job although their club is not in as good a position as ours. We have greater financial clout and that will always pay off in the long term.

Fundamentally, there are some clubs who have great owners. Liverpool and Leicester are good examples of that. We belong in that bracket. The on pitch success has been lacking but critics have to acknowledge the strategy.

1) First, build a world class infrastructure and increase revenue streams. These are prerequisites for consistent, long term success. No club can succeed in the PL over the long term without these.

2) Get the football side right now we are on a more even footing.

In my view Enic were absolutely right to do it this way around. Remember that Liverpool’s owners joined the club on stage 2. And Leicester’s performance will revert to the mean over time.


That being said, 1 is now complete so if 2 does not follow in the next 5 years then I will be with people wondering if change is necessary. However the signs are positive in terms of investment and it is premature to call for change when so much time and money has gone Into building the foundations NECESSARY for long term success.



@[email protected] ^^ for you too.

Yeah I appreciate that FSG were buying a bigger club than ours which is why they've been able to do a better job on the revenues but as you and I have both said when it comes to the on the pitch stuff such as buying and selling players, hiring managers with a certain philosophy they're second to none. I think FSG are doing a better job than us in terms of fighting above their stature because they managed to create a set of circumstances at the club where they were able to go toe to toe with a football club in Man City which has unlimited resources which comes from questionable sources.

My belief would be that given the acumen that FSG have shown in developing Liverpool to a club who not only competes with teams with more resources than them but actually betters them, I believe they'd similarly have us punching above our stature on the pitch moreso than what currently have but it'd be relative to our stature. My key point would be this; If FSG were in the position we were with Poch for example, I don't think they have the wool pulled over their eyes by Jose the way Levy was. I think they'd have a managerial target in mind which fit within their structure. My other point would be if they raised 60 million for selling Kyle Walker, they'd have a better set up in place to find a suitable replacement and not have the fans on the forum still ruing to this day that Kyle Walker wasn't adequately replaced.

In terms of the way you lay out, I completely agree with you on the strategy and it's a strategy that I am on board with, to value the long term of the club by prioritising building the stadium at the possible expense of investment on the pitch because the expenditure now on the stadium could lead to profits which we can benefit from for decades.

I understand that and agree with that. My question would be; Why did that have to mean that we seem to completely ignore setting up the structure for what happens on the pitch or perhaps to better phrase it why did we allow it to stagnate?

My point being that whilst yes, it's understandable that investment on the pitch may suffer, why have we not put a clear structure in place in terms of the boardroom staff which back the manager up to create a clear set up for the way we wish to approach on the field endeavours?

Our transfer committee is not on the level of Liverpool's or Leicester, we don't have a clear footballing strategy to which we source managers to fit within that structure. It seems to me that the entire footballing philosophy is on the shoulders of the manager and the evidence I'd point to for that is again that Poch was the entire footballing philosophy of the club and when he was sacked, the entire philosophy did a 180 with Jose and now we're looking to switch back. Poch should have just been the perfect fit for the clubs philosophy not the one defining it.

At the moment with how things are, as you say you're waiting for 5 years, what are the things we are seeing at boardroom level that look like in terms the footballing side we're going to get it right? Are we hoping to land a manager who can carry that entirely on his back? It seems so if we're sniffing around ragnick to be our manager rather than being our DoF.

So on those points, I don't see why the stadium is an excuse for those failures quite frankly and the stadium being done doesn't fix those footballing failings. Yes it'll be great that the stadium will create money to invest but the problem is that we need that money to funnel through a very specific footballing structure to wield success on the pitch.

No greater evidence for that than Poch; who as I said was the footballing philosophy of the club in it's entirety, decided that we were going to change our approach on the pitch and went about spending 100 million on midfielders which is fantastic investment but what it meant was that we were going to have to suffer a difficult transition to where our current squad had players who would not fit that system and thus would not be happy. However I believe if the club had a structure in place to where that change of approach was something agreed through footballing committee of the club, they could have mitigated for that difficult season and known that it was going to cause some issues with the current squad and we could have worked through it. Instead we had a manager who had 1 idea for the future, we had a playing squad not on board with it and chairmen who then hired a manager based on reputation rather than vetting the best candidate to fit within a footballing structure meaning we ended up with somebody whose definitely not the manager you want to make the most out of that 100 million investment the club made.

I can go even further and highlight the failing of the footballing structure there whereby the manager wanted to instantly sell the asset who made up the majority of that 100 million investment and was at odds with the chairmen who was adamant we don't not want to sell because of his view on that asset. Now is that the sort of thing that happens at a club which has a clear structure with all the different entities perfectly aligned? That's before we talk about the chairman and manager being at odds about the likes of selling assets such as Dele and Winks.

Hell even how we approached the summer shows a club that does not have a clear set up in place. We had a manager who wanted to play the lopsided back 4. He decided he wanted Doherty so he could have him act as a wing back and have Ben Davies on the other side basically creating a back 3. The committee then saw an opportunity for a player they had their eye on in Reguilon (which I'm happy with) and purchased him which basically spelt the end for Doherty after one game. Then to further add to that we signed Bale, which for fans was exciting but relative to trying to tactically set up, we've just signed 3 pieces of a puzzle which absolutely do not fit together within the system we were going to play. It looked to me again that the 3 entities who have involvement in the playing side are at odds with eachother, you can see their fingerprints on each of the signings. Jose - Doherty, Hitchen - Reguilon, Levy - Bale. All at odds with eachother. Infact writing this does make me appreciate Hitchen because he can spot a talent quite clearly, we just don't have a system in place which means we have a manager to make the most of some of the talent he's signing.

So as I say my point with all this is that yes, the stadium is fantastic but that is no excuse for the way the footballing side has been left because there's absolutely no reason on the levels I've spoke about at length in this post did these things need to wait for the stadium to be finished. They should be in place like they are at Leicester, Liverpool to take advantage of the fantastic possibilities of the stadium.

I've absolutely made sure that at no point have I complained at the level of investment that ENIC have made because I want people who argue for ENIC to see that not all of us who have issues with ENIC are the type of fan who just complain about lack of money being spent on transfers. The only time I brought up investment was to praise the outlay on the 2 midfielders. Without the structure though, that investment was doomed to fail.

Also @LeParisien on the post you doh'd, I know why you doh'd it but I don't want you to misunderstand, I was just joking because I wrote an extremely lengthy post and then he said there's no point arguing literally seconds after I finished writing it, I wasn't agreeing with the premise of his post on the views of those who defend ENIC.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I see the commanding CB whom Mourinho wants and was wiiling to join us but the little parasite refused th pay the asking price has just won the serie A along with the beat defensive record

You do realise that we were bang in the middle of a pandemic last summer? We were never gonna pay £40m+ for any player. And everything coming out of the club was Mourinho was happy with our CB options and a senior CB was a ‘nice to have’ rather than a requirement. It’s not the clubs fault Mourinho failed to get the most out of the players at his disposal.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

....and if Kane leaves he'll certainly go on to win something. Even if it's an FA Cup or League Cup.

In 2016 when we had a real chance to kick on from pushing Leicester, that was our window of opportunity. What better way to seal off our last ever season in the old WHL than to lift the PL! The message coming out of the club at that time though was basically a very modest and restricted one, suggesting that we would only sign players if they really improved the team. Yet we signed Nkoudou, Sissoko and Janssen?!

At what stage did any of them scream ambition? Wanyama was a solid signing but that was an 'opportunistic' one as his contract was running down. The likes of Zaha, etc would have shown the club' intentions. The message and the actions the club made at the time told you everything, happy to be involved but it's not important to win. That trickles down to the players who don't feel like winning is a priority, they can feel it and either they realise it's the wrong club to be at (Walker, Rose, Eriksen) or they lack the ambition to really push the club - or they aren't good enough anyway.

The 2017 window was probably worse as selling Walker but not demanding Sancho as part of the deal really made us look like we were bending over and letting the bigger clubs take our best assets - even if Poch wanted him out we needed to come out of that deal with the upper hand. Yet we did what Levy always does, spend half of it on a replacement who isn't of the same level as the previous one and buy cheaper alternatives in other areas of the squad too. A more ambitious club would have bought the best potential RB out there (Perreira, Cancelo) ....and there's Llorente...scrambling around on the last day of the window.

Those were the moments the club needed to put on their big boy pants and prove they were serious. Make a statement of intent, show he players and others watching that your intention is to win.

Those examples you gave all do that - although City & PSG are bankrolled which is extremely difficult to compete with - but we certainly had our moment to show we were serious.

Well even someone I forgot to add on my list
.. Kieran Trippier currently sitting top of la liga with 4 games to go. And Atletico don't spend like the big 2 there.

As you mentioned there have been times when we could have really pushed on and didn't, the window when HR was managing us and we signed Nelson and Saha on the cheap.

Also when we did qualify for the CL and had the incredible midfield of Modric, Bale, Van Der Vaart, and Lennon. All we needed was a half decent striker and we would have been a force. We messed around all summer and were left with Crouch, who with all due respect should have been a plan B of the bench for us. Luis Suarez was still at Ajax at the time and would have been the obvious choice. But we always settle and never really go for it when needed.

Everything is reactive. Like even buy Ndombele and Lo Celso in Poch's last summer window. It was too late by then as we was already on the slide for not replacing Dembele.

 

[Zaphod]

I think one big issue with Spurs fans is we are absolutely adverse to the idea of selling one of our star players. The reason for that in my opinion is a lack of faith on the owners ability to use the money raised from selling said players and identifying clear targets which fit into footballing approach we are trying to consistently implement.

I’ve often wondered whether it’s a board issue as well. I think that we have been so eager to prove ourselves a ‘big’ club that we’ve hung onto players longer than we should have for fear of the tag ‘selling club’. We’ve kept players that we should have maybe sold just so we can say ‘we won‘t be pushed around anymore’.

Whilst we have undoubtedly progressed from the days when Manchester United would come calling and our players would jump at the chance I think you’re right in that we should be more like Leicester in not being afraid to sell at the right price. It comes down to the recruitment process of replacing those players with the right people and we don’t seem to be as successful as others.

I hear the argument for people like Campos as DoF because he identifies up and coming players who get sold on for huge amounts, but would we as fans have the patience to allow those players to develop for a season or two before they become the sort of player that is sold for huge profits? And once they’ve reached those heights why would we want to sell?

 

[allatsea]

Well even someone I forgot to add on my list
.. Kieran Trippier currently sitting top of la liga with 4 games to go. And Atletico don't spend like the big 2 there.

As you mentioned there have been times when we could have really pushed on and didn't, the window when HR was managing us and we signed Nelson and Saha on the cheap.

Also when we did qualify for the CL and had the incredible midfield of Modric, Bale, Van Der Vaart, and Lennon. All we needed was a half decent striker and we would have been a force. We messed around all summer and were left with Crouch, who with all due respect should have been a plan B of the bench for us. Luis Suarez was still at Ajax at the time and would have been the obvious choice. But we always settle and never really go for it when needed.

Everything is reactive. Like even buy Ndombele and Lo Celso in Poch's last summer window. It was too late by then as we was already on the slide for not replacing Dembele.

Didn’t AM pay over 100 million euro for some lad from Portugal ?

 

[dontcallme]

I’ve often wondered whether it’s a board issue as well. I think that we have been so eager to prove ourselves a ‘big’ club that we’ve hung onto players longer than we should have for fear of the tag ‘selling club’. We’ve kept players that we should have maybe sold just so we can say ‘we won‘t be pushed around anymore’.

Whilst we have undoubtedly progressed from the days when Manchester United would come calling and our players would jump at the chance I think you’re right in that we should be more like Leicester in not being afraid to sell at the right price. It comes down to the recruitment process of replacing those players with the right people and we don’t seem to be as successful as others.

I hear the argument for people like Campos as DoF because he identifies up and coming players who get sold on for huge amounts, but would we as fans have the patience to allow those players to develop for a season or two before they become the sort of player that is sold for huge profits? And once they’ve reached those heights why would we want to sell?

Any examples of players we have held onto but should have sold?

 

[wrd]

I’ve often wondered whether it’s a board issue as well. I think that we have been so eager to prove ourselves a ‘big’ club that we’ve hung onto players longer than we should have for fear of the tag ‘selling club’. We’ve kept players that we should have maybe sold just so we can say ‘we won‘t be pushed around anymore’.

Whilst we have undoubtedly progressed from the days when Manchester United would come calling and our players would jump at the chance I think you’re right in that we should be more like Leicester in not being afraid to sell at the right price. It comes down to the recruitment process of replacing those players with the right people and we don’t seem to be as successful as others.

I hear the argument for people like Campos as DoF because he identifies up and coming players who get sold on for huge amounts, but would we as fans have the patience to allow those players to develop for a season or two before they become the sort of player that is sold for huge profits? And once they’ve reached those heights why would we want to sell?

Yeah my view on selling players has started to change ever since what happened with Eriksen compared to what Liverpool did with Coutinho. I think you're right we have some insecurities when it comes to the idea of being a selling club.

The way I see it now is that we have to look at things differently. We have to acknowledge where we are in the food chain and what our approach has to be dependant on where we are in the food chain. I think we were scarred by what we did when we sold Berbatov, Carrick and the terrible replacements we got.

However you look at what we did when we sold Modric; we signed Lloris, Vertonghen and Dembele. Now to me we have sold a world class player but we have greatly improved our team. I think what we need to look at going forward is the possibility of being willing to sell players particularly abroad but even if say City come calling and they make an offer which is too good to turn down but it has to be in the knowledge that the club knows how to invest that money to make the team better.

Let's say for example we were given an offer to sell Son for 80 million, if we knew we could turn that money into a winger who could develop over 2 seasons to replace son but also it allowed us to sign a CB and another midfielder thus making our team overall better than when we had Son then that's great business.

The tricky part is knowing when to sell and when not to sell and moving up the ladder, the eventual goal should be that you move up the ladder to the point where you're able to sell your lesser talents to other clubs to make the profits meaning you no longer need to sell your best assets until they end up on the decline. Examples of this would be Real Madrid selling the likes of Di Maria and Morata, Chelsea selling Mata etc.

 

[Japhet]

I’ve often wondered whether it’s a board issue as well. I think that we have been so eager to prove ourselves a ‘big’ club that we’ve hung onto players longer than we should have for fear of the tag ‘selling club’. We’ve kept players that we should have maybe sold just so we can say ‘we won‘t be pushed around anymore’.

Whilst we have undoubtedly progressed from the days when Manchester United would come calling and our players would jump at the chance I think you’re right in that we should be more like Leicester in not being afraid to sell at the right price. It comes down to the recruitment process of replacing those players with the right people and we don’t seem to be as successful as others.

I hear the argument for people like Campos as DoF because he identifies up and coming players who get sold on for huge amounts, but would we as fans have the patience to allow those players to develop for a season or two before they become the sort of player that is sold for huge profits? And once they’ve reached those heights why would we want to sell?

I think the point with Campos is that he identifies players who go on to be extremely valuable. Whilst he has done that for clubs that lack the resources to hang onto them, it doesn't mean that at a bigger club they'd also be expected to be sold.

 

[dontcallme]

Yeah my view on selling players has started to change ever since what happened with Eriksen compared to what Liverpool did with Coutinho. I think you're right we have some insecurities when it comes to the idea of being a selling club.

The way I see it now is that we have to look at things differently. We have to acknowledge where we are in the food chain and what our approach has to be dependant on where we are in the food chain. I think we were scarred by what we did when we sold Berbatov, Carrick and the terrible replacements we got.

However you look at what we did when we sold Modric; we signed with the money we sold Modric for; Lloris, Vertonghen and Dembele. Now to me we have sold a world class player but we have greatly improved our team. I think what we need to look at going forward is the possibility of being willing to sell players particularly abroad but even if say City come calling and they make an offer which is too good to turn down but it has to be in the knowledge that the club knows how to invest that money to make the team better.

Let's say for example we were given an offer to sell Son for 80 million, if we knew we could turn that money into a winger who could develop over 2 seasons to replace son but also it allowed us to sign a CB and another midfielder thus making our team overall better than when we had Son then that's great business.

The tricky part is knowing when to sell and when not to sell and moving up the ladder, the eventual goal should be that you move up the ladder to the point where you're able to sell your lesser talents to other clubs to make the profits meaning you no longer need to sell your best assets until they end up on the decline. Examples of this would be Real Madrid selling the likes of Di Maria and Morata, Chelsea selling Mata etc.

You mean when Liverpool sold Coutinho having received a huge offer and we didn't sell Eriksen when there wasn't much interest? Not sure they are comparable.

 

[Zaphod]

Any examples of players we have held onto but should have sold?

There were rumours that Utd wanted Dier, Eriksen shouldn’t have been allowed to run down his contract.
I admit though - it’s a lot easier with hindsight!

 

[allatsea]

There were rumours that Utd wanted Dier, Eriksen shouldn’t have been allowed to run down his contract.
I admit though - it’s a lot easier with hindsight!

Exactly how do you stop a player from running down his contract If the player refuses to be transferred ?

 

[[email protected]]

Time out...

Can I just take a second to say, @[email protected] (John Weldon) is such a lovely chap.

You are so earnest, kind and respectful, in debate, and even when some responses to you are heated, you remain polite, level-headed, even-tempered and open to being challenged -- even if being challenged in an ornery, bullish way. Whereas others (myself very much included) tend to get rattled and let the 'ol red mist obfuscate our ability to maintain our cool.

But not you. No matter what, you seem to always keep an even keel and remain curious of other perspectives, even if they are incurious or even outright derisive of yours. Says a lot about your demeanor and temperament. Wish I was better at that.

Well done. And I truly mean that. To me, at least, it sets an admirable example of how debate can be passionate, yet remain respectful. And how challenges to opinions we cling to, can be thoughtfully contemplated, without immediately resorting to a cranky, defensive retort or insult. Doesn't mean immediate docile deference. Just means you are patient and willing to listen. You may still disagree. But even then, you still seem to take the time to honor and acknowledge the other person's perspective, as opposed to belittling or dismissing it as something without value. We could use a lot more of that type of approach to discussion in the world right now. I for one, know I can do better.

Okay... that's it.

Time out's over.

Let's get back to debating Baldy, ENIC, Joe Lewis, playing philosophy, transfer stuff, budget management, stadium debt, chairmanships, etc.

Thank you, JS, that's really kind of you! I wish I could claim to always post in the manner you describe, mate.I guess what does unite us on this site, even when it's at it's most divisive, is that we all feel passionately about this football club and desperately want our team to succeed. I suppose that, inevitably that can lead to passions running high, and I've been just as guilty of that in the past, my friend! Of late, I've just been trying not to "post angry". Easier said than done I guess, for all of us, because we're all so invested emotionally. But thank you again for your kind words mate. I hope you and your family are well. Take good care JS, and COYS!

 

[DEFchenkOE]

Didn’t AM pay over 100 million euro for some lad from Portugal ?

Yea, but they also sold Rodri, Lucas Hernandez, and Griezeman for big money in the last few years. So they have just reinvested.

 

[dontcallme]

There were rumours that Utd wanted Dier, Eriksen shouldn’t have been allowed to run down his contract.
I admit though - it’s a lot easier with hindsight!

The problem with Dier was he started off really well for us. He was relatively young and developing. It would have looked very small time to be selling him at the time. But although there were reports of interest from Utd, there's nothing to suggest they made any serious offers for him.

The Eriksen debate has been done to death. He made it perfectly clear he wanted to move to an elite club. But when Barcelona made a move for an attacking midfielder, they came for Coutinho, not Eriksen. Eriksen then had a stomach injury and never got his form to a level to get any interest from the elite for him. If there were no offers then our only other option was to offer him a contract extension. I think we got it right by not doing that.

Hindsight is the key here. Looking back people would have loved us to sell Alii, Dier and Eriksen at a premium time. But if we'd sold Kane and Son we'd be seething. There's no way to predict the future.

 

[sausage]

So..

Eriksen scores the goal today that likely seals the title for Inter.

Walker about to pick up another Premier league winners medal.

Poch sitting top of ligue 1

I don't know why but all of the above is really annoying me. We are so allergic to winning trophies.

Even Skipp is going to get a league winners medal albeit the championship.

This club needs some fundamental changes.

Just to correct this bit that hasn't been challenged - Poch isn't sitting top of Ligue 1; he's actually 2nd.


Also, players like Walker and Eriksen are absolutely implicated in our ability to not having won something; the latter being saved by VAR having almost gifted City the game in the CL semis.

Let's not forget that it isn't anyone but the coach and players who can make the difference in the finals. It's one thing if they were pulling up trees but being let down by overall quality, and it's another when they (Harry included, I'm afraid) take up a spot in the starting XI and put in an exhibition match performance. Seen it for 3 finals in recent years. Eriksen has been a passenger for Inter, too.