ENIC...

[mkkid]

There’s no point arguing with the disciples of Daniel it’s almost like Stockholm syndrome.

 

[wrd]

There’s no point arguing with the disciples of Daniel it’s almost like Stockholm syndrome.

Where was this before I just wrote my dissertation

 

[SUIYHA]

I really hope that Levy releases some sort of autobiography when he steps down. No idea if he's been keeping memoirs, but would be really interesting to hear what REALLY went on behind the scenes with certain things - the Dybala transfer, the 2018 summer transfer window, Mourinho's sacking, the power struggle between Jol and Comolli...

There would obviously be an element of spin to it, but it would be interesting to hear more.

 

[shelfboy68]

There’s no point arguing with the disciples of Daniel it’s almost like Stockholm syndrome.

Don't they get touchy I fully expect when he goes soon it will be something similar to Waco with all his disciples barricading themselves in wailing with blind devotion to their master.

 

[[email protected]]

Hey mate - thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I think that Levy can be criticised absolutely. I just think we should appreciate that things are clearer in hindsight and juggling the complex demands of growing a football club involves trade offs. It’s a hard job.

So to your post - no, that’s not what I’m saying. I am asking people to consider who in world football is a better chairman. In doing so I think people will realise that there are very few people better than Levy. In that case it will not be easy to find someone within the game to do a better job. It is also therefore fanciful to believe someone unconnected to the game will waltz in and do better.

Unless of course they are staggeringly wealthy and willing to plunge large sums of money into the club. The evidence from the real world is that only those who are looking to launder their reputation will do that. Some here have no scruples about bringing in eg the Saudi royal family. I, however, am proud that we’re doing it off our own back. More slowly, for sure, but untainted by dirty money.

Your Mourinho example is a good one. I can easily name 3 coaches (try 20) that would be better for us than Mourinho. Guardiola, Klopp, Conte. And these picks would be thoroughly uncontroversial. Now compare that with the barrel being scraped for chairmen better than levy.

Although actually you’re more likely to hear sarcastic deflection than any serious engagement with the issue.

Thanks for the reply mate! Apologies Le P, looking back I realise I've managed to conflate your post and Buckley's responses to your post. Thank you for clarifying that for me. In uniquely commercial terms, I totally agree with that assessment. I'd genuinely scrape the barrel to name a current chairman that could deliver the type of capital project and infrastructure that our's has. But I guess where our opinions of Levy diverge is expressed in how we view his performance in purely footballing terms. Personally, I'd love to see Levy step aside from the day-to-day footballing decision making, and institute a new footballing structure with perhaps someone like Rangnik at its head. Is that something you'd advocate, mate? Or are you happy with the footballing structure as it exists currently?

 

[yankspurs]

There’s no point arguing with the disciples of Daniel it’s almost like Stockholm syndrome.

Im fairly certain they'll be utterly furious if ENIC sells and we finally win something. Foaming out the mouth angry.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

There’s no point arguing with the disciples of Daniel it’s almost like Stockholm syndrome.

Don't they get touchy I fully expect when he goes soon it will be something similar to Waco with all his disciples barricading themselves in wailing with blind devotion to their master.

Im fairly certain they'll be utterly furious if ENIC sells and we finally win something. Foaming out the mouth angry.

Fellas, come on.........

Try to remember that we are all supposed to support the same club. Whatever each of us might think of Levy or ENIC, we can surely express it without this kind of snidery aimed at our fellow fans?

Edit: @NEVILLEB - I'm genuinely intrigued.......you think snidery aimed at fellow Spurs fans is a good thing? Bizarre.

 

[Coco-1101]

That’s a really bad populist argument. You’re trying to give this a veneer of a freedom of conscience or thought argument. It’s not about that. It’s about whether you wanting Levy gone stacks up.

And all you’re saying is that you’d like some really rich guy, most of whom have never watched a football match, to swoop in and save us like superman. Wonderful strategy.

But the key point which you keep ignoring is that you are being asked to reflect on the fact that we already have one of the very very best in the business. So if the guy you hate is one of the best around then it must be a difficult job and it can’t be easy to find better.

But you keep ignoring that. In fact:

In making money for himself? Yes.
In running club successfully? NO

By success I mean in term of footballing terms(trophies). I call city's and chelsea's owner/chairmen as successful. The same goes for liverpool's owner too. We had Nike deal for 30mil(i guess) and Lpool had for 75mil. That is called success as in making money and winning trophies.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

In making money for himself? Yes.
In running club successfully? NO

By success I mean in term of footballing terms(trophies). I call city's and chelsea's owner/chairmen as successful. The same goes for liverpool's owner too. We had Nike deal for 30mil(i guess) and Lpool had for 75mil. That is called success as in making money and winning trophies.

Liverpool is a far bigger global brand than Spurs. If they have sponsorship deals that are worth double ours, then it is only par for the course.

Plenty of legitimate reasons to berate Levy. That isn't one of them.

 

[Metalhead]

Thanks for the reply mate! Apologies Le P, looking back I realise I've managed to conflate your post and Buckley's responses to your post. Thank you for clarifying that for me. In uniquely commercial terms, I totally agree with that assessment. I'd genuinely scrape the barrel to name a current chairman that could deliver the type of capital project and infrastructure that our's has. But I guess where our opinions of Levy diverge is expressed in how we view his performance in purely footballing terms. Personally, I'd love to see Levy step aside from the day-to-day footballing decision making, and institute a new footballing structure with perhaps someone like Rangnik at its head. Is that something you'd advocate, mate? Or are you happy with the footballing structure as it exists currently?

That's how I feel.

 

[rossdapep]

I really hope that Levy releases some sort of autobiography when he steps down. No idea if he's been keeping memoirs, but would be really interesting to hear what REALLY went on behind the scenes with certain things - the Dybala transfer, the 2018 summer transfer window, Mourinho's sacking, the power struggle between Jol and Comolli...

There would obviously be an element of spin to it, but it would be interesting to hear more.

We may finally learn of the truth behind the 'blue and yellow' and 'cabbages' windows

 

[SpursSince1980]

Thanks for the reply mate! Apologies Le P, looking back I realise I've managed to conflate your post and Buckley's responses to your post. Thank you for clarifying that for me. In uniquely commercial terms, I totally agree with that assessment. I'd genuinely scrape the barrel to name a current chairman that could deliver the type of capital project and infrastructure that our's has. But I guess where our opinions of Levy diverge is expressed in how we view his performance in purely footballing terms. Personally, I'd love to see Levy step aside from the day-to-day footballing decision making, and institute a new footballing structure with perhaps someone like Rangnik at its head. Is that something you'd advocate, mate? Or are you happy with the footballing structure as it exists currently?

Time out...

Can I just take a second to say, @[email protected] (John Weldon) is such a lovely chap.

You are so earnest, kind and respectful, in debate, and even when some responses to you are heated, you remain polite, level-headed, even-tempered and open to being challenged -- even if being challenged in an ornery, bullish way. Whereas others (myself very much included) tend to get rattled and let the 'ol red mist obfuscate our ability to maintain our cool.

But not you. No matter what, you seem to always keep an even keel and remain curious of other perspectives, even if they are incurious or even outright derisive of yours. Says a lot about your demeanor and temperament. Wish I was better at that.

Well done. And I truly mean that. To me, at least, it sets an admirable example of how debate can be passionate, yet remain respectful. And how challenges to opinions we cling to, can be thoughtfully contemplated, without immediately resorting to a cranky, defensive retort or insult. Doesn't mean immediate docile deference. Just means you are patient and willing to listen. You may still disagree. But even then, you still seem to take the time to honor and acknowledge the other person's perspective, as opposed to belittling or dismissing it as something without value. We could use a lot more of that type of approach to discussion in the world right now. I for one, know I can do better.

Okay... that's it.

Time out's over.

Let's get back to debating Baldy, ENIC, Joe Lewis, playing philosophy, transfer stuff, budget management, stadium debt, chairmanships, etc.

 

[rossdapep]

So..

Eriksen scores the goal today that likely seals the title for Inter.

Walker about to pick up another Premier league winners medal.

Poch sitting top of ligue 1

I don't know why but all of the above is really annoying me. We are so allergic to winning trophies.

Even Skipp is going to get a league winners medal albeit the championship.

This club needs some fundamental changes.

....and if Kane leaves he'll certainly go on to win something. Even if it's an FA Cup or League Cup.

In 2016 when we had a real chance to kick on from pushing Leicester, that was our window of opportunity. What better way to seal off our last ever season in the old WHL than to lift the PL! The message coming out of the club at that time though was basically a very modest and restricted one, suggesting that we would only sign players if they really improved the team. Yet we signed Nkoudou, Sissoko and Janssen?!

At what stage did any of them scream ambition? Wanyama was a solid signing but that was an 'opportunistic' one as his contract was running down. The likes of Zaha, etc would have shown the club' intentions. The message and the actions the club made at the time told you everything, happy to be involved but it's not important to win. That trickles down to the players who don't feel like winning is a priority, they can feel it and either they realise it's the wrong club to be at (Walker, Rose, Eriksen) or they lack the ambition to really push the club - or they aren't good enough anyway.

The 2017 window was probably worse as selling Walker but not demanding Sancho as part of the deal really made us look like we were bending over and letting the bigger clubs take our best assets - even if Poch wanted him out we needed to come out of that deal with the upper hand. Yet we did what Levy always does, spend half of it on a replacement who isn't of the same level as the previous one and buy cheaper alternatives in other areas of the squad too. A more ambitious club would have bought the best potential RB out there (Perreira, Cancelo) ....and there's Llorente...scrambling around on the last day of the window.

Those were the moments the club needed to put on their big boy pants and prove they were serious. Make a statement of intent, show he players and others watching that your intention is to win.

Those examples you gave all do that - although City & PSG are bankrolled which is extremely difficult to compete with - but we certainly had our moment to show we were serious.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

I don't know why people are struggling to name better owners than Levy.

Well, for my part, i'm assuming we were being asked to name names as to who to replace him with so i'm not looking at current owners. But yeah, I think the examples you offer up are spot on. There are clubs who are just as well run and from a football perspective, i'd argue that under those, we'd be doing a lot better on the pitch. There's this massive assumption that Levy is irreplaceable. He's a good businessman, if we want one of those to replace him with they are actually probably two a penny relatively speaking and even if you put Levy in the top bracket of those, there would still be a number of people capable of doing what he's done.

His big failure is on the football side. We all know that. Who would be better? Fuck knows and how could you know. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't want him gone. It's truly ridiculous.

 

[KaribYid]

I don't know why people are struggling to name better owners than Levy. I mean I don't even know much about owners outside of Spurs but even I know there's at least 2 owners in the prem who have created a structure which has allowed their teams to thrive.

Have FSG at Liverpool not came in and in less time, implemented a boardroom which has seen the club restore itself to the very top of the game. They've completely revitalised their transfer committee which has over the last few years arguably been the best in the world, one which identified Klopp as the man to lead the team, Look at the players they've signed. Look at the money they've made from selling players, Michael Edwards is the absolute best in the business when it comes to player transfers.

They've managed to build a world class team, they've won the top trophies, before Covid they broke a couple of revenue and profit records despite the outlay on wages and players, they've shown a willingness to grease the wheels with agents if it means they can land the missing pieces. They've also invested in new infrastructure recently building new training facilities. They've also shown a willingness to take on more investment which should benefit their club during the covid era.

The only criticism you can throw their way is the ESL debacle which Levy himself was involved in, so if we're talking about being better than Levy and their both tarred with that brush then FSG are out in front in terms of the structure they've put in place to thrive on the pitch, whoever the team is behind Klopp in the boardroom seem to know what they're doing when it comes to knowing what type of manager they wanted, what type of players to target, there seems to be a lot of football knowledge there.

The other is the structure at Leicester, I mean the original owner passed away and the club still didn't skip a beat. They have relatively consistently over the last 5/6 years performed way above their stature. They have a structure in place in that boardroom which has allowed them to excel at player recruitment and source some excellent talent at low prices, they've shown a willingness to sell their star players at the right price and every time they've sold a top player they have managed to reinvest that money and continued to progress. They have won the big trophy which we haven't, continued to be around the champions league places, reached a domestic final. They have also built an absolutely top tier training ground which rivals ours.

So yeah, of course nobody can rival what Levy has done with the stadium, unfortunately due to Covid he will have to wait to see if it's the great equaliser but I find it difficult to believe that you can argue that these two ownerships haven't better implemented a structure for what happens on the pitch which indicates they have a clear ethos for what they want their team to be doing on the pitch, a structure which has allowed both clubs to sell players and know exactly what targets to identify to push them forward on the pitch.

I mean there's other teams across europe who relative to their structure have a clear identity on the pitch which allows them to punch well above their weight, teams which constantly have to sell players and yet still continue to perform admirably, they perform extremely well, win trophies fairly regularly especially compared to us in their respective leagues. I think those clubs you could argue are pound for pound performing better than we are considering we're the 8th richest club in world football.

I mean I'll give you a reason as to why I think these owners are a clear improvement when it comes to Levy when it pertains on the pitch (again when it comes to infrastructure, he may well be peerless).

I think one big issue with Spurs fans is we are absolutely adverse to the idea of selling one of our star players. The reason for that in my opinion is a lack of faith on the owners ability to use the money raised from selling said players and identifying clear targets which fit into footballing approach we are trying to consistently implement.

Let's put it this way, If we were to sell Son for 80 million, do you think the owners of Spurs have done enough in the past to ease fans fears that they won't waste the money and use it poorly? However if Son was sold by dortmund for 80 million, by Leipzig, by Athletico, by Leicester or by Liverpool do you think their fans would have the same level of concerns for how that money would be implemented or do you think their fans based on the experience of the way their owners invest based on the clear plan they have in place would have significantly less anxiety of the situation.

I mean have we not seen that the clubs I've just mentioned, consistently hire managers, hire players which fit a certain mould that they're trying to work from? Where as we went from a possesion based, attack minded manager who built a squad in that image to hiring a manager the complete antithesis of that. Whether you think Poch's time was up was irrelevant to the fact that we chose to hire a manager based on reputation rather than based on a structure to where successive managers can thrive. I mean we're course changing again. How can we possibly suggest that when it pertains to this particular area that clearly these owners are not doing a better job of implementing a structure which means relative to their stature they're performing significantly better than we are relative to our stature in the game.

Cracking post. Absolutely spot on.

 

[SpursSince1980]

Well, for my part, i'm assuming we were being asked to name names as to who to replace him with so i'm not looking at current owners. But yeah, I think the examples you offer up are spot on. There are clubs who are just as well run and from a football perspective, i'd argue that under those, we'd be doing a lot better on the pitch. There's this massive assumption that Levy is irreplaceable. He's a good businessman, if we want one of those to replace him with they are actually probably two a penny relatively speaking and even if you put Levy in the top bracket of those, there would still be a number of people capable of doing what he's done.

His big failure is on the football side. We all know that. Who would be better? Fuck knows and how could you know. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't want him gone. It's truly ridiculous.

Sometimes I think it may be more of a what as opposed to who. I admit to not fully understanding everything about ENIC biz structure, but I assume Tottenham is the majority of the business. If that is the case, then it is safe to say there isn’t much diversification to fall back on, if one part of the business is struggling. The FSG example is very interesting one. As a conglomerate of diversified interests can be helpful in situations like this. As the other areas of investment can help prop up a laggard that has been hit by an unexpected financial crisis.
Our ownership situation is a bit tricky, in that all their eggs are in the Spurs basket. Then again, I could be wrong and that it may not matter much anyway.

 

[shelfboy68]

Fellas, come on.........

Try to remember that we are all supposed to support the same club. Whatever each of us might think of Levy or ENIC, we can surely express it without this kind of snidery aimed at our fellow fans?

Mate we do all support the same club and want the same things, but I have said before that these debates over levy go around in circles.
Nobody wins as fellow posters provide good reasons for and against, it all depends on what side of the fence your on.
?

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Mate we do all support the same club and want the same things, but I have said before that these debates over levy go around in circles.
Nobody wins as fellow posters provide good reasons for and against, it all depends on what side of the fence your on.
?

Completely agree, mate.

And I fully respect, understand and sympathise with both sides of the debate. Overall, I think that Levy has done a brilliant job in incredibly challenging circumstances but, unless he has some kind of Damascene conversion, it is time that he stepped down or left altogether.

What I can't abide, and what none of us should accept from other Spurs fans or from ourselves, is the kind of descent into contempt for our fellow fans that is evident above.

 

[cookiemonster]

I see the commanding CB whom Mourinho wants and was wiiling to join us but the little parasite refused th pay the asking price has just won the serie A along with the beat defensive record

 

[andrewt]

I think it fair to measure Levy by what he said would happen, to what did happen.
Like the stadium sponsor who would supposedly pay most the cost of building the thing. Normally announced in the early stages of a build, it still hasn't happened. Remember this was one of the reasons the club didn't just beef up some of the existing stands, like liverpool did.

How about the idea that stadium expenses would be totally isolated from our transfer budget?

How about this new way of doing things with the world class academy? Where are all these eager talents? It has produced just Harry Winks so far.

Then we have the continual sacking of managers. Some certainly didn't deserve it. And at peculiar times like in the middle of a game or a week before a final. Doesn't seem that the selection process is too thorough and the sackings seem more in rage at times.

This is before we consider him nearly throwing our premiership membership away with the superleague.

I've probably forgotten half of it, but there certainly is a case to answer.

Harry kane says ?