Euro U21 Championship 2015

[nightgoat]

That team does look a beauty for u21s football.

Our ethos and mentality on youngsters and their tournaments, suck. There is nothing better than seeing a team grow together, if that team could have played together for the last year/ 2 years, it would easily challenge for a place in the final.

But that will never happen as the managers of Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea would never allow it to.

 

[Main Man]

I disagree that the players are useless - some need development, but being under 21's, thats to be expected, however, there is no freedom to actually play football in how the coaches and managers are telling the players... tactically niave...

The whole FA needs resructuring, not just the managers - it's all political. We talk about FIFA being politically managed, but the FA are just as bad with their yes men and silly choices.

Although I agree with what you are suggesting, the youth development side of the FA is actually unrivaled by any country in the world. We are the best performing teams up until u18s and it is then when the FA don't have a clue.

I can actually excuse them for this though. How do we compromise (arguably the best) the most competitive and money-driven League in the world with the need to breed our young players in our highest League?

Make no mistake about it, England produced teenagers just as good as any other country, if not even better.

 

[nightgoat]

Another one of those players is Chalobah (5) who arguably had his best game of the tournament and was still really poor. I remember seeing this kid play for England against Scotland at u16s, and this kid had it all. It is an absolute travesty he has not built on that potential one bit. But judging from his general attitude and work-rate on the pitch, I think he needs to take a long hard look at himself as opposed to blaming Chelsea and lack of opportunities there etc. My biggest disappointment was the fact that Southgate persisted with a player who contributed nothing to the cause.

Chalobah epitomises what's wrong with the set up. He was awful against Portugal, yet kept his place, was awful against Sweden, yet kept his place. He's played nearly 100 senior games, but not once for the team who actually own him, and probably never will, yet he says he wants to stay at Chelsea for his whole career.

 

[Riandor]

But that will never happen as the managers of Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea would never allow it to.

Then they will never play for England.
They can continue to win their fat pay checks, but its about time England put itself first from the ground up.

I would rather this miserable lot went through into the senior team then the likes of Wilshere, Barkley or Sterling who seemingly show nothing but contempt (or are advised not to). If the players thought their England careers were at jeopardy and they cared about that, then we would see a shift, whereby players would tell managers they are going to these tourneys or join clubs where their progress through to the WC and Euros isn't blocked.

We would soon see where people's loyalties lie, money or prestige.

 

[beats1]

For once I agree with Lawro too.

Do the players want to play for England? Then go to the U21 tournaments. Win them. Take that mentality through into the senior team.

No U21 player should be exempt from being picked, if that player refuses, then they don't get picked for the senior team. The game is a team game, skilful individuals do not win tournaments, teams do. Build a team ethic and do not promote this shambolic better than thou attitude.

Barkley, Shaw, Sterling, Oxlaide-Chamberlain should ALL of been called up as none of them have done enough for me to warrant automatic starts in the England senior team and should still be learning their trade at all levels.

As I have mentioned many times, U21 footy is about playing footballers who aren't representing their national team. Its about making the pool stronger not winning a pointless tournament with an overly strong team.

Everybody wants to be like Spain and Germany and cites their success at winning the tournament for the national success but then at the end of the day people don't like not winning the thing and overlook that both german and spanish teams didn't include their youngsters that had already made the step up to the national team that were still eligible like Marin, Busquets and etc.

The reason why england didn't do well is that they played a certain style throughout the qualifiers and reverted back to a style that didn't suit the team, not to mention poor selection of the first team and poor squad selection.

IMO shelvey, Dier and one or two others.

Some people have said that these players wouldn't make in it the premier league bar one or two, yet it was a squad that included Ings, Berahino, Stones, Kane, Jenkinson, Ward-Prowse and Chambers. All linked with big moves or play for top clubs. Not to mention several other players

Now for me, a player who doesn't play for his club shouldn't be playing for his national team. So I have no idea how the likes of Chalobah continued to get picked, not to mention RLC getting picked in the first place over the likes of Dier it seemed. I guess it had nothing to do with the assistant manager being a chelsea coach! Especially since at least one chelsea player played in every game, which is surprising.

For me the team should of been

Kane
Pritchard -------------------------------- Redmond
Carroll Ward-Prowse
Shelvey
Garbutt Dier Stones C/J
Butland​

C/J=Chambers or Jenkinson

Personally I don't think Butland should be starting either tbh.

Also taking a strong team hasn't served england well either. The England U20's included Kane, Pritchard, Barkley(the season he was a PL sensation), Ward-Prowse, Stones, Dier and more, yet they couldn't get out of the group stage which included Egypt, Iraq and Chile.

Once again questionable selections of players who dont play and ancient tactics didn't serve england well. Mentality of england is stuck in the stone age and hence why they are struggling.

 

[LSUY]

Southgate: England can win 2022 World Cup

 

[Main Man]

Chalobah epitomises what's wrong with the set up. He was awful against Portugal, yet kept his place, was awful against Sweden, yet kept his place. He's played nearly 100 senior games, but not once for the team who actually own him, and probably never will, yet he says he wants to stay at Chelsea for his whole career.

He has to leave Chelsea permanently this season and get first team football somewhere and go from there.

Do you remember Josh McEachran for them too - what has happened to him? He did really well at Boro, but not sure of how much game time he got at Vitesse etc.

It is startling the number of young player's who are willing to just let their careers sail by.

Ironically - as he is somebody who doesn't deserve first team football - but at least Garbutt has challenged Everton to ensuring he plays each week next season before signing a new deal.

More young players need to take this approach, and the FA should be backing them wholeheartedly.

 

[nailsy]

I've got to agree with @beats1 on this. Players who are already playing for the senior England team regularly shouldn't be playing in an under 21 tournament. If Sterling & Barkley had been selected that would probably leave them facing three consecutive seasons of tournament football (World Cup, U21's, Euro's). Surely young players need a break between seasons?

 

[Riandor]

I'm sorry guys but no.
The 2014 WC team of Germany was won by how many who were also winners in the U21 team?

And if the logic of playing for senior means no need to play U21 why was Kane playing?

As for Germany this time round, they are either getting ahead of themselves or simply aren't going to win. Or perhaps more plausible are simp,y bloody well ahead of us and can move on to blooding individuals in a multitude of ways.

England haven't won sweet FA for what, 31 years? At any level, or at least U21 and up and frankly have been poor in every major tournament.

We need to take it on the chin and send the best players possible and forge a winning squad who know how to play together and how to win together. Chuck them all together once a blue moon and lo and behold they can't play for toffee and don't care, because their club pays their wages.

England won the 66 WC with players who knew how to play together as they were largely from the same club. Germany have won 4 times due to a similar set-up, U21 and few clubs and a coaching mentality that focuses on togetherness and team ethic.

I have watched many a program here in Germany where this was discussed.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

What a fucking sham(e).

I said after the last game that Southgate needed to show some bollocks and intelligence and stick with footballing philosophy. What he did last night was tactically fucking infantile.

His pre-match rhetoric at complete odds with his selections and tactics.

He said he wanted better service to the forwards so he picks the two most unincisive and visionless CM's he has, shrinks the midfield, adds a (ho hum) striker into an area that's now getting even less service because the only two creative, incisive midfielders (Carroll & Hughes) are dropped, and the result was, tediously predictably, that there was much less tempo and service and creativity.

I am so fucking sick of watching and listening to supposed football people (managers, pundits etc) spouting this belief that strikers equals attacking ethos and the more you have the more attacking your strategy.

What the fuck Chalobah was doing out there (in the squad) I have no idea. Or Forster-Caskey for that matter. I'm not going to bleat about who wasn't in that squad that could have been, the biggest thing missing was a coach with the courage of his convictions.

The performances in qualifying and even against Portugal were so much better.

That selection and the performance it inevitably produced took England back to the dark days of all the previous shit that has gone before. When are they going to decide how they want to play, choose coaches that will all work to the same ethos from all ages up, and not revert back to the kind of predictable outdated crap we saw last night.

Really fucking disappointing,

 

[nailsy]

I'm sorry guys but no.
The 2014 WC team of Germany was won by how many who were also winners in the U21 team?

And if the logic of playing for senior means no need to play U21 why was Kane playing?

As for Germany this time round, they are either getting ahead of themselves or simply aren't going to win. Or perhaps more plausible are simp,y bloody well ahead of us and can move on to blooding individuals in a multitude of ways.

England haven't won sweet FA for what, 31 years? At any level, or at least U21 and up and frankly have been poor in every major tournament.

We need to take it on the chin and send the best players possible and forge a winning squad who know how to play together and how to win together. Chuck them all together once a blue moon and lo and behold they can't play for toffee and don't care, because their club pays their wages.

England won the 66 WC with players who knew how to play together as they were largely from the same club. Germany have won 4 times due to a similar set-up, U21 and few clubs and a coaching mentality that focuses on togetherness and team ethic.

I have watched many a program here in Germany where this was discussed.

How can players represent both the seniors and the under 21s though? Both sides play qualifying games in the same week so it's not possible. Or do you just want the likes of Sterling and wiltshire brought into the u21s at tournament time? That isn't really going to foster togetherness if you suddenly drop the players that helped you qualify.

 

[beats1]

I'm sorry guys but no.
The 2014 WC team of Germany was won by how many who were also winners in the U21 team?

And if the logic of playing for senior means no need to play U21 why was Kane playing?

As for Germany this time round, they are either getting ahead of themselves or simply aren't going to win. Or perhaps more plausible are simp,y bloody well ahead of us and can move on to blooding individuals in a multitude of ways.

England haven't won sweet FA for what, 31 years? At any level, or at least U21 and up and frankly have been poor in every major tournament.

We need to take it on the chin and send the best players possible and forge a winning squad who know how to play together and how to win together. Chuck them all together once a blue moon and lo and behold they can't play for toffee and don't care, because their club pays their wages.

England won the 66 WC with players who knew how to play together as they were largely from the same club. Germany have won 4 times due to a similar set-up, U21 and few clubs and a coaching mentality that focuses on togetherness and team ethic.

I have watched many a program here in Germany where this was discussed.

Er no, the guys who the world cup, weren't near the national team before the competition, DO your research, people just see the win and do 2+2=5.

Here is the amount of caps the german team had before they won the competition.
Gk: Neuer - 1 friendly 2 weeks before the competition against UAE - 23
RB: Beck - 3 caps - 22
LB: Boenisch - 0 caps - 22
CB: Boeteng - 0 caps - 21
CB: Howedes - 0 caps - 21
DM: Hummels - 0 caps - 20
CM: Castro - 5 caps but all were given 2 years prior - 22
CM: Khedira - 0 caps - 22
RW: Ozil - 1 cap(12 mins) - 20
LW: Johnson - 0 caps - 21
ST: Wagner - 0 caps - 21

So you saying oh they doing things different NO they aren't. Yet people want to play players who have more caps like Barkley(13 caps) who has more caps combined than the German U21 winning squad which later made up the world cup winning squad.

However as usual the english press and majority of fools are more worried about winning rather than development

 

[Riandor]

Er no, the guys who the world cup, weren't near the national team before the competition, DO your research, people just see the win and do 2+2=5.

Here is the amount of caps the german team had before they won the competition.
Gk: Neuer - 1 friendly 2 weeks before the competition against UAE - 23
RB: Beck - 3 caps - 22
LB: Boenisch - 0 caps - 22
CB: Boeteng - 0 caps - 21
CB: Howedes - 0 caps - 21
DM: Hummels - 0 caps - 20
CM: Castro - 5 caps but all were given 2 years prior - 22
CM: Khedira - 0 caps - 22
RW: Ozil - 1 cap(12 mins) - 20
LW: Johnson - 0 caps - 21
ST: Wagner - 0 caps - 21

So you saying oh they doing things different NO they aren't. Yet people want to play players who have more caps like Barkley(13 caps) who has more caps combined than the German U21 winning squad which later made up the world cup winning squad.

However as usual the english press and majority of fools are more worried about winning rather than development

You are not understanding my point.

Parachuting 7 players in for a tournament is perhaps a little crass, but the argument goes that they shouldn't have probably played that much for the senior team in the first place.

If you are eligible for the U21's then that for me is where your education should be. Kane,sterling, Barkley, wilshere etc... Should have played in the U21s, qualified together and won together and bring THAT experience up with them.

I know my research thank you, I know those German players didn't play for the seniors, why? Because the Germans did exactly what I just said, they trusted in their youth program to make them ready for the senior team as an when was appropriate, and did not pander to the press who clamoured for their inclusion earlier.

And to finish up... Your point about Barkley... 13 caps and what to show for it?
Wilshere, until the last game has done almost sod all in an England shirt.

These players should have played more U21 together. Yes it's water under the bridge now, but I hope this helps set up a system whereby future players are not rushed into the senior team.

I coach a crop of under 10's in a local team, some of which are better than the next age group. We don't push players up even though we could, we keep them together and breed a winning team. When I took over they were losing 11-0, after 6 months we just came third in a regional tournament. The club has a development plan and whilst it isn't mine, it simply shows that even grass roots football in Germany is light years ahead.

EDIT: as for development, at the level of England, the only thing that needs to develop is how to play and win together, you won't get that by shoving players into the senior squad prematurely. You do it by sacrificing the senior team for a bit and focussing on the players coming through. Keep them away from the senior team stress and build a tight knit squad of players who are bursting to show their qualities on the bigger stage. Kane, Barkley, etc dont improve as players by occasionally playing for England, but focus their talents into an U21 team you want to unleash in a few years when it's ripe and ready to do so, well, that to me makes far more sense.

 

[Main Man]

He has to leave Chelsea permanently this season and get first team football somewhere and go from there.

Do you remember Josh McEachran for them too - what has happened to him? He did really well at Boro, but not sure of how much game time he got at Vitesse etc.

It is startling the number of young player's who are willing to just let their careers sail by.

Ironically - as he is somebody who doesn't deserve first team football - but at least Garbutt has challenged Everton to ensuring he plays each week next season before signing a new deal.

More young players need to take this approach, and the FA should be backing them wholeheartedly.

What do you disagree with @Riandor ?

 

[nightgoat]

If we'd taken the likes of Sterling, Barkley and Shaw (and Dier, ffs) we would have been able to put out an extremely good team which, if managed properly would have had a very realistic chance of winning the competition.

Look at the team we put out against Italy and of that starting line up only Kane and Stones will win ten or more senior caps. If you have a starting XI of Butland; Chambers, Dier, Stones, Shaw; Hughes, Carroll; Sterling, Barkley, Pritchard; Kane most of them will be in the squad for the next World Cup. Going to a World Cup where five, six or seven players have won a tournament together would be invaluable.

 

[Riandor]

What do you disagree with @Riandor ?

Absolutely none of it... Sorry, wrong post. I was in a rush (ah the pleasure of having kids and still wanting to debate online). I have removed the rating from your post.
Sorry.

 

[Shanks]

You guys are pretty much saying that same thing, U21's is to develop.

Winning counts as develop, as much as tactical play and understnading your fellow players.

I do agree with Riandor on this though - lets take Barkley for example, he's hardly played for the senior team, apart from a few late substitiions. He would have greater development in the U21's Euro qualifiers and tournament, by actually playing, and doing their best to win...

Unfortunately we have shit management, who seem to have that rabbit in the headlights effect themselves, which seems to show on the pitch as well.

Many players who could play U21's, should play U21's, rather than a few minutes for the mens team, or sat on the bench for the means team.

Much better development, and bringing a youth team though to mens, with the experience of winning something, would be a much better development than losing with shit tactics, just breeding another bunch of bottle jobs.

 

[Main Man]

Absolutely none of it... Sorry, wrong post. I was in a rush (ah the pleasure of having kids and still wanting to debate online). I have removed the rating from your post.
Sorry.

Haha I can relate to that in fairness!

 

[nailsy]

You are not understanding my point.

Parachuting 7 players in for a tournament is perhaps a little crass, but the argument goes that they shouldn't have probably played that much for the senior team in the first place.

If you are eligible for the U21's then that for me is where your education should be. Kane,sterling, Barkley, wilshere etc... Should have played in the U21s, qualified together and won together and bring THAT experience up with them.

I know my research thank you, I know those German players didn't play for the seniors, why? Because the Germans did exactly what I just said, they trusted in their youth program to make them ready for the senior team as an when was appropriate, and did not pander to the press who clamoured for their inclusion earlier.

And to finish up... Your point about Barkley... 13 caps and what to show for it?
Wilshere, until the last game has done almost sod all in an England shirt.

These players should have played more U21 together. Yes it's water under the bridge now, but I hope this helps set up a system whereby future players are not rushed into the senior team.

I coach a crop of under 10's in a local team, some of which are better than the next age group. We don't push players up even though we could, we keep them together and breed a winning team. When I took over they were losing 11-0, after 6 months we just came third in a regional tournament. The club has a development plan and whilst it isn't mine, it simply shows that even grass roots football in Germany is light years ahead.

EDIT: as for development, at the level of England, the only thing that needs to develop is how to play and win together, you won't get that by shoving players into the senior squad prematurely. You do it by sacrificing the senior team for a bit and focussing on the players coming through. Keep them away from the senior team stress and build a tight knit squad of players who are bursting to show their qualities on the bigger stage. Kane, Barkley, etc dont improve as players by occasionally playing for England, but focus their talents into an U21 team you want to unleash in a few years when it's ripe and ready to do so, well, that to me makes far more sense.

In theory I wouldn't be totally against keeping the young players away from the senior squad and allowing them to develop in the youth team.

How rigidly do Germany stick to this plan? Looking at Gotze it seems that he only played a few games for the U21's and already has over 40 caps for the senior team at the age of 23. I think he could still play in the U21 side now couldn't he?

 

[Riandor]

In theory I wouldn't be totally against keeping the young players away from the senior squad and allowing them to develop in the youth team.

How rigidly do Germany stick to this plan? Looking at Gotze it seems that he only played a few games for the U21's and already has over 40 caps for the senior team at the age of 23. I think he could still play in the U21 side now couldn't he?

Well recently they have mixed it up a little, which I think might be down to depth issues as well as some of these guys playing CL football with their respective clubs and I guess, like us with wilshere, there is a belief that if good enough already...

Götze is obviously one of those players that were deemed a bit special, but he was still only a bit part player in the WC because the manager had a philosophy and plan and Götze wasn't quite the right fit/ not ripe enough.

That said his talent meant that you could throw him on and see what happens and lo and behold, he scores a quality goal to win the WC for Germany. But did he become a first name down on team sheet for Bayern and Germany since? Hardly.

He is still learning and Germany have a plan on how they like to play and that sometimes means players like Götze are sacrificed, something the England camp would never do in recent years (you could argue a case for them doing this in the Hoddle years, whether it was a good idea is up for debate).