Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

[Metalhead]

I think the fact we are having the same two debates we had under end of days Poch, Jose and Conte which are; Is it the manager or the board, Do we want entertaining football or successful means that we keep looking at the problem incorrectly.

I think the issue isn't the manager or their style of football. It's that the fans and the board are simply unwilling to accept that in order to get to whatever it is we think we want, that things have to get worse before they get better, that we are too afraid to go through the painful process of that, we are impatient and want immediate gratification because we think we have suffered enough and we are owed some success now.

The evidence though would suggest that we have ended up making the process last longer, more painful in our desire to rush the process. We also are so scared of going through the painful process that we are too unafraid to let go of the other side of things. We hire Conte yet we are too scared to let go off our transfer policy. We back Poch but we are too afraid because he said it will take years to rebuild so we sack him and hire a manager who says he'll get it done quickly.

At what point do we realise that jumping from one extreme to the next is just delaying success further, that we are foolishly thinking we are wasting time if we stick through a painful period yet when you look at other clubs. Liverpool, seemingly Arsenal. They tolerated the growing pains, they tolerated the shouts from impatient fans and certainly Liverpool have been rewarded. Klopp has had 3 tough periods at Liverpool, when he started, just after their big success and earlier this season. With the latter 2, he was doing significantly worse than Poch was, do we think we'd have kept our nerve and been rewarded for doing so? Do we think our club would have tolerated those first few seasons under Arteta to get to what Arsenal are currently doing, their performances were awful to watch but Arteta stuck to his guns now their performances are superb, you learn most from your rivals.

I've made no secret that I absolutely adore Poch, that I felt he shouldn't have been sacked, that he should have been allowed a down season to recover from the champions league and we go again. That I wanted him back after Jose because I love the romanticism of him being the guy to lead us to the promise land. So it probably wouldn't be that hard for me to get over losing Conte if Poch returned, however I am absolutely adamant that if we for once just stuck with a manager through the hard times and took the risk of backing him despite fears of letting go off our policies and we actually allowed the man to feel safe and trusted in his process then we would get a team that is not only successful but is entertaining in it's own right, maybe not in the style of a Harry or Poch team but in it's own manner. I think us fans are unwilling to tolerate what that would entail though to get there though and it is us who will suffer the consequences in my opinion.

That is a very good post.

 

[Jamturk]

Exceptional post and really hits the heart of it.

I stated before that the club were right to fire Poch, because I think it was irreversible, but that could have been avoided if they backed him better.

The next huge mistake was hiring Jose. The next hiring should have been in line with our philosophy. Progressive coach with younger talents, similar to when we hired Poch.

By hiring Jose, we ended up adding a layer of tarmac over a road full of potholes because the older heads needed moving on, yet stayed, and we added players like Doherty and Hojbjerg who don't fit our philosophy.

The mess of the Nuno appointment only compounded matters as we signed more players that fit one philosophy (Gil, Sarr) and others that fit another (Royal) under a coach who is different completely.

So we are backed into a corner and need to hire someone like Conte.

My initial feeling was that Conte was the wrong choice. Not because I don't think he's a fantastic coach but because I wasn't sure about fit. But then, if the club appoints someone like that then you expect assurances to have been made.

I did start to buy into it and was excited when we hired him as we did get messages that Levy had been pushed back and FP was leading things more. If we then invest in that philosophy we can expect good results.

You're right though. You don't get anywhere fast by consistently changing the way you work.

Choose your strategy, structure it accordingly and stick with it through the hard times. After all the hard times are only there to show you how to overcome obstacles and tweaks that may be needed.

You can't simply say "this isn't working" and rip it up at first sign of trouble.

I honestly believe that the board were influenced by the contract situation of Harry Kane when they appointed Jose and Conte. I remember the talk of Kane not winning anything and not willing to go through another project.

Sack Harry Kane!

 

[$hoguN]

The question we are faced with right now is backing Conte, which is totally alien to Levy and requires him to keep well out of the football side, or back Levy, which backing us forever being a project.

for me, it’s time that Levy moves out of the sporting side completely or is moved out of his role by Lewis

 

[Stamford]

I literally said CL run aside and you choose to highlight it anyway?

I never said the first 4 years of Poch weren't good. I was talking about the last 12. Which you have chosen to ignore.

So, again, have you forgotten the last 12 months (CL run aside) of Poch's reign?

The first 5 months under Poch was absolutely dire also. Was as bad as anything served up under Nuno.

 

[Stamford]

Dier: Conte really likes him and plays him pretty much every game
Davies: Conte likes him and extended his contract
Hojbjerg: lol
Emerson: For some reason Conte likes him
Perisic: his transfer
Sessegnon: no reason to think Conte doesn't like him

How is this really an argument?

So because he plays the best of a bad bunch he loves these players? Think about it for two seconds. He knows these players are rubbish and he asked for better and is used to better. The fact that he has to persevere with Dier proves his bloody point.

 

[isaac94]

I mean - he still uses them, praises them pretty much in every conference and most of them had basically 0 links with transfers out of Spurs.
He didn't like Ndombele, Gio or Dele he didn't play them and they left the club. Same as Eriksen or Skriniar for some time at Inter, same as Costa at Chelsea and I'm pretty sure there were many other examples.

I don't think anyone here thinks they are good enough to win titles, but certainly they are good enough to play better football and had better results than we had since October

I mean he has to use them (can't have a complete overhaul in one transfer window, this isn't football manager video game); praising them is the role of a coach, he praised winks before letting him go. 0 links because most of them are not wanted by other clubs (little selling power for the players listed), ndombele, gio especially have quite a lot of pull from other clubs due to there past reputation (also hence why we spent big on them), no club wants to buy the likes of sess, dier, davies, emerson for any real fee, especially for the wages they are on, that speaks more about the level they are at now and our ambition. Also have to factor in the homegrown players criteria, sess, dier, davies especially have that aspect to there advantage, and to our detriment, really

 

[nedley]

Some good stuff in this thread. A question (not sure if it's the right thread but there is an obvious correlation). Irrespective of whether Conte stays or leaves, can anyone make a case for Levy and the board remaining in situ?

Levy.

No.

 

[The Doc]

I really dont see how anyone can make a case for them anymore.

I agree. Just interested in any counter-argument. Is there anyone on here who wants to make a case for retaining Levy and the board? Not concerned with the "how" they are removed bearing in mind status, shareholdings etc, simply about whether anyone thinks he/they deserve more time. Anyone?

 

[isaac94]

Will he be outplayed by Danny Cowley on saturday? I mean he probably can read how to beat Contes team as much as any manager in the PL, but is League One material sufficient to do so?

i mean Cowley's Portsmouth play pretty horrific stuff, focusing on the physical side of the game, they are mid-table in the third division, if we don't beat them comfortably could be the end of Conte

 

[RuskyM]

Literally Konsa, Watkins, Kamara, Digne, Bailey and Mcginn walk into the starting 11 we put out yesterday

When Gerrard was sacked after 11 games, these players were 3 points off the bottom and we were 4 points off top. Since Emery came in, they've gained almost twice as many points as us and the majority of Villa's first team apparently walk into ours. How can this not be an indictment of management?

 

[haslemereyid]

i mean Cowley's Portsmouth play pretty horrific stuff, focusing on the physical side of the game, they are mid-table in the third division, if we don't beat them comfortably could be the end of Conte

I would worry about Wednesday night first……….

 

[Spurzinho]

I mean he has to use them (can't have a complete overhaul in one transfer window, this isn't football manager video game); praising them is the role of a coach, he praised winks before letting him go. 0 links because most of them are not wanted by other clubs (little selling power for the players listed), ndombele, gio especially have quite a lot of pull from other clubs due to there past reputation (also hence why we spent big on them), no club wants to buy the likes of sess, dier, davies, emerson for any real fee, especially for the wages they are on, that speaks more about the level they are at now and our ambition. Also have to factor in the homegrown players criteria, sess, dier, davies especially have that aspect to there advantage, and to our detriment, really

There is definitely some truth to that but at least I could see what Poch was trying to create. It was obvious that certain players didn't seem able/willing to adapt but there was a definite style and system being slowly implemented. My impatience at the time was more to do with Poch's slowness in dropping some of the big earners who clearly had no future. Soldado for example. There was very little doubt though, from me, that if Poch could get past that phase that things would improve dramatically. There was also the fact that the tools Poch needed weren't unrealistic. Young prospects were exactly what he needed and that was exactly the sort of player we have excelled in finding. It was the perfect fit. I don't see any such reason for optimism with Conte. There are no signs for me that the football will get better, there is no sign that the basis of a title winning Conte side already here. There is no chance whatsoever that we'll be able to fund the kind of spending that Conte insists on and what perhaps scares me even more is that when Conte is done here we'll have a very, very old and washed up squad that needs to be completely torn up and we'll probably have very few talented youngsters waiting in the wings because they've all got frustrated and buggered off. Conte is a shot term deal. As a club you've got money to spend (or not) and you're prepared to spend it to win a title. To hell with the consequences. That isn't us. He clearly can't work his magic with what we've got, we can't give him what he needs and so this whole experiment is kinda doomed. Its best to move on before Conte does too much damage.

 

[IamSpurtacus]

north London rivals Arsenal this season with a young squad of players who are still developing is also a thorn in Conte's 'only ready-made teams can succeed' belief,

This is clearly bollocks.

To suggest Arsenal are a bunch of raw young talents coached beyond a level by a project manager is just nonsense.

I've gone through their team (at an airport with too much time on my hands)

Their squad a has a clear pattern 1) They are willing to spend to strengthen, a lot 2) they sign youthful but experienced players from top clubs who improve the squad / team and are PL ready for an elite club 3) they sign experienced players from top clubs who have a history of winning, 4) they incorporate PL-ready youth players, which just reinforces the poverty of our youth set up

They've agreed terms for CL participant Mudryk (likely for 50M) and are in the market for Felix.

The list below is the core of the team currently crushing the PL, largely built by Arteta spending north of 300M...

The players on that list is really what Conte is alluding to when he talks about not "spending 10M" on some mediocre prospect, and needing to sign players who are "ready".

As Deki shows, if you're good enough, and young, he'll play you.

Our younger players, generally, are not good enough or "ready".

We don't sign winners from others clubs, or top performing young players with PL experience - Richi being the exception. We too often sign raw championship players like Sess and Rodon, or that caliber - and it shows.

Richi was refreshing - i hoped it marked a change in approach. It appears this window Levy is reverting to type.

Here's the list (some players left out due to time).

Ramsdale - 24M - PL experienced player
Ben White - 55M - PL experienced player
Gabriel - 25M - Lille - top team in Ligue Un when he was there.
Saliba - 25M - loaned out for several seasons to gain experience before being incorporated
Tierney - 25M - battle tested in the helter skelter of British football and CL at Celtic, and SPL winner
Xhaka - signed before Miguel Potato for 40M from then CL-participating side Gladbach
Odegaard - 30M - signed from Real initially on loan to test the water in the PL.
Partey - 50M, CL finalist and La Liga champion (admittedly leaving midway through the season)
Viera - 30M - CL experienced and league winner with Porto
Zinchenko - 30M - PL winner
Jesus - 50M - PL winner
Smith-Rowe, Saka, Nelson and Nketiah - PL ready/experienced youth players providing first team quality or good squad cover
Martinelli - 7M- outlier, but clearly Jesus was bought because Martinelli alone isn't enough
Tomiyasu - 20M - outlier - good squad option and versatile

 

[Flobadob]

When Gerrard was sacked after 11 games, these players were 3 points off the bottom and we were 4 points off top. Since Emery came in, they've gained almost twice as many points as us and the majority of Villa's first team apparently walk into ours. How can this not be an indictment of management?

I rated these players before, during and after Gerrard’s management. We should have signed Konsa years ago for example

 

[FinnYid]

I would worry about Wednesday night first……….

Well those two might seal his fate seeing it is Arsenal, City, Fulham, City after that. If we fail to beat Palace and lose against Pompey, by start of february we are likely to be quite close to bottom of some 15 game form table and out of both domestic cups heading towards CL exit with Milan coming up next. So guess this week will eventually decide wether Conte has future here or not, even though initial decision probably won't come straight away even if we lose both.

 

[HedgieSpur]

I was at the game yesterday, but deliberately waited for 24 hours to collect my thoughts:

Imo, in order to be successful we need

1. A Sporting Philosophy which then drives :
2. A set of Sporting Guiding principles which then drives:
3. A sporting strategy which then drives:
4. A task-based Sporting Action Plan

I do not believe we currently do not have this or if we do, it is not being applied consistently across the club. So given that the above is hardly splitting the atom stuff, the question is WHY is this not in place?

My view is that ENIC are unwilling to do the above because it would expose the very core of their strategy which is PURPORT to being a big club, without putting in the required investment on an ongoing basis. This isnt said in a nasty way, but more because, over time, they believe that the biggest bang for ENIC's buck is NOT THFC imo. I believe their strategy is for THFC to be just one division of a wider Sports & Entertainment portfolio in which Football, Rugby, NFL (via a London-based franchise), Concerts and other major public events.

In this respect, as long as THFC is SEEN to be a big club (amazing stadium/facilities, high profile manager, England players, CL/EL regularly) then ENIC are happy because that is what will keep the football side ticking over, while they invest in other high growth areas (NFL, Concerts, Real Estate etc).

With this lens, I feel that everything ENIC does is for show. We were on a terrible run when Poch was sacked, which threatened our appearance as a Top 6 club, which is why ENIC acted. They needed the veneer of being a big club so hired a big name (Jose), with little to no thought on the suitability and so it continued until we hired Conte and then are not CONISTENTLY addressing the issues of the squad (not just one off purchases in a couple of windows)

Lastly, Conte does not get absolved from blame. This seasons performances have been an abomination. However, to me, the reason is less about formation or tactics but more that the turd he did such a magical job with last season, can no longer be polished.

TLDR: The manager may change but very little else will, because where we are is exactly where ENIC are happy for us to be. ENIC GTFO of our glorious club!

 

[Yiddo1982]

Levy is a business man he will charge whatever he can get away with for his product same as every other business man.

Sure, but it will turn soon. The extensive season ticket list is no longer in place and people are getting fidgety with the cost of living crisis. A bad end to the season could see us fail to sell out season tickets this summer. The last couple of years we’ve seen new members get offered season tickets. That’s got to be a worry.

 

[Adam456]

Just not true. We’re in a permanent mess. We are going theough top managers at a serious rate. What’s ‘a free pass’?

Bizarre comments

Of course it's true. Look at the squads of some of the clubs in the top 10-12 places and who have beaten us comfortably or we have not been able to beat.

Were we in a mess at the end of last season ? No. Room for improvement but not a 'mess'

Unless English is not your first language then I don't think explaining what is meant by a free pass is going to help you very much

 

[Metalhead]

Well those two might seal his fate seeing it is Arsenal, City, Fulham, City after that. If we fail to beat Palace and lose against Pompey, by start of february we are likely to be quite close to bottom of some 15 game form table and out of both domestic cups heading towards CL exit with Milan coming up next. So guess this week will eventually decide wether Conte has future here or not, even though initial decision probably won't come straight away even if we lose both.

And then back on the appoint-fail to back-team underachieves-coach sacked cycle we go. In fact, even better, maybe Fabio goes and then Levy decides to revert back to overseeing things again with a transfer committee. Can't wait.

 

[Derryank]

I would much rather we stick with the manager. The idea that we can fix everything with a new guy in charge is fantastical. But...the manager has to do his part as well, and currently I just don't see what Conte is adding at all. What is he doing that any other manager in the league couldn't do?

You forget Nuno ball already....