Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

[Timberwolf]

If Poch was to come back the first thing we’d need to do is go all in on James Maddison.

He'd certainly suit a Poch 4-2-3-1. Are there any other top 6/7 clubs that would be competing for his signature? Newcastle seem the obvious one but beyond them I don't think he's got an obvious starting spot at Arsenal, Chelsea, City, United or Liverpool.

 

[newbie]

If Jose and Conte can't get that out of Daniel, I doubt anyone can tbh.

I think our recruiting is more of an issue than our spending, we need to identify the right players and have a succession plan, not to mention clear strategy. (And levy’s drawn out haggling).


My gripes with levy there seems a lack of forward planning, he doesn’t seem to get our identity, we hold on to underperforming players far to long.

I’m not sure if clubs all have this huge pot of money

Chelsea and city a side, Liverpool have a negative net spend and got lucky with coutino £150 million, sterling 50 million, Torrres £50, Suarez etc they sold big, the difference is then invested well.

Arsenal, cleared out all there bad players had a small squad, so they had Money to spend and brought though good young players from there accademy plus brought well.

Basically both used our model, better than we did and gave time to there managers to build.

We have 30-35 first team players, and I would argue 5 or 6 if son comes in to form are good enough, plus a few good young players. Really we could sell 10-15 players buy 5 or 6 and be stronger

Our squad is to big,

4 Right backs (till we released one)
5 left backs

2 of our most expensive players on loan.

We just need to clear out players, have a long term identity, and recruit better.

Recruiting is easier said than done, players need time, and every club makes a mess of it, it’s hard to get it right for long periodes.

 

[wrd]

I think our recruiting is more of an issue than our spending, we need to identify the right players and have a succession plan, not to mention clear strategy.

It genuinely shocks me that for a board that insists that spending money isn't a direct correlation with success that we don't have the best scouting department in the world. I mean this earnestly, it perfectly aligns with their values, how have we not got the quite literal absolute best and most advanced scouting and data analysis team on the planet when our model is clear.

 

[Guntz]

He'd certainly suit a Poch 4-2-3-1. Are there any other top 6/7 clubs that would be competing for his signature? Newcastle seem the obvious one but beyond them I don't think he's got an obvious starting spot at Arsenal, Chelsea, City, United or Liverpool.

City were linked earlier this month.

If that's true you would imagine we have 0 chance.

If it's just Newcastle though, I fancy our chances.

City are interested in signing Leicester's Maddison this summer

JACK GAUGHAN AND TOM COLLOMOSSE: City hold an interest in Jude Bellingham but have also identified Maddison, with Pep Guardiola wanting more goals from those behind Erling Haaland.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Timberwolf]

City were linked earlier this month.

If that's true you would imagine we have 0 chance.

If it's just Newcastle though, I fancy our chances.

City are interested in signing Leicester's Maddison this summer

JACK GAUGHAN AND TOM COLLOMOSSE: City hold an interest in Jude Bellingham but have also identified Maddison, with Pep Guardiola wanting more goals from those behind Erling Haaland.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I actually almost qualified my post saying you never know with City and Chelsea as they're always up for stacking their squad with players like Maddison regardless of whether he'll start very often.

 

[Guntz]

I actually almost qualified my post saying you never know with City and Chelsea as they're always up for stacking their squad with players like Maddison regardless of whether he'll start very often.

Yup, just look at Kalvin Phillips.

 

[carpediem991]

While its always out there that we are not backing Conte enough I was thinking about his (and paraticis in our case) recruiting.

Obviously we had success with Deki and Bentancur, but how can we actually spend around 150m since then and it looks like no one will start our return leg in the CL bar the loan guy Lenglet and back up keeper Forster.
Richarlison, Bissouma, Perisic, Porro, Danjuma all to make the bench if not injured and Spence already out on loan.

And then I looked at his purchases at Chelsea while he was there. And god I hope for him he was not involved too much in what they got there: Drinkwater, Bakayoko, Morata, Zappacosta, Emerson, Barkley.... only Rüdiger and Giroud made the cut.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

It genuinely shocks me that for a board that insists that spending money isn't a direct correlation with success that we don't have the best scouting department in the world. I mean this earnestly, it perfectly aligns with their values, how have we not got the quite literal absolute best and most advanced scouting and data analysis team on the planet when our model is clear.

I agree but surely employing Paratici and allowing him to totally restructure our recruitment team was move in this direction?

 

[dagraham]

Why do that when you have N'dombele and Lo Celso desperate to come back for a fresh start....?

Don’t even go there

 

[Ghost Hardware]

Why do that when you have N'dombele and Lo Celso desperate to come back for a fresh start....?

You joke but i honestly wouldn't be surprised if Lo Celso was given another shot if Poch came back.

 

[wrd]

I agree but surely employing Paratici and allowing him to totally restructure our recruitment team was move in this direction?

Yeah I think Gill and Sarr (and Spence imo) are testament to that, I must admit I'm hoping for Mahrez/Kante/Mitoma style recruitment to be the next level (Kim Min Jae could have been it) but I agree Paratici was certainly a moving things in the right direction, I think my issue is I lack clarity on what is going on with Paratici to have confidence of where we're heading at the moment, so it's difficult to look at it as a journey to that position.

 

[Timberwolf]

While its always out there that we are not backing Conte enough I was thinking about his (and paraticis in our case) recruiting.

Obviously we had success with Deki and Bentancur, but how can we actually spend around 150m since then and it looks like no one will start our return leg in the CL bar the loan guy Lenglet and back up keeper Forster.
Richarlison, Bissouma, Perisic, Porro, Danjuma all to make the bench if not injured and Spence already out on loan.

And then I looked at his purchases at Chelsea while he was there. And god I hope for him he was not involved too much in what they got there: Drinkwater, Bakayoko, Morata, Zappacosta, Emerson, Barkley.... only Rüdiger and Giroud made the cut.

I see where you're coming from but context is important. You can hardly blame the recruitment team for Bissouma being injured, Porro barely having his foot through the door and Perisic needing a rest (although I think he very likely starts vs Milan). Danjuma was also clearly bought as short term cover and not really expected to start a game like that.

That said, I do think that Conte has a big problem with rotation and basically won't rotate his preferred 11 at all unless he really has to. I would hope that we'd see a lot more of Richarlison and Bissouma especially under a new manager as he's not got close to realising either of their potential, while Porro will obviously come into the team more soon.

As for the Chelsea signings - they also brought in Kante, Luiz and Alonso who were all successes and massive parts of the title winning team in his first season. From what I can recall their inability to sign his chosen targets in his second season was actually a huge part of the reason why he left. I don't think he was too happy with the signings you listed either.

 

[newbie]

It genuinely shocks me that for a board that insists that spending money isn't a direct correlation with success that we don't have the best scouting department in the world. I mean this earnestly, it perfectly aligns with their values, how have we not got the quite literal absolute best and most advanced scouting and data analysis team on the planet when our model is clear.

And a youth plan

 

[Timberwolf]

Was just thinking for all the talk of Conte improving players, has he had the best team in the league everywhere he's actually been a success?

His Chelsea team had two world class players in peak Hazard and Kante, along with other fantastic players like Courtois, Fabregas, Costa and Matic. It probably was, pound for pound, the best squad in the league at the time and most of them had won the league already 2 seasons before. We had a very good team but no proven league winners like they had, while Liverpool and City were in seasons of transition. Things pretty quickly fell apart once they had European distractions, City stepped it up under Pep and he lost his one reliable CF in Costa.

At Inter they certainly had the best squad by the time he won the league. Invested big in the likes of Lukaku, Sanchez, Eriksen, etc plus had Hakimi, Martinez, Barella, Bastoni, etc. Juve were struggling under Pirlo and Milan weren't yet at the races.

I guess his most lauded success was his first season at Juve where he won them the title after coming 7th the previous season. But once again they had no Europe to worry about and a fucking great squad: Buffon, Chiellini, Bonnucci, Pirlo, Luca Toni, Del Piero, Vidal, Vucinic - that squad was absolutely stacked with talent.

Like, he's clearly an excellent manager and not everyone would've achieved what he did at those clubs, but it does put things into perspective a bit. Was he ever really going to elevate our squad in the way we were initially hoping without us buying half a squad of world class players? And should we need to buy half a squad of world class players for a manager to succeed?

 

[carpediem991]

I see where you're coming from but context is important. You can hardly blame the recruitment team for Bissouma being injured, Porro barely having his foot through the door and Perisic needing a rest (although I think he very likely starts vs Milan). Danjuma was also clearly bought as short term cover and not really expected to start a game like that.

That said, I do think that Conte has a big problem with rotation and basically won't rotate his preferred 11 at all unless he really has to. I would hope that we'd see a lot more of Richarlison and Bissouma especially under a new manager as he's not got close to realising either of their potential, while Porro will obviously come into the team more soon.

As for the Chelsea signings - they also brought in Kante, Luiz and Alonso who were all successes and massive parts of the title winning team in his first season. From what I can recall their inability to sign his chosen targets in his second season was actually a huge part of the reason why he left. I don't think he was too happy with the signings you listed either.

I actually still think Bissouma and Richarlison or even Perisic are very reasonable purchases. It makes sense in many ways. But isn't it more worrying that so far we struggle to integrate them so they are a bigger part in the process? Of course it has different reasons for them not kicking really kicking on but I think its also due to squad management, as you mentioned. Its similar with good ballers like Gil, Sarr, Skipp or maybe even Spence (who knows?). There is talent there to use I feel. Maybe not so much in central defense...

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Was just thinking for all the talk of Conte improving players, has he had the best team in the league everywhere he's actually been a success?

His Chelsea team had two world class players in peak Hazard and Kante, along with other fantastic players like Courtois, Fabregas, Costa and Matic. It probably was, pound for pound, the best squad in the league at the time and most of them had won the league already 2 seasons before. We had a very good team but no proven league winners like they had, while Liverpool and City were in seasons of transition. Things pretty quickly fell apart once they had European distractions, City stepped it up under Pep and he lost his one reliable CF in Costa.

At Inter they certainly had the best squad by the time he won the league. Invested big in the likes of Lukaku, Sanchez, Eriksen, etc plus had Hakimi, Martinez, Barella, Bastoni, etc. Juve were struggling under Pirlo and Milan weren't yet at the races.

I guess his most lauded success was his first season at Juve where he won them the title after coming 7th the previous season. But once again they had no Europe to worry about and a fucking great squad: Buffon, Chiellini, Bonnucci, Pirlo, Luca Toni, Del Piero, Vidal, Vucinic - that squad was absolutely stacked with talent.

Like, he's clearly an excellent manager and not everyone would've achieved what he did at those clubs, but it does put things into perspective a bit. Was he ever really going to elevate our squad in the way we were initially hoping without us buying half a squad of world class players? And should we need to buy half a squad of world class players for a manager to succeed?

Well written post, but this is assuming our squad didn’t need any world class Additions before he arrived, and it did.

This squad needed complete overhauling when he signed for us, it’s been in need of surgery since Poch’s last days.

We simply cannot forget that. The teams around us have consistently added to their squads in terms of quality and cover, where we seem to always be left short in one department or even both at times.

Its not that Conte needed world class players to win something with us, it’s that Tottenham needed world class players just to keep up.

 

[newbie]

Was just thinking for all the talk of Conte improving players, has he had the best team in the league everywhere he's actually been a success?

His Chelsea team had two world class players in peak Hazard and Kante, along with other fantastic players like Courtois, Fabregas, Costa and Matic. It probably was, pound for pound, the best squad in the league at the time and most of them had won the league already 2 seasons before. We had a very good team but no proven league winners like they had, while Liverpool and City were in seasons of transition. Things pretty quickly fell apart once they had European distractions, City stepped it up under Pep and he lost his one reliable CF in Costa.

At Inter they certainly had the best squad by the time he won the league. Invested big in the likes of Lukaku, Sanchez, Eriksen, etc plus had Hakimi, Martinez, Barella, Bastoni, etc. Juve were struggling under Pirlo and Milan weren't yet at the races.

I guess his most lauded success was his first season at Juve where he won them the title after coming 7th the previous season. But once again they had no Europe to worry about and a fucking great squad: Buffon, Chiellini, Bonnucci, Pirlo, Luca Toni, Del Piero, Vidal, Vucinic - that squad was absolutely stacked with talent.

Like, he's clearly an excellent manager and not everyone would've achieved what he did at those clubs, but it does put things into perspective a bit. Was he ever really going to elevate our squad in the way we were initially hoping without us buying half a squad of world class players? And should we need to buy half a squad of world class players for a manager to succeed?

Easy to say, but he wins we have had great teams and the chance but not managed it

Tbf we needed a bit of investment

Great managers win trophies its to say it’s luck, or you could argue luck is half opportunity half preparation!

Out to mention our shite defence and goalie giving gifts makes really holds us back

 

[Timberwolf]

Well written post, but this is assuming our squad didn’t need any world class Additions before he arrived, and it did.

This squad needed complete overhauling when he signed for us, it’s been in need of surgery since Poch’s last days.

We simply cannot forget that. The teams around us have consistently added to their squads in terms of quality and cover, where we seem to always be left short in one department or even both at times.

Its not that Conte needed world class players to win something with us, it’s that Tottenham needed world class players just to keep up.

Yeah completely agree. Our squad was miles off it and Conte did great last season. Massive investment was required regardless.

I guess I'm just questioning that overriding narrative surrounding him when he came in that he could work magic with any team and turn bog-standard players into world beaters. He's defo done that with a few players like Moses, Giancarrini and others, but there's less discussion around his consistent need for a very strong core of the worlds best players.

There are many managers that can overachieve with squads and don't NEED world class players to succeed. Those managers might not win the league, but they'd probably have been more suited to a club like Spurs that was never going to buy Conte the core of world-class players he requires beyond Kane and Son who were already here.

 

[Trix]

Yeah completely agree. Our squad was miles off it and Conte did great last season. Massive investment was required regardless.

I guess I'm just questioning that overriding narrative surrounding him when he came in that he could work magic with any team and turn bog-standard players into world beaters. He's defo done that with a few players like Moses, Giancarrini and others, but there's less discussion around his consistent need for a very strong core of the worlds best players.

There are many managers that can overachieve with squads and don't NEED world class players to succeed. Those managers might not win the league, but they'd probably have been more suited to a club like Spurs that was never going to buy Conte the core of world-class players he requires beyond Kane and Son who were already here.

This whole thing doesn't need an in depth autopsy as to what is wrong.


The part of your post in bold is spot on so why appoint him? We all knew the score prior to his arrival. The only question that needs answering is how did the people running a "big six" Premier league club for 2 decades not know this, and if they did why did they appoint him anyway? Even the biggest stalwart of Levy apologists haven't managed to answer this question even though I've asked it over and over in replies to their posts.

 

[wpd659]

I think our recruiting is more of an issue than our spending, we need to identify the right players and have a succession plan, not to mention clear strategy. (And levy’s drawn out haggling).


My gripes with levy there seems a lack of forward planning, he doesn’t seem to get our identity, we hold on to underperforming players far to long.

I’m not sure if clubs all have this huge pot of money

Chelsea and city a side, Liverpool have a negative net spend and got lucky with coutino £150 million, sterling 50 million, Torrres £50, Suarez etc they sold big, the difference is then invested well.

Arsenal, cleared out all there bad players had a small squad, so they had Money to spend and brought though good young players from there accademy plus brought well.

Basically both used our model, better than we did and gave time to there managers to build.

We have 30-35 first team players, and I would argue 5 or 6 if son comes in to form are good enough, plus a few good young players. Really we could sell 10-15 players buy 5 or 6 and be stronger

Our squad is to big,

4 Right backs (till we released one)
5 left backs

2 of our most expensive players on loan.

We just need to clear out players, have a long term identity, and recruit better.

Recruiting is easier said than done, players need time, and every club makes a mess of it, it’s hard to get it right for long periodes.

It’s not down to the identification of players, or suitable players recommended by the scouting teams and analysts. There is always a good list of players they recommend from up and coming players to first team ready.
FP, the manager and Board, then decide if they want to act on this info or go for the players that have been offered by agents or players the manager/FP want.
Trying to move on players is hard if they don’t want to leave, or don’t have better offers elsewhere.